292 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

[Isichar]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Haha

Context is my biatch, its only function is to serve as an argument for my own convenience.

[Dr_Extrem]

LucasShark wrote...
As for homophobia: that is simply the way of things in the US unfortunately.

this is not only a problem in the usa .. in russia, you have a hard time being gay .. i know this from my russian workmates (they are not gay).

the strange thing is, that  it is broadly accepted. in germany. at least the cities. we have a gay foreign minister and several high ranking politicians are openly gay. 

but still, there is lots of room for improvement. granting gay marriage the same financial rights is a step that should be done.


the sheer ammount of fanfiction, about shepard and lis, should have been a good indication, that a lot of folks are close to their avatar and the characters ingame. this is a risk, if you provide the players with an avatar, that can be shaped by the player, like shepard.

but .. i would like to see the sources for the ops statement.

[Dean_the_Young]

Profanity Beaver wrote...

I'm not complaining about anything here except Bioware's seemingly lack of faith in us as quality fans.

After reading the rampant hyperbole, misguided righteous indignation, and self-serving strawmen of Bioware in your post, I can't imagine why anyone would think of you as a low-quality fan.

[Clayless]

LucasShark wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Also it's rather disturbing that everyone is automatically believing Lucas yet no one has asked him to cite his source. It's just as bad as all those people that went crazy and started giving bad reviews to ME3 before the game came out because of this.

And yet both of the articles I am referring to exist, and complaining about cut corners is entirely relevant.  As for homophobia: that is simply the way of things in the US unfortunately.

The point isn't whether or not those articles exist, it's that you blindly said something without any sources and people automatically believed you for reasons unknown.

I'll ask though, because I don't think anyone else is going to, could you cite your sources?

[3DandBeyond]

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Yes, and a person at Bioware even said we should not get attached to a plot.  So, then in a game that is as much a story as anything else, that focuses on characters, that has a plot that even Bioware said would have all questions answered at the end, there's nothing we should be attached to?

Bioware changes their mind based on either the weather or on a whim.  I can't remember which one (maybe Gamble) that said the reason people were upset with the original endings was because it was the end of Shepard's story.  Ok, no.  That would have been bitter sweet-Shepard saves the day and we have to say goodbye to this character and his/her reality. 

But, then the dev said that and doesn't get it that many are still upset by the gasp scene or the fantastic visuals and closure given to Shepard's that have the skin ripped off of them (or burned off).  Makes so much sense to me.  Apparently they missed the part where people were upset they had problems importing the faces of Shepard's they made, they totally missed the part where Casey Hudson said they used the name of Shepard because of the astronaut Alan Shepard-who they thought was a real hero.  They gave Shepard somewhat real feelings, created somewhat real relationships, all so we would not care.  And apparently these so-called writers never actually took a writing course in their lives because emotional attachment/identification is the A-number one necessity that all writers strive for when creating characters in stories.  In a nutshell, you want the reader to care about the main character and to have attachment.

It's all BS.  They set us up to care, and then when they didn't live up to the fact that we did care, they say we were never supposed to care.  They do this with everything in the game.  If something should happen because the game says it should-fans are dumb to think it ever would happen.  It's Biowareland.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

I remember what lucas was talking about it's the statment from ray Muzyka right?

"the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us"

There were more than one, but yeah that's one of them.

It's amazing how not-close that is to-

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

[Profanity Beaver]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

I remember what lucas was talking about it's the statment from ray Muzyka right?

"the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us"

I can understand how they would be suprised about the nagative reaction to the three choices. I can not understand how they would be suprised about

The long talk with little imput.
Fans not liking Shep just blindly trusting the big orchestrater behind everything that's happened.
The copy and paste feeling of the three supposedly different endings.
The very rushed falling action portion of the plot, Normandy flies for some reason Normandy crashes for some reason, the end!

I try, yet I can not comprehend how they could not concieve of this!

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Wrong.

[SpamBot2000]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Also it's rather disturbing that everyone is automatically believing Lucas yet no one has asked him to cite his source. It's just as bad as all those people that went crazy and started giving bad reviews to ME3 before the game came out because of this.

And yet both of the articles I am referring to exist, and complaining about cut corners is entirely relevant.  As for homophobia: that is simply the way of things in the US unfortunately.

The point isn't whether or not those articles exist, it's that you blindly said something without any sources and people automatically believed you for reasons unknown.

I'll ask though, because I don't think anyone else is going to, could you cite your sources?

Maybe they believed him because they had read those articles themselves. But clearly it's more likely it's just the symptoms of the rabies everyone who doesn't worship at the altar of the Catalyst have obviously been infected with.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 16 décembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[Profanity Beaver]

3DandBeyond wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Yes, and a person at Bioware even said we should not get attached to a plot.  So, then in a game that is as much a story as anything else, that focuses on characters, that has a plot that even Bioware said would have all questions answered at the end, there's nothing we should be attached to?

Bioware changes their mind based on either the weather or on a whim.  I can't remember which one (maybe Gamble) that said the reason people were upset with the original endings was because it was the end of Shepard's story.  Ok, no.  That would have been bitter sweet-Shepard saves the day and we have to say goodbye to this character and his/her reality. 

But, then the dev said that and doesn't get it that many are still upset by the gasp scene or the fantastic visuals and closure given to Shepard's that have the skin ripped off of them (or burned off).  Makes so much sense to me.  Apparently they missed the part where people were upset they had problems importing the faces of Shepard's they made, they totally missed the part where Casey Hudson said they used the name of Shepard because of the astronaut Alan Shepard-who they thought was a real hero.  They gave Shepard somewhat real feelings, created somewhat real relationships, all so we would not care.  And apparently these so-called writers never actually took a writing course in their lives because emotional attachment/identification is the A-number one necessity that all writers strive for when creating characters in stories.  In a nutshell, you want the reader to care about the main character and to have attachment.

It's all BS.  They set us up to care, and then when they didn't live up to the fact that we did care, they say we were never supposed to care.  They do this with everything in the game.  If something should happen because the game says it should-fans are dumb to think it ever would happen.  It's Biowareland.

Very well put!

Also, just think of the poor kid out there who can't connect to Xbox Live to get that face import patch...

Modifié par Profanity Beaver, 16 décembre 2012 - 06:56 .

[3DandBeyond]

The one article that seems to in part address all of this is the David Silverman or Silverstein one (he's the head marketing guy at BW). He said that people would not remember what happened in ME1 and 2, and that it wouldn't matter if you had an LI, because no one would care about that when it's all out war. He said a lot of other things-about it being the entry game into the franchise and so on. But there has been a repeated attempt to downplay the major aspects of the game, such as Shepard as the main character-lack of closure for that character. The failure to remember this is a character driven story so the characters do matter the most. And then the idea that we should not become attached to a plot. Well, you gotta be attached to something.

[Dean_the_Young]

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

I remember what lucas was talking about it's the statment from ray Muzyka right?

"the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us"

I can understand how they would be suprised about the nagative reaction to the three choices. I can not understand how they would be suprised about

The long talk with little imput.

Perhaps because that's not abnormal... especially when they didn't have Shepard professing any belief one way or another.

Fans not liking Shep just blindly trusting the big orchestrater behind everything that's happened.

Besides the staple of Bioware choices?

The copy and paste feeling of the three supposedly different endings.

Again: besides being a staple of Bioware choices?

The very rushed falling action portion of the plot, Normandy flies for some reason Normandy crashes for some reason, the end!

Considering how heavy the symbolism was in the ending sequence, the reason they should be surprised why many could not or would not grasp it is pretty understandable. It's not like the 'life goes on, dawn of a new day' imagery could have been much less subtle.

I try, yet I can not comprehend how they could not concieve of this!

Try harder.

[JamieCOTC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Here's the quote, reposted from a Game Informer interview. Do take it w/ a grain of salt as it may be paraphrased.

"I am happy with how the extended cut turned out. I think we did a
good job of trying to wrap those choices up and reflect that back to the
player in a fair and responsible way. it's a good learning experience
for us in the future, in that you can underestimate how much people
love their characters. So we'll be watching that much more carefully
next time"

From the horses mouth, so to speak, Patrick Weekes defended the auto-dailogue as it made the scenes flow better. Many people feel it was making Shepard more "human" that killed it, and maybe so, but making ME3 more cinematic is just as much to blame.

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

I remember what lucas was talking about it's the statment from ray Muzyka right?

"the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us"

There were more than one, but yeah that's one of them.

It's amazing how not-close that is to-

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

ANd yet you`ll notice I amended that further down?  Or are you being just as disengenious as you are accusing me of being?  Troll.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Wrong.

Well, you've claimed to have two sources backing you up. The first really didn't support you claim in any reasonable way, and could be gently called disingenuous on your part.

Maybe you'll have better luck if you can find that second one.

[Dean_the_Young]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Here's the quote, reposted from a Game Informer interview. Do take it w/ a grain of salt as it may be paraphrased.

"I am happy with how the extended cut turned out. I think we did a
good job of trying to wrap those choices up and reflect that back to the
player in a fair and responsible way. it's a good learning experience
for us in the future, in that you can underestimate how much people
love their characters. So we'll be watching that much more carefully
next time"

From the horses mouth, so to speak, Patrick Weekes defended the auto-dailogue as it made the scenes flow better. Many people feel it was making Shepard more "human" that killed it, and maybe so, but making ME3 more cinematic is just as much to blame.

And unsurprisingly, none of that supports Lucas's claim that Bioware was surprised that players were attached to 'ANY' character.

Now, if Lucas were to claim that Bioware had been surprised by the degree of attachment some people had, that'd be a different claim entirely from what her statement did claim (that there was attachment).

[GreyLycanTrope]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Also it's rather disturbing that everyone is automatically believing Lucas yet no one has asked him to cite his source. It's just as bad as all those people that went crazy and started giving bad reviews to ME3 before the game came out because of this.

You call rampant homophobia a "review"?

[Isichar]

3DandBeyond wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Yes, and a person at Bioware even said we should not get attached to a plot.  So, then in a game that is as much a story as anything else, that focuses on characters, that has a plot that even Bioware said would have all questions answered at the end, there's nothing we should be attached to?

Bioware changes their mind based on either the weather or on a whim.  I can't remember which one (maybe Gamble) that said the reason people were upset with the original endings was because it was the end of Shepard's story.  Ok, no.  That would have been bitter sweet-Shepard saves the day and we have to say goodbye to this character and his/her reality. 

But, then the dev said that and doesn't get it that many are still upset by the gasp scene or the fantastic visuals and closure given to Shepard's that have the skin ripped off of them (or burned off).  Makes so much sense to me.  Apparently they missed the part where people were upset they had problems importing the faces of Shepard's they made, they totally missed the part where Casey Hudson said they used the name of Shepard because of the astronaut Alan Shepard-who they thought was a real hero.  They gave Shepard somewhat real feelings, created somewhat real relationships, all so we would not care.  And apparently these so-called writers never actually took a writing course in their lives because emotional attachment/identification is the A-number one necessity that all writers strive for when creating characters in stories.  In a nutshell, you want the reader to care about the main character and to have attachment.

It's all BS.  They set us up to care, and then when they didn't live up to the fact that we did care, they say we were never supposed to care.  They do this with everything in the game.  If something should happen because the game says it should-fans are dumb to think it ever would happen.  It's Biowareland.

Well when your a writer it becomes increasingly difficult to stay detached from your own work and it becomes important to be able to keep perspective.

When 99.5% of your story goes through a process that is looked over by a group of minds, and then at the last second you decide 1 or 2 people should have complete control over the story it makes sense that many of the perspectives that made so much of the series great would not be present. I am sure Casey Hudson and Mac Walters had the best intentions, and I am willing to admit they had some pretty cool ideas. But they lacked so much perspective as to what was important to the players that when those ideas were executed it ended up falling flat on its face.

I very much doubt that they were surprised people cared about the characters, moreso that people reacted the way they did out of concern over what happened to these characters, since they saw the character arcs as already been finished.

My problem is that the ending basically spits in the face of character arcs I spent multiple games building and nurturing. Spent all that time making peace with the Geth and Qurians but you believe the reapers are wrong? TOO BAD YOU GET AN OFFSCREEN DEATH.

Modifié par Isichar, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:05 .

[Clayless]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The point isn't whether or not those articles exist, it's that you blindly said something without any sources and people automatically believed you for reasons unknown.

I'll ask though, because I don't think anyone else is going to, could you cite your sources?

Maybe they believed him because they had read those articles themselves. But clearly it's more likely it's just the symptoms of the rabies everyone who doesn't worship at the altar of the Catalyst have obviously been infected with.

If that were the case they wouldn't be so shocked by his post. I have no idea what you're going on about in your second sentence.

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Wrong.

Well, you've claimed to have two sources backing you up. The first really didn't support you claim in any reasonable way, and could be gently called disingenuous on your part.

Maybe you'll have better luck if you can find that second one.

I'd like to point out exactly what it is you are asking me to do: troll the entire internet for a year old article which has long since been washed to the bottom of archives un der ending responses.

And quite frankly: screw you for taking about me like that, I feel no compulsion to justify myself to you, you in particular: who has repeatedly derailed multiple threads on purpose.

Modifié par LucasShark, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[Clayless]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Also it's rather disturbing that everyone is automatically believing Lucas yet no one has asked him to cite his source. It's just as bad as all those people that went crazy and started giving bad reviews to ME3 before the game came out because of this.

You call rampant homophobia a "review"?

Unfortunately everyone can give reviews on games on the net these days. I saw many a comment about that very post on the net in the very early days of ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

I remember what lucas was talking about it's the statment from ray Muzyka right?

"the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us"

There were more than one, but yeah that's one of them.

It's amazing how not-close that is to-

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

ANd yet you`ll notice I amended that further down?  Or are you being just as disengenious as you are accusing me of being?

If you're referring to-

LucasShark wrote...

iakus wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Given
there's whole section of the forum devoted specifically to the
characters in the ME3 games (sadly burned to the ground following ME3) I
find this both stunning and rather disturbing.

There was a few of them I can recall, and I don't even follow Bioware's statements that closely:
-
One was in reference to the creation of ME2's story where they found it
suprising people liked Garrus and Tali over some of the human
characters
- The next was only a few days ago where someone remarked
at how astonished they were about how attached people were to the caste
(and apparently that was a problem)

Then no: that's not an amendment to your original point. Nor did I see anything else that either supported or elaborated the claim you made, as opposed to making separate claims.

Troll.

Me thinks the person who can't be bothered to support their claim of a dev opinion should be a bit more cautious in slinging that around, unless you consider being asked to defend your argument trollish.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Wrong.

Well, you've claimed to have two sources backing you up. The first really didn't support you claim in any reasonable way, and could be gently called disingenuous on your part.

Maybe you'll have better luck if you can find that second one.

I'd like to point out exactly what it is you are asking me to do: troll the entire internet for a year old article which has long since been washed to the bottom of archives un der ending responses.

If you're willing to make a loaded claim as to a specific quote or positions (which you have), and then refuse all challenges to the claim on the basis of a source, then you should be willing to provide that source. Otherwise your claim is hear-say, nothing more.

Now, you've currently had half the work done for you with someone else providing a source for a conversation your referenced... which didn't support your position at all. Certainly you can be asked to do half the work on your own behalf?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:18 .