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[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Why ignore the endings? Because you don't like them?

Good reason

Because everyone has a canon.

My point exactly.....


And your solution to this is to make a Canon ending....?

That makes a lot of sense.

No, just the opposite.

Don't acknowledge any canon ending.  There was a Reaper War.  Commander Shepard saved the galaxy.  That's the beginning, middle, and end of it.  Anything else is irrelevant.

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

No, just the opposite.

Don't acknowledge any canon ending.  There was a Reaper War.  Commander Shepard saved the galaxy.  That's the beginning, middle, and end of it.  Anything else is irrelevant.

That's impossible. They can't escape from some of the variables. #1 thing - every organism after Synthesis is glowing green.

[Iakus]

IsaacShep wrote...

iakus wrote...

No, just the opposite.

Don't acknowledge any canon ending.  There was a Reaper War.  Commander Shepard saved the galaxy.  That's the beginning, middle, and end of it.  Anything else is irrelevant.

That's impossible. They can't escape from some of the variables. #1 thing - every organism after Synthesis is glowing green.

You escape the variables by ignoring them.

If there is no canon then make is so there is no canon

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

You escape the variables by ignoring them.

If there is no canon then make is so there is no canon

You can't ignore them. If you remove Krogan, Rachni, Geth & Quarians, then it plays right into Destroy + killed Rachni + not cured Genophage.

[MegaSovereign]

Maybe the glowing green condition of synthesis is only temporary and is mitigated in future generations.

After a few generations, "synthesis" as we know it will have become canon. By "synthesis" I mean integration with technology.

[Iakus]

IsaacShep wrote...

iakus wrote...

You escape the variables by ignoring them.

If there is no canon then make is so there is no canon

You can't ignore them. If you remove Krogan, Rachni, Geth & Quarians, then it plays right into Destroy + killed Rachni + not cured Genophage.

So keep them.  Keep any race that they think would add to the story.  Heck make some cybernetically upgraded characters have green eyes.  No explanations, it just is

But if Mass Effect continues to shackle itself to past games, it's going to fall apart.  Creativity will be stifled due to the hundreds of permutations that have to be accounted for.  

I mean seriously, it's not like continuity was a top priority anyway.

Modifié par iakus, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:46 .

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

So keep them.  Keep any race that they think would add to the story.  Heck make some cybernetically upgraded characters have green eyes.  No explanations, it just is

But people would never look at it as "no explanations". Even without explanations, people would be disconnected because of different state of the galaxy they had in their own endings than what they see in ME4. On the other side, there would be some who made exactly the set of choices that would align with "Krogan & Geth alive and green eyes" state they would see in ME4. It would be canon, one way or another.

iakus wrote...

But if Mass Effect continues to shackle itself to past games, it's going to fall apart.  Creativity will be stifled due to the hundreds of permutations that have to be accounted for.  

I mean seriously, it's not like continuity was a top priority anyway.

If they jump a long time into future and only focus on the long-lasting choices - 3 endings, Geth, Krogan, Rachni, Quarian then it could be doable. Especially if they showcase the variables/consequences for the 4 potentially dead races in ME4 and then "move" these races back to the background in ME5 & ME6, leaving ME5 & ME6 room to focus on choices made in ME4. Then I think it's 'doable', and could be done well really. Essentially, they could avoid the mistake they did with ME2. They didn't focus on the choices from ME1, instead they accumulated all the resolutions from choices in ME1 and ME2 into ME3. That backfired. A lot of problems could've been avoided if they showed and finished consequences of Council/Rachni/VS choices in ME2. There would be much less 'baggage' in ME3

Modifié par IsaacShep, 17 décembre 2012 - 03:55 .

[Epic777]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Maybe the glowing green condition of synthesis is only temporary and is mitigated in future generations.

After a few generations, "synthesis" as we know it will have become canon. By "synthesis" I mean integration with technology.

Thats the problem Bioware has.

To avoid a canon ending, they will have  marginalize all the endings to honor them. ME3 ends in a variety of variables. Example:The rachni maybe dead, alive or living on the Krogan homeworld.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I guess that's a virtual confirmation that the next game will be a sequel rather than a prequel now, no?

[Iakus]

IsaacShep wrote...
]But people would never look at it as "no explanations". Even without explanations, people would be disconnected because of different state of the galaxy they had in their own endings than what they see in ME4. On the other side, there would be some who made exactly the set of choices that would align with "Krogan & Geth alive and green eyes" state they would see in ME4. It would be canon, one way or another.

If  some people have green eyes, there are geth, but no Reapers, which ending is canon?

I mean Baldur's Gate 2 didn't hold to a particular canon.  Characters could appear in the second game that could be dead in the first, and they joked about it.  And that game is considered superior to the original!

If they jump a long time into future and only focus on the long-lasting choices - 3 endings, Geth, Krogan, Rachni, Quarian then it could be doable. Especially if they showcase the variables/consequences for the 4 potentially dead races in ME4 and then "move" these races back to the background in ME5 & ME6, leaving ME5 & ME6 room to focus on choices made in ME4. Then I think it's 'doable', and could be done well really.

And I think that means everyone gets a watered down experience.  That means there can never be another geth, quarian, krogan, or rachni character.  And likely no hanar or drell.  Earth can never be visited, nor Thessia, Palaven, or any world that had a relay in it's system as of ME3.  

Heck, toss Refuse into the mix and the whole thing becomes pretty much unworkable.

[Iakus]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I guess that's a virtual confirmation that the next game will be a sequel rather than a prequel now, no?

At the very least it hasn't been decided yet.

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...
If  some people have green eyes, there are geth, but no Reapers, which ending is canon?

So mix it up to the point that it's basically 5th ending? ;P I guess nobody could complain then that his ending wasn't the one that was picked for canon, though everyone would also be disappointed at the same time to a degree lol

iakus wrote...
I mean Baldur's Gate 2 didn't hold to a particular canon.  Characters could appear in the second game that could be dead in the first, and they joked about it.  And that game is considered superior to the original!

True, but Baldur's Gate never created expectations of following all choices from previous games as Mass Effect Trilogy did with its format.

iakus wrote...
And I think that means everyone gets a watered down experience.  That means there can never be another geth, quarian, krogan, or rachni character.  And likely no hanar or drell.  Earth can never be visited, nor Thessia, Palaven, or any world that had a relay in it's system as of ME3. 

There can be another Geth, Krogan, Quarian, Rachni character. But they shouldn't be main races for the entire next trilogy, not Geth, Quarian & Krogan at least who were already used heavily in the first trilogy. And I don't get what about Thessia/Palaven. Obviously if they were going to honor 3 endings, they would honor the best version of each ending and regard the bad versions in the same way "Shep dies in SM" ending is in ME2 - that is not at all. Doubt anyone would have problems with that.

iakus wrote...
Heck, toss Refuse into the mix and the whole thing becomes pretty much unworkable.

Refuse means completly different races, all of them. That was always out of the question and there's no point even considering Refuse.

iakus wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I guess that's a virtual confirmation that the next game will be a sequel rather than a prequel now, no?

At the very least it hasn't been decided yet.

Yeah, I wouldn't bet on a sequel yet at all. But what Mac said, along with Casey's tweet, makes me positive that they're at least checking/trying to figure out if they can do a sequel at all. Something that seemed like they would never even consider before ME3 was released.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 17 décembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Heck, toss Refuse into the mix and the whole thing becomes pretty much unworkable.

Refuse is essentially the same thing as the "Everybody dies" ending in ME2.

[Iakus]

IsaacShep wrote...
So mix it up to the point that it's basically 5th ending? ;P I guess nobody could complain then that his ending wasn't the one that was picked for canon, though everyone would also be disappointed at the same time to a degree lol

People are going to be disappointed regardless.  At least if no canon is followed, no one can accuse Bioware of favoritism/laziness.

iakus wrote...
]True, but Baldur's Gate never created expectations of following all choices from previous games as Mass Effect Trilogy did with its format.

Bioware only promised a trilogy.  That's been delivered, with decidedly mixed results.  At this point, Bioware should cut ties and get the creative juices flowing again.

iakus wrote...
There can be another Geth, Krogan, Quarian, Rachni character. But they shouldn't be main races for the entire next trilogy, not Geth, Quarian & Krogan at least who were already used heavily in the first trilogy. And I don't get what about Thessia/Palaven. Obviously if they were going to honor 3 endings, they would honor the best version of each ending and regard the bad versions in the same way "Shep dies in SM" ending is in ME2 - that is not at all. Doubt anyone would have problems with that.

If a species is wiped out, by that very definition, it can't appear in a sequel.  In low EMS Destroy, the relays do rupture, leading to a galactic dark age.  That means every system with a relay becomes a wasteland.  Which includes the homeworlds of most or all of the spacefaring species.

iakus wrote...
Refuse means completly different races, all of them. That was always out of the question and there's no point even considering Refuse.

So you're saying only certain players' canon should be acknowledged in ME4? 

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

If a species is wiped out, by that very definition, it can't appear in a sequel.

Yes, but replacement Asari/Turian/Drell character can step in, or we can travel to graveworlds of these races instead.

iakus wrote...

In low EMS Destroy, the relays do rupture, leading to a galactic dark age.  That means every system with a relay becomes a wasteland.  Which includes the homeworlds of most or all of the spacefaring species.

Like I said, nobody would mind if low-EMS versions were disregarded. It's the same situation as with Shep dying in ME2.

iakus wrote...
So you're saying only certain players' canon should be acknowledged in ME4? 

Yep, I'm gonna be a hypocrite here because as you see, we're arguing if creating ME4 that honors high-EMS version of Destroy, Control & Synthesis is possible at all or whether it would require 3 separate games. Refusal is a new IP. Without super heavy retcons, it is completly impossible to have it honored in the same game along with other endings. Plus, it wasn't even there when ME3 released

[Necrotron]

Oh god, we're really going to make the ending of ME3 live on longer, aren't we?

I vote we just ignore anything before ever existed, or at least make it irrelevant.

[someone else]

BW has painted themselves into an impossible corner, and OP you may as well have your tea leaves read at Madame Fortuna's (2nd floor, just off Picadilly) than find substance in Mac babblings to the game reviewer lapdogs - BW has to include some recognizable features from ME1-3 if only to to let us know we ain't in SWTOR-land - thats about all. They'd have to be suicidal to even think about importing the ending controversy into a new series...

[Iakus]

[quote]IsaacShep wrote...
]Yes, but replacement Asari/Turian/Drell character can step in, or we can travel to graveworlds of these races instead.[/quote]

You realize this was a complaint of ME3, right?  The  Biff the Understudy characters so the story would proceed with minimal variations based on your choices?

[quote]
Like I said, nobody would mind if low-EMS versions were disregarded. It's the same situation as with Shep dying in ME2.[/quote]

You sure about that? 

Yep, I'm gonna be a hypocrite here because as you see, we're arguing if creating ME4 that honors high-EMS version of Destroy, Control & Synthesis is possible at all or whether it would require 3 separate games. Refusal is a new IP. Without super heavy retcons, it is completly impossible to have it honored in the same game along with other endings. Plus, it wasn't even there when ME3 released
[/quote]

It's still as canon as any other ending, so sayeth Bioware.

But at least you're honest in your hypocrisy 

Modifié par iakus, 17 décembre 2012 - 04:55 .

[garrusfan1]

Oh for f***s sake they are gonna use a cannon ending but the import option would be for everything else alright. Seriously people when over 60% of people choose 1 ending it is cannon alright and thus will be used

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

You realize this was a complaint of ME3, right?  The  Biff the Understudy characters so the story would proceed with minimal variations based on your choices?

It's gonna be a complaint when used incorrectly. Travelling to Geth Cementary instead of Dyson Sphere would be a real difference. Some content could be made exclusive, some cutscenes skipped completly and having replacement characters in only part of the situations. Or have completly different character in different places provide you similar information.

iakus wrote...

You sure about that?

Yup. And besides, additional damage in low-EMS destroy & Control can always be explained that the galaxy rebuilt.

[Iakus]

IsaacShep wrote...
It's gonna be a complaint when used incorrectly. Travelling to Geth Cementary instead of Dyson Sphere would be a real difference. Some content could be made exclusive, some cutscenes skipped completly and having replacement characters in only part of the situations. Or have completly different character in different places provide you similar information.

Bioware seems to have a policy against exclusive content now.  I wouldn't count on ever seeing anything like what you're desribing.  At best, you'd get another Legion VI

Yup. And besides, additional damage in low-EMS destroy & Control can always be explained that the galaxy rebuilt.

Yeah, sure, whitewash a ten thousand year dark age.  Who's gonna notice? 

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

Bioware seems to have a policy against exclusive content now.  I wouldn't count on ever seeing anything like what you're desribing.  At best, you'd get another Legion VI

Maybe they should re-consider it. I don't really get it anyway, ME games are like 40 hours worth of content. Is making 3-5 hours exclusive for different playthroughs gonna diminish the lenght & value of the game that much? Not at all, this is not an 8-hour shooter that would heavily suffer from exclusive content.

iakus wrote...
Yeah, sure, whitewash a ten thousand year dark age.  Who's gonna notice? 

And this then thousands year dark age was confirmed to be happening post-low-EMS-Destory where exactly?

[FlamingBoy]

biowares did not have the integrity to make good on promises for me3, why should we believe these half promises for me4

[Iakus]

IsaacShep wrote...
Maybe they should re-consider it. I don't really get it anyway, ME games are like 40 hours worth of content. Is making 3-5 hours exclusive for different playthroughs gonna diminish the lenght & value of the game that much? Not at all, this is not an 8-hour shooter that would heavily suffer from exclusive content.

I don't disagree with that.  Nevertheless, this appears to be part of the  "streamlining" process.  

]And this then thousands year dark age was confirmed to be happening post-low-EMS-Destory where exactly?

Apparantly ithe stargazer scene is supposed to be ten thousand years later.  And the Final Hours app apparantly has stuff that implies using the Crucible triggers a galactic dark age.  Of course, that gets retconned in EC, but low EMS Destroy implies something like that still happens.

edit:  But mostly I'm just saying whitewashing teh disasterous results of low or even mid EMS endings would be rather odd, and probably bring about howls of anguish.  I mean, Jacob didn't have a whole lot of fans, and look how people reacted to his romance in ME3.

Modifié par iakus, 17 décembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[MegaSovereign]

Make the failure endings (vaporization Destroy and Refusal) unable to import. Like how in ME2 you couldn't import a dead Shepard.

The rest of the variables can be handled. It's not easy but it's not impossible either. Especially if they do it hundreds of years after the reconstruction period is over.