292 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Miranda happy and thriving? Check, Technological advancement and demystification of Reapers? Check. Resurgence of non-Council species? Double check. The only thing canon!Shep didn't get was a life with Miranda. Maybe I just lucked into a Shep that went beautifully with the ending. But it was actually really powerful for me because I agonized over whether to give him Miranda or his professional goals. I tabbed out for a good ten minutes.

[fiendishchicken]

Nightwriter wrote...

jtav wrote...

A personal happy ending was never promised. Wee beat the Reapers. Trillions of lives that would have been extinguished aren't going to be. Jack's going to be with her students. Miranda has Ori and appears to be doing something awesome in both slides. The story doesn't become depressing because the hero dies, not when death accomplishes so much.

The ending isn't bad because it involves sacrifice. It's bad because it is poorly written. You can tell by the way the necessity of your death is not shown, but told. "The mystery machine just so happens to be powered by souls" basically.

You can also tell by the way the situation which makes your death necessary is created and concluded within ten minutes. The Warden died to stop a Blight that had been the drive of the plot since minute one. William Wallace died for a cause he'd been fighting for since the opening credits. ME3 spends 2.9 games with a plot that is all about fighting the Reapers, then at the last second invents a new situation, namely "solve a cosmic existential problem", and then asks you to die for it.

I really don't understand how I'm expected to derive a sense of accomplishment from something so abrupt and arbitrary, especially when they make the foolish decision to make my enemy the mouthpiece of this last minute story shift. And especially when I don't even agree with the problem. Sacrifice needs to be well built up to. The necessity of my death needs to be observable, appreciable.

This.

And the fact that this is supposed to be an RPG. My Shepard isn't sacrificing his life to stop the Reapers. He's going to kill them, and return home to Miranda victorious. I made my trilogy run so that I could get this.

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

Miranda happy and thriving? Check, Technological advancement and demystification of Reapers? Check. Resurgence of non-Council species? Double check. The only thing canon!Shep didn't get was a life with Miranda. Maybe I just lucked into a Shep that went beautifully with the ending. But it was actually really powerful for me because I agonized over whether to give him Miranda or his professional goals. I tabbed out for a good ten minutes.

Understand that not everyone has the same professional goals as your Shepard. Miranda is my Shepards goal, and he's going to make sure that he gets back to her again. My Shepard stopped fighting for the galaxy a long time ago. He still has his idealism and passion for it, but he's too jaded to really, truly believe it. But he can believe in Miranda and it's her inspiration that makes him strive to come home to her at all costs. That's why him surviving is perfect for me.

[Nightwriter]

But the writing quality of an ending ending isn't measured by how much of a dilemma it presents to fanfic writers in fairly unique and isolated situations. I think you found yourself in an uncommon position that wouldn't have been possible had you not done half the work, or more. I don't think the majority of people were so lucky as to stumble across a situation that meshes extremely well with a pre-written character landscape.

The slides are pretty. I know that. It's hard for me to see Synthesis as the Devil because it too is pretty. But the slides don't change the bad writing for me. They just try to tack on a happy face over it.

[Iakus]

fiendishchicken wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda happy and thriving? Check, Technological advancement and demystification of Reapers? Check. Resurgence of non-Council species? Double check. The only thing canon!Shep didn't get was a life with Miranda. Maybe I just lucked into a Shep that went beautifully with the ending. But it was actually really powerful for me because I agonized over whether to give him Miranda or his professional goals. I tabbed out for a good ten minutes.

Understand that not everyone has the same professional goals as your Shepard. Miranda is my Shepards goal, and he's going to make sure that he gets back to her again. My Shepard stopped fighting for the galaxy a long time ago. He still has his idealism and passion for it, but he's too jaded to really, truly believe it. But he can believe in Miranda and it's her inspiration that makes him strive to come home to her at all costs. That's why him surviving is perfect for me.

Indeed.

Bioware was not supposed to make an ending just for you.  Or just for me.  Or just for jtav, or anyone else.  We were told there'd be a multitude of endings.  Endings based on our own Shepards, based on how we played.  But in the end, no matter how we played, they all had a sameness in Shepard's death or apparant death.  there is no other way it can turn out (unless you do a fan mod)

I find this, and the fact that Bioware apparantly has no problem with this at all, troubling.

[Ieldra]

I have no idea how people can say that the endings "have a sameness to them" after the EC. The outcomes couldn't be more different, and Shepard lives in high-EMS Destroy. Can't you take in the spirit it was meant: SHEPARD IS ALIVE!!!! It's so utterly obvious that I fail to have any sympathy for this particular complaint.

And you can bet that Bioware thinks exactly the same, and that's why they don't "address the problem". There is no problem.

Also one more thing: people complain about the happiness of the EC epilogue. I can see why they are happy: too many people here are apparently unable to believe in anything positive unless it's spelled out to them to the last detail. That's why we got the happier stuff. And see what happens: either people say it's not real or it should be less happy. It's as people are determined to pull everything through the dirt and leave it there, as if they *want* to be depressed in order to be able to complain about it. I hate this attitude.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 décembre 2012 - 09:43 .

[ioannisdenton]

They did not. that was a pathetic attempt of damage control.
they knew, they are years in the buisenes that after all they claim their games rely on story thus feelings.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And what if you find ME3 to be much in the same vein as the previous ones, or even general Bioware games: an overall solid game with quality ranging from the absurd to the excellent? ME3 never struck me as terribly outside of Bioware norms: if anything, it was more faithful (ie, more embracing about the bittersweet, with writing quality varying from excellent to faithpalm) than ME2 (which embraced positive validation to the point of lacking tragedy or loss). If there was an outlier to the series, it was ME2.

To someone like myself, ME2 was the 'sellout', and ME3 would have been the return to the standards I hold more important.

I can't recall a single Bioware game that forced the player character to commit suicide to complete the game.  If the character lived there was always definitive proof, not "implications" strong or otherwise.

Since Shepard can survive in the Destroy option, with all the subtlety of a pretty blatant scene, you aren't forced to commit suicide to complete the game. Whether you find it too vague rather misses the obvious: there's an reason for the scene to exist.

[d-boy15]

man, bioware is not perfectly genius and they are not the only best story teller in video game industry.

sometimes people can be stubborn by their pride. at least they realize it and try something with EC.

Modifié par d-boy15, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[jtav]

It's not a fanfic thing. It's "Here is Desirable Thing A (Technological Integration, Freed Reapers) with Negative Consequence B (Forced Change, Dead Shepard) vs Desirable Thing X (Live Shepard) with Negative Consequence Y (Dead Synthetics and Reapers). Now choose." That's what I wanted for three games: a genuinely hard choice. A personal sacrifice. It really worked for me. The exposition and presentation are awful but the choice is good.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since Shepard can survive in the Destroy option, with all the subtlety of a pretty blatant scene, you aren't forced to commit suicide to complete the game. Whether you find it too vague rather misses the obvious: there's an reason for the scene to exist.

Well of course there's a reason, so Bioware can come along later and tell us we're not sure if Shephard survives with this ending. Or did you miss that? Not like we needed Bioware to tell us that, anyway. 

The vagueness *is* the point that's pissing off a lot of people, whether you like it or not. The scene can be read as Shep's last breath and the LI flying back to find that out and pick up his body. Or it can be read as a hopeful breath and the LI not giving up hope, rushing back, and finding Shep bled out two hours ago. Or it can be read as a hopeful breath and the LI not giving up hope and finding Shep alive.

It's fracking irritating, if I wanted to make up my own damn story about Shep I wouldn't have paid Bioware $60 to tell it. 

[Almostfaceman]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have no idea how people can say that the endings "have a sameness to them" after the EC. The outcomes couldn't be more different, and Shepard lives in high-EMS Destroy. Can't you take in the spirit it was meant: SHEPARD IS ALIVE!!!! It's so utterly obvious that I fail to have any sympathy for this particular complaint.

And you can bet that Bioware thinks exactly the same, and that's why they don't "address the problem". There is no problem.

Nope, the scene is left intentionally ambigious for people to interpret how they want to interpret it, and Bioware has said so. There's room for Shep dying in that ending, if one so chooses. 

The people who want Shep to live, want an ending where Shep dying cannot be read into the ending. I'm not sure why that's so hard for Bioware to deliver. 

[Fixers0]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since Shepard can survive in the Destroy option, with all the subtlety of a pretty blatant scene, you aren't forced to commit suicide to complete the game. Whether you find it too vague rather misses the obvious: there's an reason for the scene to exist.

We have no reason to assume that the person lying in the rubble is Shepard.

[LinksOcarina]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have no idea how people can say that the endings "have a sameness to them" after the EC. The outcomes couldn't be more different, and Shepard lives in high-EMS Destroy. Can't you take in the spirit it was meant: SHEPARD IS ALIVE!!!! It's so utterly obvious that I fail to have any sympathy for this particular complaint.

And you can bet that Bioware thinks exactly the same, and that's why they don't "address the problem". There is no problem.

Nope, the scene is left intentionally ambigious for people to interpret how they want to interpret it, and Bioware has said so. There's room for Shep dying in that ending, if one so chooses. 

The people who want Shep to live, want an ending where Shep dying cannot be read into the ending. I'm not sure why that's so hard for Bioware to deliver. 

Maybe because they don't want to. Whats hard to understand about that?

[Almostfaceman]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maybe because they don't want to. Whats hard to understand about that?

Why would they not want to? Who would it hurt? People would get their Shep dying ending or a Shep living ending. Choice. That's what's hard to understand. Savvy?

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:36 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And what if you find ME3 to be much in the same vein as the previous ones, or even general Bioware games: an overall solid game with quality ranging from the absurd to the excellent? ME3 never struck me as terribly outside of Bioware norms: if anything, it was more faithful (ie, more embracing about the bittersweet, with writing quality varying from excellent to faithpalm) than ME2 (which embraced positive validation to the point of lacking tragedy or loss). If there was an outlier to the series, it was ME2.

To someone like myself, ME2 was the 'sellout', and ME3 would have been the return to the standards I hold more important.

I can't recall a single Bioware game that forced the player character to commit suicide to complete the game.  If the character lived there was always definitive proof, not "implications" strong or otherwise.

Since Shepard can survive in the Destroy option, with all the subtlety of a pretty blatant scene, you aren't forced to commit suicide to complete the game. Whether you find it too vague rather misses the obvious: there's an reason for the scene to exist.

Yep, it's so blatant that Shepard's survival is deliberately ambiguous, even to the developers.

This is why I ike MEHEM so much.  It doesn't play coy with Shepard's survival.  SHepard lives.  battered, but still alive.  No ifs, ands, or buts about it

[LinksOcarina]

Almostfaceman wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maybe because they don't want to. Whats hard to understand about that?

Why would they not want to? Who would it hurt? People would get their Shep dying ending or a Shep living ending. Choice. That's what's hard to understand. Savvy?

No, because in my mind its their story and their ending. They showed that with the extended cut where they did what they promised, they differentiated the endings a lot more and actually explained  plot holes and gave closure for characters. 

So you should be grateful you had one ending where Shepard may live out of the numerous combinations present. No one ever is when they get one lick of the ice cream cone though...

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[jtav]

They only started saying "it's up to you" after months of complaining, essentially saying "if you want to be miserable, knock yourselves out." When that scene pops up in a movie or TV show, everyone knows it means the hero lives. Everyone knew it pre-EC or they wouldn't have been complaining about the EMS requirement. I'm sick of willful misery.

[o Ventus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maybe because they don't want to. Whats hard to understand about that?

Did you actually just say this? What kind of sh*t deal is that? In 3 out of 4 endings, Shepard is dead and gone. The other ending? "Speculations." 

You're  blind if you can't see the problem with that, especially after the EC provided its "clarity and closure".

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have no idea how people can say that the endings "have a sameness to them" after the EC. The outcomes couldn't be more different, and Shepard lives in high-EMS Destroy. Can't you take in the spirit it was meant: SHEPARD IS ALIVE!!!! It's so utterly obvious that I fail to have any sympathy for this particular complaint.

I believe teh "sameness" is the same bleak chocies followed by the nearly universal death of Shepard.  In all choices, you have to commit a horrible atrocity on the galaxy to stop the cycle

Note:  I am aware that you like Synthesis and have your own theroeis on why it's great.  I wish I could share them, but I can't  I and many others find teh implications...unpleasant.

So while the outcomes may be different, they are all simply different atrocities, with a Shepard dead or only vaguely implied to be alive.  Not a good way to go out.

And you can bet that Bioware thinks exactly the same, and that's why they don't "address the problem". There is no problem.

There is no problem for you.  There is a big problem for me and many many others.  One Bioware refuses to even acknoledge, let alone address.

Also one more thing: people complain about the happiness of the EC epilogue. I can see why they are happy: too many people here are apparently unable to believe in anything positive unless it's spelled out to them to the last detail. That's why we got the happier stuff. And see what happens: either people say it's not real or it should be less happy. It's as people are determined to pull everything through the dirt and leave it there, as if they *want* to be depressed in order to be able to complain about it. I hate this attitude.  

The problem is the EC adds happiness without removing unpleasantness.  Sure it shows all sorts of happy people after the endings (well, most of them) but it doesn't remove the horrific atrocities Shepard has to perform.  ust becuse people praise Shepard's name afterwards, doesn't make what was done any less an atrocity.

[Humakt83]

My last Shepard looks like a caveman. I'm not attached to him.

Even my female Shepards tend to look like crossbreeds.

Modifié par Humakt83, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

They only started saying "it's up to you" after months of complaining, essentially saying "if you want to be miserable, knock yourselves out." When that scene pops up in a movie or TV show, everyone knows it means the hero lives. Everyone knew it pre-EC or they wouldn't have been complaining about the EMS requirement. I'm sick of willful misery.

Extended Cut was released June 26.  I have found talk of "it's up to you" starting in mid-July.  That's weeks at best.  Not months

[jtav]

Considering the sheer number of people who I've seen express an attitude of "screw the galaxy, I'm going to live" I can't say I blame them, not if they want the choice to be about how the galaxy will go, not Shepard's fate.

[Iakus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

No, because in my mind its their story and their ending. They showed that with the extended cut where they did what they promised, they differentiated the endings a lot more and actually explained  plot holes and gave closure for characters. 

That defeats the very purpose of chocie-based narratives.  Heck, role-playing in general.

If I had that mindset, I might as well be playing Assassin's Creed than Mass Effect.

So you should be grateful you had one ending where Shepard may live out of the numerous combinations present. No one ever is when they get one lick of the ice cream cone though...

"Thank you, sir!  May I have another?"

[LinksOcarina]

o Ventus wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maybe because they don't want to. Whats hard to understand about that?

Did you actually just say this? What kind of sh*t deal is that? In 3 out of 4 endings, Shepard is dead and gone. The other ending? "Speculations." 

You're  blind if you can't see the problem with that, especially after the EC provided its "clarity and closure".

So what I said it true then? I personally see no problem and you guys need to get over yourselves a bit when in any other situation the hero would survive with such a representation visually. 

So it's not a **** deal at all, its what they planned. As I said above you should be grateful that you got an ending where Shepard may have survived, since its pretty clear that he wasn't supposed to at all. Either that or play the modded ending. At this point any reasoning or compalints about Shepard dying is pointless, since it is set in stone and that won't change.