292 réponses à ce sujet

[Profanity Beaver]

Hey peeps! This subject means a lot to me and I feel very passionate about it.

I don't want this thread to devolve down into mindless arguing about nothing. I really value differing opinions that challenge what I believe, but that is not what's happening here.

Please, let's keep discussing, but let's try to tone donww the overly long argument posts and let's not mindlessly rip apart everything someone says just because we disagree with them, take a second to think about it, perhaps one or two of the things they've said might make some sense, or perhaps it won't. You can't know for sure until you consider the options, just like our hero Shepard.

[Fixers0]

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

[Profanity Beaver]

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

Yes! Back to business! The game is so awesome so juch of the time, but these moments just hurt me as a player. I'm really devoted to Shepard and the universe. Those two things take that devotion I've been pouring up to Biioware and pisses on it.

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Wrong.

Well, you've claimed to have two sources backing you up. The first really didn't support you claim in any reasonable way, and could be gently called disingenuous on your part.

Maybe you'll have better luck if you can find that second one.

I'd like to point out exactly what it is you are asking me to do: troll the entire internet for a year old article which has long since been washed to the bottom of archives un der ending responses.

If you're willing to make a loaded claim as to a specific quote or positions (which you have), and then refuse all challenges to the claim on the basis of a source, then you should be willing to provide that source. Otherwise your claim is hear-say, nothing more.

Now, you've currently had half the work done for you with someone else providing a source... which didn't support your position at all. Certainly you can be asked to do half the world on your own behalf?

DO YOU THINK I KEEP A MENTAL NOTE OF THE PRECISE LOCATION EVERY SINGLE SODDING ARTICLE I HAVE READ OVER THE PAST 4 YEARS!?

No, no human on earth does that.  I am looking, I have read it, I don't remember where specifically.  The fact that you call me a liar and a fraud for simply referring to something I've read with Bioware's stamp on it is insulting.  you after you have repeatedly done this to multiple threads I have been on.  yolu who take every opritunity to be a complete jerk to anyone who's opinions or views do not align with yours.

I have now been through 8 google pages: I cannot find ANY articles with "Mass effect" in the name which are not to do with the ending, positive or negative.

Modifié par LucasShark, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
Unfortunately everyone can give reviews on games on the net these days. I saw many a comment about that very post on the net in the very early days of ME3.

Yeah homosexuality is still controversial, unfortunantly, that was the topic of discussion back then, those weren't game reviews, they were commentary.

[AresKeith]

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

Yes! Back to business! The game is so awesome so juch of the time, but these moments just hurt me as a player. I'm really devoted to Shepard and the universe. Those two things take that devotion I've been pouring up to Biioware and pisses on it.

There's also things that could have been in the game but wasn't because of time and possibly resources

[Profanity Beaver]

AresKeith wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

Yes! Back to business! The game is so awesome so juch of the time, but these moments just hurt me as a player. I'm really devoted to Shepard and the universe. Those two things take that devotion I've been pouring up to Biioware and pisses on it.

There's also things that could have been in the game but wasn't because of time and possibly resources

I really do understand and sympethize with bioware over lack of time and money, I just don't understand why this was lumped under acceptable losses. Is it cause they know we'll buy it all anyways because we're so attached? That's just plain cruel...

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

DO YOU THINK I KEEP A MENTAL NOTE OF THE PRECISE LOCATION EVERY SINGLE SODDING ARTICLE I HAVE READ OVER THE PAST 4 YEARS!?

I think you could be asked to remember what an article actually said rather than spout a heavily-biased paraphrase... especially when the article is within the last year.

Likewise, I think you could stand to conduct yourself with a modicrum of poise and self-control.

No, no human on earth does that.  I am looking, I have read it, I don't remember where specifically.  The fact that you call me a liar and a fraud for simply referring to something I've read with Bioware's stamp on it is insulting.  you after you have repeatedly done this to multiple threads I have been on.  yolu who take every opritunity to be a complete jerk to anyone who's opinions or views do not align with yours.

Hear-say and disingenuous are not calling you a liar and a fraud, they are calling your position wrong and misleading. I have contested the accuracy of your claims, but the only damage to your character has come from your manner and over-reactions such as here.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:26 .

[MegaSovereign]

I'm just as surprised people are attached to Shepard. He/She is not a defined character and definitely not the highlight of the series.

I was more attached to my squadmates.

[Doctor_is_in]

Profanity Beaver wrote...

I think we also often forget the fact that they released a gane where you could not import your character's face into the game. One of the biggest draws about it for returning fans.

I believe their response was, "Meh, jus' make a new one."

Just think of the poor kid out there who can't connect to Xbox Live to get that patch...

The face import glitch could have been easily avoided had BioWare not gotten lazy with character creation. And the patch didn't even fix the problem.

Modifié par Doctor_is_in, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:28 .

[Profanity Beaver]

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Wrong.

Well, you've claimed to have two sources backing you up. The first really didn't support you claim in any reasonable way, and could be gently called disingenuous on your part.

Maybe you'll have better luck if you can find that second one.

I'd like to point out exactly what it is you are asking me to do: troll the entire internet for a year old article which has long since been washed to the bottom of archives un der ending responses.

If you're willing to make a loaded claim as to a specific quote or positions (which you have), and then refuse all challenges to the claim on the basis of a source, then you should be willing to provide that source. Otherwise your claim is hear-say, nothing more.

Now, you've currently had half the work done for you with someone else providing a source... which didn't support your position at all. Certainly you can be asked to do half the world on your own behalf?

DO YOU THINK I KEEP A MENTAL NOTE OF THE PRECISE LOCATION EVERY SINGLE SODDING ARTICLE I HAVE READ OVER THE PAST 4 YEARS!?

No, no human on earth does that.  I am looking, I have read it, I don't remember where specifically.  The fact that you call me a liar and a fraud for simply referring to something I've read with Bioware's stamp on it is insulting.  you after you have repeatedly done this to multiple threads I have been on.  yolu who take every opritunity to be a complete jerk to anyone who's opinions or views do not align with yours.

I have now been through 8 google pages: I cannot find ANY articles with "Mass effect" in the name which are not to do with the ending, positive or negative.

Ignore that Dean guy. He just wants to get a rise out of you, don't give him the satisfaction. I think you've contributed positivly to this thread and I believe you don't have to prove anything.

This is a thread for nerdy fans to talk about stuffs, not a ****ing college essay! I don't care about sourcing!!!

[Profanity Beaver]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm just as surprised people are attached to Shepard. He/She is not a defined character and definitely not the highlight of the series.

I was more attached to my squadmates.

I defined him with the tools they gave me.

Then they took those tools away...

[spirosz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm just as surprised people are attached to Shepard. He/She is not a defined character and definitely not the highlight of the series.

I was more attached to my squadmates.

Same, that's why I was upset when ME3 hit and I saw what they did to the lot of them. 

[LucasShark]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

DO YOU THINK I KEEP A MENTAL NOTE OF THE PRECISE LOCATION EVERY SINGLE SODDING ARTICLE I HAVE READ OVER THE PAST 4 YEARS!?

I think you could be asked to remember what an article actually said rather than spout a heavily-biased paraphrase... especially when the article is within the last year.

Likewise, I think you could stand to conduct yourself with a modicrum of poise and self-control.

No, no human on earth does that.  I am looking, I have read it, I don't remember where specifically.  The fact that you call me a liar and a fraud for simply referring to something I've read with Bioware's stamp on it is insulting.  you after you have repeatedly done this to multiple threads I have been on.  yolu who take every opritunity to be a complete jerk to anyone who's opinions or views do not align with yours.

Hear-say and disingenuous are not calling you a liar and a fraud, they are calling your position wrong and misleading. I have contested the accuracy of your claims, but the only damage to your character has come from your manner and over-reactions such as here.

And yet if I bring up words which are not word for word what is written there you will call me a fraud for citing a source incorrectly.

Here is the sentiment from the articles I have read, I cannot find them because google is swamped with ending content, but here it is, if this is not good enough for you, too bad:
- The oldest, in reference to the creation of mass effect 2, stated suprise that players were at all attached to Tali and Garrus rather than the human cast.
- The next few were more recently, and in reference to Mass Effect 3: that once again, expressed suprise at the attachment players had to a cast of characters
- Another pointed out here, stated "don't get too attached to plot"

This is bad, this does not demonstrate understanding of writers craft.

[Dean_the_Young]

Profanity Beaver wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

Yes! Back to business! The game is so awesome so juch of the time, but these moments just hurt me as a player. I'm really devoted to Shepard and the universe. Those two things take that devotion I've been pouring up to Biioware and pisses on it.

There's also things that could have been in the game but wasn't because of time and possibly resources

I really do understand and sympethize with bioware over lack of time and money, I just don't understand why this was lumped under acceptable losses. Is it cause they know we'll buy it all anyways because we're so attached? That's just plain cruel...

Or it could be because it's fiction. At the end of the day none of it is real, life goes on, and they were going to move on past Shepard's trilogy anyway. Why over-compensate?

Just what, for example, would constitute 'unacceptable losses' that hasn't been already done? The EC salved most of the uproar. IT-advocates have self-marginalized, and were never a particularly credible narrative alternative. Nine months later, new releases and new prospects are dominating gamer attention, and a good portion of the anti-ending lingering sentiment is from the same few dozen of people posting regular and consistent variations of the same views and clais.

[Clayless]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
Unfortunately everyone can give reviews on games on the net these days. I saw many a comment about that very post on the net in the very early days of ME3.

Yeah homosexuality is still controversial, unfortunantly, that was the topic of discussion back then, those weren't game reviews, they were commentary.

Kinda looks like a review if you ask me, and that one wasn't as bad as most other "LOL GAY DATING SIM" reviews.

Strangely I think a lot of them have been deleted by whoever mods that site, the only other comment I can find is someone commenting on all the bad reviews just about the gay romances, so that confirms they at least existed at some point.

[LucasShark]

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

This is something I touched on on my "a run through the first 2 missions and the problems there-in" thread.  The introduction of auto-dialogue, along with the nerfing of the dialogue wheel system, introduction of relationships out of player control, and focus on action over story, forms a mutant conglomerate problem with ME3.  That is: we are no longer in control over Shepard, he is no longer our avatar in a universe we are participating in.  He is now limping along with poor characterization as his own character, and all we are are little furies on his shoulders: poking him toward wrath or compassion.  This is a fundamental shift from the stance taken in ME1 or ME2, where we rode in Shepard's head instead of on his shoulder.

[Iakus]

LucasShark wrote...


Here is the sentiment from the articles I have read, I cannot find them because google is swamped with ending content, but here it is, if this is not good enough for you, too bad:
- The oldest, in reference to the creation of mass effect 2, stated suprise that players were at all attached to Tali and Garrus rather than the human cast.
- The next few were more recently, and in reference to Mass Effect 3: that once again, expressed suprise at the attachment players had to a cast of characters
- Another pointed out here, stated "don't get too attached to plot"

This is bad, this does not demonstrate understanding of writers craft.

The first one I can help with:

gamerlimit.com/2009/12/roundtable-interview-mass-effect-2-project-director-casey-hudson/

The inclusion of characters from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2 was done as previously mentioned both to continue the story and because of the fans liking some of these characters. Which of these characters were your favorite and least favorite?The great thing about the way we do our cast of characters is that we try to make sure that they’re all different from one another, and, to us, a success is if a character is loved and hated. Then, it presents a choice. If there are people that love a certain character, and other people hate that character, then we know that have a pretty unique character and it’s kind of inspiring some controversy, or at least decision making as a player you decide whether you like a certain character.I think the ones that were more universally liked were characters like Wrex, Garrus was kind of a surprise. He’s a fairly laid back and cool, by the book guy. He wasn’t necessarily someone we expected to be a standout, but he’s pretty universally liked. Liara was well liked. Probably the most debated character, as to whether people like him or not, was Kaiden. I think a lot of people left Kaiden to die on the nuke decision on Virmire. I think that was an easy decision for a lot of people, between Kaiden and Ashley. As a character, there are a lot of people who loved Kaiden, andnas a love interest, I know there are a lot of people who have expressed a real interest in having Kaiden back, they really want to see Kaiden come back and be a part of the story.The other one that was interesting was Tali. Tali is kind of an alternative character, she’s an alien, she’s mysterious, you can’t really see what she looks like. At one point I think we were considering whether she should be a love interest in Mass Effect 1, and I remember people saying, “no, people aren’t gonna wanna have a romance with a girl with chicken feet.” But, chicken feet didn’t really bother anyone.

The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

Modifié par iakus, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[Profanity Beaver]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

Yes! Back to business! The game is so awesome so juch of the time, but these moments just hurt me as a player. I'm really devoted to Shepard and the universe. Those two things take that devotion I've been pouring up to Biioware and pisses on it.

There's also things that could have been in the game but wasn't because of time and possibly resources

I really do understand and sympethize with bioware over lack of time and money, I just don't understand why this was lumped under acceptable losses. Is it cause they know we'll buy it all anyways because we're so attached? That's just plain cruel...

Or it could be because it's fiction. At the end of the day none of it is real, life goes on, and they were going to move on past Shepard's trilogy anyway. Why over-compensate?

Just what, for example, would constitute 'unacceptable losses' that hasn't been already done? The EC salved most of the uproar. IT-advocates have self-marginalized, and were never a particularly credible narrative alternative. Nine months later, new releases and new prospects are dominating gamer attention, and a good portion of the anti-ending lingering sentiment is from the same few dozen of people posting regular and consistent variations of the same views and clais.

Alright Mr. Thesaurus open in the next tab, you're mindless retaliation towards whatever the popular opinon happens to be is tedious and tiresome, and it reveals the constant need for attention festering inside you.

You're laughably childish usage of the english language and you're simple minded attempts at portraying yourself intellectually are sad and pathetic.

You sir, come off like a simple minded yokel vainly attempting to pass as a collegiate professor. 

Now please go away before this thread is completely derailed and freakin locked down!

[MegaSovereign]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

Yes! Back to business! The game is so awesome so juch of the time, but these moments just hurt me as a player. I'm really devoted to Shepard and the universe. Those two things take that devotion I've been pouring up to Biioware and pisses on it.

There's also things that could have been in the game but wasn't because of time and possibly resources

I really do understand and sympethize with bioware over lack of time and money, I just don't understand why this was lumped under acceptable losses. Is it cause they know we'll buy it all anyways because we're so attached? That's just plain cruel...

Or it could be because it's fiction. At the end of the day none of it is real, life goes on, and they were going to move on past Shepard's trilogy anyway. Why over-compensate?

Just what, for example, would constitute 'unacceptable losses' that hasn't been already done? The EC salved most of the uproar. IT-advocates have self-marginalized, and were never a particularly credible narrative alternative. Nine months later, new releases and new prospects are dominating gamer attention, and a good portion of the anti-ending lingering sentiment is from the same few dozen of people posting regular and consistent variations of the same views and clais.

I agree but just to play devil's advocate:

The audience that Bioware should cater to during their post-release DLC schedule should be the hardcore fans since they are the ones who still hold interest in the series despite all the other distractions of the year.

I don't agree that EVERY hardcore fan wants to purchase new ending content (I don't), but Omega (for example) has received mixed reviews from both the critics and the fans because it seems to be targetted for a broader audience that isn't even interested ME3 anymore.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Just what, for example, would constitute 'unacceptable losses' that hasn't been already done? The EC salved most of the uproar. IT-advocates have self-marginalized, and were never a particularly credible narrative alternative. Nine months later, new releases and new prospects are dominating gamer attention, and a good portion of the anti-ending lingering sentiment is from the same few dozen of people posting regular and consistent variations of the same views and clais.

I'd say that's a bit of an exageration.  I think time mor ethan anything else, has dulled the uproar (which is still substantial)  At htis point many players that are still unhappy have moved on to other games and other forums.   With EC, Bioware pretty much just ran out the clock until the energy was expended and the rage turned into apathy.

Now the real trick will be getting that apathetic crowd back with the next Biwoare game.  How do you earn back that trust?

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm just as surprised people are attached to Shepard. He/She is not a defined character and definitely not the highlight of the series.

I was more attached to my squadmates.

this heavily depends on your playstyle.

i for instance, see the character as a bridge into the universe. shepard becomes my personification inside the story. the player becomes a participant.

on the other side: a person who sees shepard as the protagonist of an interactive movie, could feel less attached, because this player is mostly the observer of the story.


the protagonist is not always the avatar of a player. some people like to be the observer and in games like max payne and splinter cell, where the protagonist in not very flexible, it works very well.
if your character is shapable by the player, like the avatar in ultima or the warden on dragon age, players who see this person as their avatar, get far more attached to them. this is one of the reasons, hawke was not accepted that well (people were still the gray warden).

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:43 .

[Profanity Beaver]

LucasShark wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

This is something I touched on on my "a run through the first 2 missions and the problems there-in" thread.  The introduction of auto-dialogue, along with the nerfing of the dialogue wheel system, introduction of relationships out of player control, and focus on action over story, forms a mutant conglomerate problem with ME3.  That is: we are no longer in control over Shepard, he is no longer our avatar in a universe we are participating in.  He is now limping along with poor characterization as his own character, and all we are are little furies on his shoulders: poking him toward wrath or compassion.  This is a fundamental shift from the stance taken in ME1 or ME2, where we rode in Shepard's head instead of on his shoulder.

Ha ha! I like the way that's put. If us simple minded fans can think these things I'm sure some big minded bigwig at Bioware must have had a thought like this pop into their head!

[JamieCOTC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

One of bioware's interviews shows they were suprised that we were attached to ANY character, nevermind the protagonist.

Geez! You gotta be kidding!

Not kidding, but wrong. Or at least, removing all context and liberally paraphrasing to shift meaning.

Here's the quote, reposted from a Game Informer interview. Do take it w/ a grain of salt as it may be paraphrased.

"I am happy with how the extended cut turned out. I think we did a
good job of trying to wrap those choices up and reflect that back to the
player in a fair and responsible way. it's a good learning experience
for us in the future, in that you can underestimate how much people
love their characters. So we'll be watching that much more carefully
next time"

From the horses mouth, so to speak, Patrick Weekes defended the auto-dailogue as it made the scenes flow better. Many people feel it was making Shepard more "human" that killed it, and maybe so, but making ME3 more cinematic is just as much to blame.

And unsurprisingly, none of that supports Lucas's claim that Bioware was surprised that players were attached to 'ANY' character.

Now, if Lucas were to claim that Bioware had been surprised by the degree of attachment some people had, that'd be a different claim entirely from what her statement did claim (that there was attachment).

People do tend to make assumptions on the internet. Who would have thought? 

I agree w/ you that the degree of fan attachment caught BW off guard and there could be any number of reasons this happened, writer fatigue, new writers who didn't know the material, rushing it out, etc, etc, etc. And the EC addressed this issue very well, Shep says goodbye to his/her LI, Joker doesn't run off for no apparent reason, and there is closure for the other characters. Hindsight being 20/20 I would bet money that there are some at BW who kick themselves for not putting something like the EC in the original game.

All that said, it is a wonder how two teams from the same comapny can be so different. The DA team gets it. They know fans grow incredibly attatched to the characters and though the writers are going to do what they are going to do, they get it. I don't believe the ME team gets it to the same degree. 

[Linkenski]

Shepards "fleshed-out character" is what made me dislike Mass Effect 3 even before the ending. Sure it IS a good game, and i even like some bits of the endings. To me autodialogue just stopped me from enjoying the rest of the game. I was constantly thinking, in almost every mission, stuff like "What, no! I would never have said that" and "you're being a renegade againnnn....."

I think saying that Bioware doesn't have a clue when it comes to reading their fanbase, i'd say you are WRONG. The thing about Shepard is a slip-up, and i don't think the whole team necessarily agreed on it, but seriously we got just about all the romances we wanted, we got Thane's death scene, which was very requested and they even did something to make the endings better.

I know most people are still overall dissatisfied with even the Extended Cut, and it's totally understandable because the endings are fundamentally flawed no matter what argument you throw at us, but it was a dilemma for Bioware if they should change the endings completely to our wants, and completely diminish themselves as game developers and artists. Video games are on the brink of being considered art right now, and even if that entire topic is controversial, it would just be a punch to the face of that claim, if bioware just completely changed the endings.

They do listen to their fanbase, even more than they should in my opinion.