214 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

By making the save import not show up if your EMS is below a certain threshold. It's no different than not having the ability to import dead Sheps into ME3.

Not really.

They told us in advance that Dead Shepards won't be importible into ME3 (is that a word?).  They have explicitly said that there is no canon for the endings of ME3.  All are valid

[dorktainian]

ah the old MASS EFFECT 4 debate, heres how to make it a sequel.

as the camera pans out of the citadel after the destroy ending.....the citadel apears in a snow globe on a shelf. the snow globe on the shelf is one of many. all have their own versions of the citadel in them - in different ending states. we pan out and discover that these globes aint globes, but pixels. pixels of an image in front of a man in a dark room wearing a helmet. the helmet has three lights on it. red/blue/green. the camera explores the room. it appears to be an enormous room. spherical in shape. hexagonal panels adorn the walls....highly reflective. we are drawn to the sound within the room. the hum of the room. the camera pans back. a chair is in the center of the room, at the end of a long walkway which is almost suspended in mid air. the walkway has tiny lights all along its length illuminating the walkway.

a small door opens in the distance (i said it was big). someone enters the room and walks towards the chair. the camera follows their path along the walkway as the display in the background (think of a massive screen) flickers. words displayed on the screen at random. random patterns flicker accross.

as the camera pulls back again you recognise the shape and design of the spherical room.

the person in the chair takes off their helmet. he shakes off the effects of something as yet unseen as the person that entered the room approaches them. the person is adorned in a uniform of robe design. the symbol on his chest recognisable to anyone that has played the mass effect games. his face is obscured due to a lack of lighting but the voice is instantly familiar. the person in the chair is revealed. the person in the robe is revealed. then a question.

are you prepared?

camera moves outside. you are in a massive space vessel. it is one of many. behind them is the milky way. in front of them is the future. darkspace and their target.

titles.. MASS EFFECT 4.

[DirtyPhoenix]

In hindsight this whole import business seems like a stifling idea. And it only gets more muddy with each passing game.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

By making the save import not show up if your EMS is below a certain threshold. It's no different than not having the ability to import dead Sheps into ME3.

Not really.

They told us in advance that Dead Shepards won't be importible into ME3 (is that a word?).  They have explicitly said that there is no canon for the endings of ME3.  All are valid

....

That's the weakest argument ever.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

By making the save import not show up if your EMS is below a certain threshold. It's no different than not having the ability to import dead Sheps into ME3.

Not really.

They told us in advance that Dead Shepards won't be importible into ME3 (is that a word?).  They have explicitly said that there is no canon for the endings of ME3.  All are valid

they've always stated that there was no-canon. This isn't something that's exclusive to ME3. They've said that since the first game.

And concerning "Dead Shepard" Endings from ME2 being relatable to ME3's Refuse ending, they're both essentially glorified Game Over cutscenes. You don't "Win".

[Iakus]

Umm they declared all ME3 endings valid, an the "Shepard dies" ending in ME 2 invalid (before it was released I might add)

What's so weak about that? You're not suggesting Bioware lied are you?

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

Umm they declared all ME3 endings valid, an the "Shepard dies" ending in ME 2 invalid (before it was released I might add)

What's so weak about that? You're not suggesting Bioware lied are you?

..Okay...So they should tell people that its not valid before the release of ME4.

Refusal is an extended game over screen anyway. It doesn't even unlock the achievement for finishing the game.

[Iakus]

No I'm saying if low EMS endings were invalid they should have said so before ME 3 was ever released

And Refuse is the one ending I'm not sure creates an import save. But e en if it was that would p* ss people as there are those who genuinely see it as their canon. And not just Puzzle Theorists. Peak people really hate the orher endings that much

[Reth Shepherd]

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Who would want to import a wasteland playthrough? No one seriously has a "canon" wasteland playthrough. You have to try to get a wasteland playthrough.

People can and do.

People have been importing FailSheps from the beginning.  They create all sorts of save conditions to import just to see what will happen.

And I can imagine some p*ssed off players creating such a game just as a "Screw you" to the Catalyst .

They can't import FailSheps from ME2. People usually find a threshold that gives them the worst possible import, but you can't outright kill off all your squadmates.

If you bring ME3 into the equation, it IS possible to kill off all of your squadmates. There've been several threads detailing how to do it. There've also been people creating threads on how to kill off the Geth and minimize EDI in order to have a somewhat 'clean' Destroy. And no need to merely imagine people creating a 'frell you' playthrough, people were making those thick and fast back in the first few months after launch.

As for ME4, I'll consider buying it if they fix or chuck the current ME3 ending. Starbrat/RGB as canon? Automatic pass.

[99DP1982]

TBH I'd rather they go with some canon ending of their own (like destroy, genophage not cured, rachni wiped, geths wiped, etc) than try to make imports to another game.

There are too many variables that can be universe changing, that there is simply little to no chance to see them in future me game represented in a meaningful way.

First, the big choice are the reapers... This is already a universe changing choice and I doubt that they will make 3 universes for one game... then there are things like Krogan (who was the leader, was the genophage cured, was Eve saved?), where 3 variables pretty much redefine the philosophy of the whole race in the future, Quarians (did you wipe them out?), Geth (did you wipe them out?), Rachni (did you wipe them out?), etc.

I'd say a future me title will be better if they will go with their canon ending. Any possibility of importing the files will just most likely lead to more disappointment, because they will still be met with one in game universe

[Outsider edge]

Femlob wrote...

Unless that fabled final DLC is going to fix the ending and wrap up all the loose ends, ME4 will fail before it has even left the drawing board.

Yup trying too squeeze in more savegame imports will be a very bad idea. The whole ending controversy is still hanging over this IP and if they intend too start off ME4 of those endings it will have an immediate false start. I'm not even talking about BSN and it's pro- and contra groups but the general public. The original endings have left their mark and made Mass Effect synonymous with bad writing especially it's ending in the eyes of the general gamer's public. Just open a topic about Mass Effect on general gamerforums like Eurogamer, Edge, Gamespot, etc. and you'll likely have an ending debate on your hands in mere moments. The EC doesn't matter since the majority (the silent type that went "Veni, Vidi, sell this game" on ME3) never played it they judged the game on it's original ending. Starting off a new game (and perhaps a new trilogy) from this will just bring all that negative attention back. And as history has proven if things really heat up again no ammount of their PR can save them.

On another note even if they do import the big choices for ME4 they'll have problems on their hands especially with Control and Synthesis. Since the Reapers will still be around they'll need a far bigger/darker/ominous threat then them. Essentially boiling down too a MMO treadmill where you need too go ever larger just too eclipse what came before. And eclipsing a threat of the Reapers will be no mean feat. Seeing as what they came up with too deal with that threat in ME3 i somehow have very little fate that they can pull it of anyway. Best option imo is too just make a fresh start. The Shepard trilogy is over a new (possible) trilogy begins anew.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:37 .

[Mcfly616]

Outsider edge wrote...

Femlob wrote...

Unless that fabled final DLC is going to fix the ending and wrap up all the loose ends, ME4 will fail before it has even left the drawing board.

On another note even if they do import the big choices for ME4 they'll have problems on their hands especially with Control and Synthesis. Since the Reapers will still be around they'll need a far bigger/darker/ominous threat then them.

No, they don't. If anything, the next game shouldn't involve another ominous galactic threat. It should be a much smaller threat. Introduce another overwhelming threat to the galaxy and the Reapers would have to be involved. So, if they end up importing the final decision of ME3 into the next game, the smartest way to do it is to not concern the central narrative with the Reapers at all. In Synthesis and Control imports, they can merely be "around" as part of the Universe. Mysterious guardians of the galaxy, not involving themselves with the everyday affairs of the minuscule beings of the galaxy.

[Outsider edge]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Femlob wrote...

Unless that fabled final DLC is going to fix the ending and wrap up all the loose ends, ME4 will fail before it has even left the drawing board.

On another note even if they do import the big choices for ME4 they'll have problems on their hands especially with Control and Synthesis. Since the Reapers will still be around they'll need a far bigger/darker/ominous threat then them.

No, they don't. If anything, the next game shouldn't involve another ominous galactic threat. It should be a much smaller threat. Introduce another overwhelming threat to the galaxy and the Reapers would have to be involved. So, if they end up importing the final decision of ME3 into the next game, the smartest way to do it is to not concern the central narrative with the Reapers at all. In Synthesis and Control imports, they can merely be "around" as part of the Universe. Mysterious guardians of the galaxy, not involving themselves with the everyday affairs of the minuscule beings of the galaxy.

Not going too work. You might not like too hear this but you aswell as pretty much everyone else still on BSN discussing and debating the game are not the prime targets for this new Mass Effect game. Even the greatest criticaster will likely purchase it anyway if the quality is decent. The target demography that they are really after is that silent majority. They want too sell millions of copies again and for that too happen they need something too market too those people. Marketing will want a big ominous threat and since the Reapers in 2/3 of the cases with savegame imports will be around that threat will have too be substantially bigger.

This really has nothing too do with having a smaller more intimate story. Heck i would like that even as many on this board but you won't be able too sell that too the masses. An intimate story is great for the ME-fan that is already heavily invested in it's universe but the CoD-crowd/general gaming public will want the big monsters/dangers and this group makes up the bulk of the multimillion sales.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 17 décembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Diurdi]

You really shouldn't take anything they say about ME4 seriously yet. It's so early in the development process that whatever they say now probably won't be true in 1 year.

Modifié par Diurdi, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Disclaimer: Iakus and I fundamentally disagree on the nature of a continuation canon (he opposes, I support one), and that is perfectly OK.

IsaacShep wrote...

iakus wrote...

I can just imagine trying to come up with a stroy:

"Okay then this quarian captain tells the player..."
"Wait, what if the quarians were wiped out?"
"Okay, this krogan merc has some info-"
"What if the genophage wasn't cured?"
::sigh:: Okay this drell..."
"Kaje got hit?"

FRAK!!!! 

Which is not different to "And then Mordin says... And then Wrex says..." in ME3. There would obviously have to be replacement content. And yes, it backfired in ME3 but there was allllllllllllot more variables with ME2 squadmates than Krogan, Quarian, Geth, Rachni. And they can totally not make the most important characters be Krogan/Geth/Rachni/Quarian at all. There are tons of other races. The choice can be honored in many other ways. Having an exclusive mission to Rachni homeworld if they survived. Exclusive mission to Dyson Sphere if Geth are alive. Or have an exclusive squadmate from one of these races.

Besides that ME3 seemed to move the Geth away from the Dyson sphere with the individuality nonsense, you hit the good point that there's no reason that the major subplots of the first three game will have to be significant in the next three. Even just looking at the nominal (and typically bad) demographics of ME1-3, species like the Quarians and Krogan got far more attention than they warranted based on their population size: the Quarians in particular were a few million total in a galaxy of hundreds of billions, if not trillions, but they were treated as some major population group. Meanwhile, Terminus empires that certainly existed and likely far outnumbered them were never never formally introduced even though their existence is known.


The point isn't that this was wrong of Bioware to do, but simply to recognize that the amount of attention focused on these groups is (by the nature of fiction) arbitrary. These races got as much attention as they did because they were considered major subplots: with their subplots resolved there's no reason they must be major in this new setting. Their role in the narrative, if not in the galaxy, can be relatively minor, leaving them at the margins (and thus easily representable) parts of the game.

Naturally setting will have a lot to do with it... and this is one reason I actually think the Destroy ending would make a best carryover-consequence setting for a 'continuation canon*', because of the isolation imposed by a lack of relays. Even with relays being slowly rebuilt, whether there's a Krogan Empire or The Last Of The Krogan faction they can both remain largely off-screen with only a few, if any, Krogan appearing (due to distances involved). In a galaxy in which Relay-style FTL is still extremely limited or even non-existent, say such as at a time when the galaxy is starting to build new relays, you can easily justify the relatively marginal presence of large factions by distances involved. (Hence why the Krogan Empire or Rachni Hiveworlds are a distant threat, if a threat at all.)

Likewise, a Destroy setting in which non-Relay, 'conventional' FTL is dominant could shape the role or presence of other factions. The Quarians, if they survived, could become (by virtue of their many ships) a major trading power: with trade caravans rather than as refugees, even as a majority of the Quarians live on Rannoch you could still have traders trawling the stars, and these traders (if they exist) would be your primary interaction with the Quarians.


Really, the biggest drawback of Destroy after the 'there can be no canon' dispute is the lack of Geth: that's something that could be handwaved/retconned/changed (oh, hey, the Geth suspected it might happen and made a fail-safe/someone came by and turned the Geth back on afterwards: tensions exist), but showing the Geth consequences might be the most controversial of the ME trilogy arcs.






*A continuation canon is my informal shorthand for an assumed galaxy state used for the purpose of future development: it differs from the idea of a single, solitary canon by virtue of acknowledging that it only carries forward one particular path of multiple valid outcome, which would naturally progress differently in their own continuations. This is the sort of setting which might be introduced as 'Not all Shepards chose Destroy, but for those who did the story continues like so...' It does not claim that all Shepards chose Destroy, it simply acknowledges that some variances in the desired story are too much to ignore and so accepts a foundational backstory for progress. It's not an unknown concept: two largely successful models of continuation canons include The Witcher 2 (which did effectively canonize a romance from TW1, among other things), and Dragon Age Origins: Awakening (which allowed players to retcon their Warden's Sacrifice by importing a dead warden for the Expansion). Even ME2 has a continuation canon in the suicide mission: whatever happens in a Base Kept/Shepard Dead ending, we'll never know.

[JPR1964]

Better they make canon what they want and start anew...

The only end I have is refusal...

They're not going too far with that!

JPR out!

Modifié par JPR1964, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[Mcfly616]

Outsider edge wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Femlob wrote...

Unless that fabled final DLC is going to fix the ending and wrap up all the loose ends, ME4 will fail before it has even left the drawing board.

On another note even if they do import the big choices for ME4 they'll have problems on their hands especially with Control and Synthesis. Since the Reapers will still be around they'll need a far bigger/darker/ominous threat then them.

No, they don't. If anything, the next game shouldn't involve another ominous galactic threat. It should be a much smaller threat. Introduce another overwhelming threat to the galaxy and the Reapers would have to be involved. So, if they end up importing the final decision of ME3 into the next game, the smartest way to do it is to not concern the central narrative with the Reapers at all. In Synthesis and Control imports, they can merely be "around" as part of the Universe. Mysterious guardians of the galaxy, not involving themselves with the everyday affairs of the minuscule beings of the galaxy.

Not going too work. You might not like too hear this but you aswell as pretty much everyone else still on BSN discussing and debating the game are not the prime targets for this new Mass Effect game. Even the greatest criticaster will likely purchase it anyway if the quality is decent. The target demography that they are really after is that silent majority. They want too sell millions of copies again and for that too happen they need something too market too those people. Marketing will want a big ominous threat and since the Reapers in 2/3 of the cases with savegame imports will be around that threat will have too be substantially bigger.

This really has nothing too do with having a smaller more intimate story. Heck i would like that even as many on this board but you won't be able too sell that too the masses. An intimate story is great for the ME-fan that is already heavily invested in it's universe but the CoD-crowd/general gaming public will want the big monsters/dangers and this group makes up the bulk of the multimillion sales.

I blame EA (I know, how predictable it is to blame them....well, its the truth. There influence is all over the sequals)

Well, regardless of whether they choose to have an import feature or not, I really hope they don't make the next villain try to live up to the Reapers. I really can't imagine them coming up with something on a more "Epic" scale than the Reapers. Any attempt to do that, would seemed really contrived. I guess, maybe Dark Energy? That'd be trippy....how do we fight that?


Or an unheard of threat from another galaxy? That'd be stupid though.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[dorktainian]

love the sig JPR. should do a meme.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

No I'm saying if low EMS endings were invalid they should have said so before ME 3 was ever released

But they didn't. Oh well: it still doesn't suddenly stop them from being able to say for ME4 'we presume there's a minimal amount of galactic survival.' It's not like there's any rule out there that says 'you must have all potential sequels already planned out and ready to incorporate all choices before you release a product, and pre-announce which (if any) of those choices is non-canonical.'

And Refuse is the one ending I'm not sure creates an import save. But e en if it was that would p* ss people as there are those who genuinely see it as their canon. And not just Puzzle Theorists. Peak people really hate the orher endings that much

Then those people are going to be disappointed, because the chances that Bioware will design a sequel scenario that incorporates the total genocide of all the established races is just above zilch.

People expecting their extreme (or even fanon) preferences to be treated as equally credible is a self-marginalizing position: by virtue of holding unreasonable expectations in the first place, Bioware has little reason to try to engineer everything to appeal to them. Besides the impossibility of pleasing everyone and thus the long-proven practice of not even trying, this is already a self-identified group of people with impractical expectations and thus more likely to take offense in the first place.


There's a reason that mainstream corporations, politics, and resteraunts don't design their products/policies/food to the pickiest consumers: such people are internally contradicting already, and it's a doomed quest to try some absolutist approach to appeal to everyone.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:53 .

[Lawrence0294]

spirosz wrote...

I'd rather they just start fresh and make it something they enjoy and not make it seem like something "they want to get out of the way" vibe I saw. The whole transfer over system brings too many complications IMO, I'd rather they just make something canon and go from there.

Agreed

[Linkenski]

The Mass Effect universe still has an enormous potential for future stories, even without shepard, and even post-ending. I can't wait to see what they'll figure out.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

If they allow one to import their save and make every ending viable, then I dread to think what their excuse will be to justify the situation being the same.  Could easily be something even more lame than the excuse at KOTOR2 (yes, I know that was made by Obsedian, but it was a sequel to a bioware game). 

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I guess that's a virtual confirmation that the next game will be a sequel rather than a prequel now, no?

Sadly seems like it. 

[SpamBot2000]

IsaacShep wrote...

iakus wrote...

You realize this was a complaint of ME3, right?  The  Biff the Understudy characters so the story would proceed with minimal variations based on your choices?

It's gonna be a complaint when used incorrectly. Travelling to Geth Cementary instead of Dyson Sphere would be a real difference. Some content could be made exclusive, some cutscenes skipped completly and having replacement characters in only part of the situations. Or have completly different character in different places provide you similar information.

Because basing exclusive content on the beginning state of the game instead of, say, choices the player makes in that game is such a good idea?

[pablosplinter]

Don't care about using saves from ME3....If I throw Allers off the ship, they will only bring her back as a clone or something in ME4

[N7-RedFox]

OP im sure i remember Casey Hudson telling people to hold onto their ME3 saves even before ME4 was announced.