292 réponses à ce sujet

[mnomaha]

If some of the ME2 squad were considered "babies"...well, I guess some people were either not meant to be parents or should never consider breeding.

[Dean_the_Young]

LucasShark wrote...

And yet if I bring up words which are not word for word what is written there you will call me a fraud for citing a source incorrectly.

Incorrect. I have neither called you a fraud, or challenged you for not being verbetum, or even discounted you for not citing a source correctly. 

Here is the sentiment from the articles I have read, I cannot find them because google is swamped with ending content, but here it is, if this is not good enough for you, too bad:
- The oldest, in reference to the creation of mass effect 2, stated suprise that players were at all attached to Tali and Garrus rather than the human cast.

This claim does not support your position. Besides the obvious openings for a mis-remembering on your part (subtituting 'at all' with 'more', for example), even at the most literal this only supports Bioware being surprised at the attachment to two characters... not any character, and the protagonist.

- The next few were more recently, and in reference to Mass Effect 3: that once again, expressed suprise at the attachment players had to a cast of characters

Surprise at the attachment players had to a cast of characters at all? You can pretty easily find dev quotes from pre-production in which they acknowledge the popularity of ME2 characters. Surprise at the extent of attachment? That's a tad different from your earlier claim.

- Another pointed out here, stated "don't get too attached to plot"

Do you remember how the context of that quote was in a post talking about how you shouldn't become too attached to a plot because it may not develop in a way you expect?

Far be it for you to take my memory of Jessica Merizan's discussion point at my word, but I happen to recall a pretty non-controversial statement of the hazards of over-investing in a fanon-expectation of what's to come.

This is bad, this does not demonstrate understanding of writers craft.

Or, alternatively, people are bad at either understanding writers when they talk about their craft, or have selective memories when they do.

[Clayless]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Strangely I think a lot of them have been deleted by whoever mods that site, the only other comment I can find is someone commenting on all the bad reviews just about the gay romances, so that confirms they at least existed at some point.

Ah I also managed to find a Forbes article on the same reviews I was talking about:

www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/06/mass-effect-3s-gay-romance-option-leads-to-user-backlash-on-metacritic/

Though it appears that most of those comments have been deleted, but at least it means I wasn't going crazy and imagining them all.

Anyway the main point was about sources. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most of those reviews were by people who saw that thing I linked earlier, then went and bombed review sites because of it. It's about the dangers in blindly believing what people say without asking for sources, like in this situation with Lucas.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 16 décembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[JamieCOTC]

iakus wrote...



[/i]The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

The irony is , at least for me, that both the kid and the reason fro the Reapers felt like forced ideas that really didn't work, but the writers couldn't let them go.

[Dean_the_Young]

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Profanity Beaver wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Autodialogue and the Lack of control over events certainly is a big blight on this game. 

Yes! Back to business! The game is so awesome so juch of the time, but these moments just hurt me as a player. I'm really devoted to Shepard and the universe. Those two things take that devotion I've been pouring up to Biioware and pisses on it.

There's also things that could have been in the game but wasn't because of time and possibly resources

I really do understand and sympethize with bioware over lack of time and money, I just don't understand why this was lumped under acceptable losses. Is it cause they know we'll buy it all anyways because we're so attached? That's just plain cruel...

Or it could be because it's fiction. At the end of the day none of it is real, life goes on, and they were going to move on past Shepard's trilogy anyway. Why over-compensate?

Just what, for example, would constitute 'unacceptable losses' that hasn't been already done? The EC salved most of the uproar. IT-advocates have self-marginalized, and were never a particularly credible narrative alternative. Nine months later, new releases and new prospects are dominating gamer attention, and a good portion of the anti-ending lingering sentiment is from the same few dozen of people posting regular and consistent variations of the same views and clais.

Alright Mr. Thesaurus open in the next tab, you're mindless retaliation towards whatever the popular opinon happens to be is tedious and tiresome, and it reveals the constant need for attention festering inside you.

You're laughably childish usage of the english language and you're simple minded attempts at portraying yourself intellectually are sad and pathetic.

You sir, come off like a simple minded yokel vainly attempting to pass as a collegiate professor. 

Now please go away before this thread is completely derailed and freakin locked down!

...what are you going on about?

Dude, you made a point of wondering about why it had been labeled acceptable losses. I made a reply asking how it could be anything but, with a list of factors to support that ME3's problems stopped being catastrophic or unacceptable.

Where on earth did you get 'mindless retaliation' from? What popular opinion was that even retaliating against?

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

[/i]The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

Thank you very much for this link.

I always thought that she speak about it from writters perspective and that some fans took it wrong and this inaccurate intepretation just started living its own life on BSN. It is good to see my guess was right. 

[Iakus]

Linkenski wrote...

Shepards "fleshed-out character" is what made me dislike Mass Effect 3 even before the ending. Sure it IS a good game, and i even like some bits of the endings. To me autodialogue just stopped me from enjoying the rest of the game. I was constantly thinking, in almost every mission, stuff like "What, no! I would never have said that" and "you're being a renegade againnnn....."

I think saying that Bioware doesn't have a clue when it comes to reading their fanbase, i'd say you are WRONG. The thing about Shepard is a slip-up, and i don't think the whole team necessarily agreed on it, but seriously we got just about all the romances we wanted, we got Thane's death scene, which was very requested and they even did something to make the endings better.

I know most people are still overall dissatisfied with even the Extended Cut, and it's totally understandable because the endings are fundamentally flawed no matter what argument you throw at us, but it was a dilemma for Bioware if they should change the endings completely to our wants, and completely diminish themselves as game developers and artists. Video games are on the brink of being considered art right now, and even if that entire topic is controversial, it would just be a punch to the face of that claim, if bioware just completely changed the endings.

They do listen to their fanbase, even more than they should in my opinion.

Problem is, ME3 feels more like an action game than an rpg.  I have little control, save at a few very specific points.  Shepard is no longer my Shepard.  I'm being railroaded from one cinematic cutscene to the next.  I might as well be playing Ezio or Alan Wake, with no control over my own character's destiny.

That's not what I purchase Bioware games to experience.  Why does Bioware find this suprising?

[Dean_the_Young]

JamieCOTC wrote...
People do tend to make assumptions on the internet. Who would have thought? 

Well, you know what they say about assumptions...

I agree w/ you that the degree of fan attachment caught BW off guard and there could be any number of reasons this happened, writer fatigue, new writers who didn't know the material, rushing it out, etc, etc, etc. And the EC addressed this issue very well, Shep says goodbye to his/her LI, Joker doesn't run off for no apparent reason, and there is closure for the other characters. Hindsight being 20/20 I would bet money that there are some at BW who kick themselves for not putting something like the EC in the original game.

I agree, and I'm willing to bet that in its internal review documents of games past under the chapter of 'what not to do' the whole ME3 ending is going to be a separate chapter. The real question, though, is what exactly Bioware takes away from it... because as much as people say 'everything' about the ending was bad, people with a bit less hyperbole can probably agree that there were aspects that weren't, and apsects that could have been salvaged with presentation, and some that could have worked out if the overall ending uproar hadn't caused the whole negative connotation spillage in which anything associated with the ending suddenly seemed worse.


One example in particular I like to think of is the Leviathan DLC. Given how the DLC release schedule was pretty obviously a pre-planned thing, it seems to me that part of the Catalyst's minimalism of the vanilla ending was deliberate. Just as Vigil said in ME1, beating the Reapers doesn't require understanding them: understanding them (and the Catalyst, and their motives) were certainly going to be parts of the pre-planned DLC which would have followed 30/60/90 days after release. More elaboration, more development, more context.

Then the ending uproard happened, and one of the complaints among many was the lack of explanation of the Catalyst and the poorly explained motives. Even though Leviathan would have developed the Reapers more, because the EC had to be made (thus pushing back the Leviathan DLC) they decided to expand more upon the Catalyst in the EC as well. Most were satisfied on that issue, and the Leviathan came out later.

Now, what should the take-away be then? That expounding on the antagonist isn't suited for DLC? Leviathan was generally well-received. That the end-boss must expound upon their motives at the final confrontation/decision? Loghain didn't, and he was pretty interesting.

All that said, it is a wonder how two teams from the same comapny can be so different. The DA team gets it. They know fans grow incredibly attatched to the characters and though the writers are going to do what they are going to do, they get it. I don't believe the ME team gets it to the same degree. 

The question remains, though, what 'it' is. I've certainly seen some posters who feel the other way, who considered the Zevran import-glitch in DA2 (where Zevran was always imported as 'unromanced', and thus could be slept with even if the Warden romanced them), and of course DAO had the whole Alistair-self-sacrifice thing. I've heard second-hand from General User that one of his friends more or less locker herself in her room for a week and refused to replay the game because of it.

[Dean_the_Young]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I agree but just to play devil's advocate:

The audience that Bioware should cater to during their post-release DLC schedule should be the hardcore fans since they are the ones who still hold interest in the series despite all the other distractions of the year.

I don't agree that EVERY hardcore fan wants to purchase new ending content (I don't), but Omega (for example) has received mixed reviews from both the critics and the fans because it seems to be targetted for a broader audience that isn't even interested ME3 anymore.

What makes someone a 'hardcore fan', without falling into the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy? And are 'hardcore fans' even a commercially viable consumer group in the first place?

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I agree but just to play devil's advocate:

The audience that Bioware should cater to during their post-release DLC schedule should be the hardcore fans since they are the ones who still hold interest in the series despite all the other distractions of the year.

I don't agree that EVERY hardcore fan wants to purchase new ending content (I don't), but Omega (for example) has received mixed reviews from both the critics and the fans because it seems to be targetted for a broader audience that isn't even interested ME3 anymore.

What makes someone a 'hardcore fan', without falling into the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy? And are 'hardcore fans' even a commercially viable consumer group in the first place?

Whether it makes someone a "hardcore fan" o not, those who buy dlc are teh ones willing to pay more for additional content to the game.  That at least puts them on a differnt level that the "casual (for lack of a better term) player.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...



[/i]The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

Oh, wow, amazing! Priceless!

Guess who was the very second poster in the thread in which Jessica Merizan gave a very explicit elaboration on her own quote?

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...



[/i]The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

Oh, wow, amazing! Priceless!

Guess who was the very second poster in the thread in which Jessica Merizan gave a very explicit elaboration on her own quote?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you posted there too.

Several times.

And her explanation came months after the original post.

Edit:  Heck, I posted in that thread too!

Modifié par iakus, 16 décembre 2012 - 08:21 .

[SpamBot2000]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...



[/i]The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

Oh, wow, amazing! Priceless!

Guess who was the very second poster in the thread in which Jessica Merizan gave a very explicit elaboration on her own quote?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you posted there too.

Several times.

And her explanation came months after the original post.

Edit:  Heck, I posted in that thread too!

Hey, I'm on it too. Defending BioWare employees, as is my wont.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...



Kinda looks like a review if you ask me, and that one wasn't as bad as most other "LOL GAY DATING SIM" reviews.

Strangely I think a lot of them have been deleted by whoever mods that site, the only other comment I can find is someone commenting on all the bad reviews just about the gay romances, so that confirms they at least existed at some point.

You're talking about people voting down on places like metacritc? You realize those scores get averaged right? a few people doing anit-gay rants isn't going ot change the score much unless the amount of internet trolls somehow outnumbers the fanbase.

[Xellith]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...



[/i]The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

Oh, wow, amazing! Priceless!

Guess who was the very second poster in the thread in which Jessica Merizan gave a very explicit elaboration on her own quote?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you posted there too.

Several times.

And her explanation came months after the original post.

Edit:  Heck, I posted in that thread too!

Hey, I'm on it too. Defending BioWare employees, as is my wont.

Eh?

[JasonShepard]

I was attached to my Shepard, but that only made the ending more powerful for me.

In everything from the night before Cronos station, through battling in London, to getting blown up by Harby and struggling through the Citadel, you can see Shepard steadily getting more tired, more worn down. You can see the effect that the war was having on him, until he is crawling across the floor, exhausted, wounded, but unable to give up (just before the Catalyst scene). To me, that made his death... not abrupt at all. It felt suiting, it felt right, that Shepard would give everything he had to end the Reaper threat and succeed. It was a victory, even if it cost him his life, his humanity (meaning that in a literal, no-longer-human-as-of-Control-ending, sense) and his remaining time with the people he loved. It was bittersweet - and I loved it.

[o Ventus]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Someone made a thread detailing all the mistreatment of fans that Bioware did.

It quickly died when they found almost none.

What in the entire f**k are you talking about?

Oh, I remember who I'm replying to. Tangential incoherence is your fortè, no?

[Iakus]

JasonShepard wrote...

I was attached to my Shepard, but that only made the ending more powerful for me.

In everything from the night before Cronos station, through battling in London, to getting blown up by Harby and struggling through the Citadel, you can see Shepard steadily getting more tired, more worn down. You can see the effect that the war was having on him, until he is crawling across the floor, exhausted, wounded, but unable to give up (just before the Catalyst scene). To me, that made his death... not abrupt at all. It felt suiting, it felt right, that Shepard would give everything he had to end the Reaper threat and succeed. It was a victory, even if it cost him his life, his humanity (meaning that in a literal, no-longer-human-as-of-Control-ending, sense) and his remaining time with the people he loved. It was bittersweet - and I loved it.

It felt railroaded.

It felt like it wasn't my Shepard

It felt like Bioware was telling me the story rather than letting me be a part of it.

If it worked for you, if the train was heading towards the destination you wanted anyway, that 's great.  But that's not what a large number of other people want.  And if Bioware was truly serious about drawing a larger audience, they have to take that into account.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...



[/i]The "don't get too attatched to plot" line was from Jessica Merizan.  SHe explains what she meant here.  Take it however you like:

http://social.biowar...739/17#14827714

Oh, wow, amazing! Priceless!

Guess who was the very second poster in the thread in which Jessica Merizan gave a very explicit elaboration on her own quote?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you posted there too.

Several times.

And her explanation came months after the original post.

Edit:  Heck, I posted in that thread too!

Indeed... but that isn't what is amusing. It's the claims of what Jessica Marizan was saying: I knew it wasn't just a familiar LucasShark-ism to misrepresent the claim about Bioware telling people to not get too attached to a plot... but I'd no idea that he'd actually been in the thread in which it was explained.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 décembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[Iakus]

o Ventus wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Someone made a thread detailing all the mistreatment of fans that Bioware did.

It quickly died when they found almost none.

What in the entire f**k are you talking about?

Oh, I remember who I'm replying to. Tangential incoherence is your fortè, no?

I think that's called "attempted thread derailment"

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[/quote]Indeed... but that isn't what is amusing. It's the claims of what Jessica Marizan was saying: I knew it wasn't just a familiar LucasShark-ism to repeat the claim about Bioware telling people to not get too attached to a plot... but I'd no idea that he'd actually been in the thread in which it was explained.
[/quote]

But look at the times.

The thread was made four months ago.  Ms Merizan's explanation was one month ago.  And she had unlocked it after it had been closed for three months to post that.

I can totally understand how that got missed.

[Clayless]

Greylycantrope wrote...

You're talking about people voting down on places like metacritc? You realize those scores get averaged right? a few people doing anit-gay rants isn't going ot change the score much unless the amount of internet trolls somehow outnumbers the fanbase.

You make it sound as though those question counter my original post on this matter:

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Also it's rather disturbing that everyone is automatically believing Lucas yet no one has asked him to cite his source. It's just as bad as all those people that went crazy and started giving bad reviews to ME3 before the game came out because of this.

They don't.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 16 décembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The way ME3 was written you could have played it without playing either of the other two games. You probably would have felt better at the end. It was a better place to start. You wouldn't be attached to the plot or the characters. You would have cared about shooting and game mechanics and multiplayer. The ending would have been "meh" so what, it sucks. You might not have even gotten that far. You might have just gotten as far as say Thessia then just played multiplayer or gone on to another game.

The rest of us who played all the way through felt the pain. There was no way in hell Shepard could have survived that explosion. In all three endings you died, all the mass relays were destroyed, the Normandy was stranded on some planet god knows where, the ships in the Sword Fleet either blew up because their drive cores and computers were targeted or everyone starved. The galaxy was a wasteland. And then if you worked really hard and chose destroy they teased you with this breath scene which given the size of the explosion on the Citadel makes absolutely no sense at all, unless Shepard never made it to the Citadel in the first place, and this gives rise to indoctrination theory.

Many of us played multiple plays of ME1 and ME2. Some explored every possibility, This could have resulted in 1600 hrs total for some players for two games. I had 1200. How could we not be attached to "our Shepards". They each had different names. They each had different faces.

Then they say "we didn't know you wanted closure."

So they give us "clarification" like we're a bunch of idiots. Still, no closure. Still same (expletives deleted) of an ending. 5 years we waited. This game could have been the best of the decade. It could have been a legitimate Game of the Year (forget that paid shill GameInformer), better than Skyrim. But they broke my heart. I am holding the line and waiting to see if they come up with something with Puzzle Theory. Until then I use MEHEM. Thank you MrFob. It took a community member to save this game.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 16 décembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Femlob]

Why does Bioware seem suprised we would be attached to our Shepard?

What did you expect them to say? "We know you care, guys, but that's kind of inconvenient for us"?

[JasonShepard]

iakus wrote...

SNIP

It felt railroaded.

It felt like it wasn't my Shepard

It felt like Bioware was telling me the story rather than letting me be a part of it.

If it worked for you, if the train was heading towards the destination you wanted anyway, that 's great.  But that's not what a large number of other people want.  And if Bioware was truly serious about drawing a larger audience, they have to take that into account.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that Bioware desperately needs positive feedback so that they can find out what does work, and use it next time. So I'm just stating what works for me. At this point I think they know what didn't work.

And Bioware was always just telling you the story. The dialogue wheel is actually a trick - you determine the tone, but they decide what you say. In that sense, I prefer DA:O's approach. The problem is that the facade had faded by the time ME3's ending rolled around - there wasn't an easy way to ask "would your Shepard be feeling exhausted by now?" so they decided "Most real people would be worn down by now, so yes". You can disagree with that decision - heck, you're welcome to - but I happen to agree and prefer it.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 16 décembre 2012 - 08:38 .