214 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

CaptainTeabag wrote...

OP im sure i remember Casey Hudson telling people to hold onto their ME3 saves even before ME4 was announced.

yes he did because if i remember correctly he said they had something really cool planned.....and those saves always default at chronos station......so.........?

[SpamBot2000]

Isn't it about time for people to snap out of the illusion that the ending was there to make a super awesome climax and face the fact that it was done to wrap up the Mass Effect once and for all? And now it's time for the undoing, if we're going to have anything happen in this rich, vibrant setting again.

You cannot be BOTH for a galaxy-defining end choice AND a sequel. So the EPIC CHOICE YOU FACE is between these mutually contradictory things. You can't have everything in life.

Some kind of a fan consensus here would obviously be tremendously helpful to BioWare right at this early planning stage of ME4. If it turns out people like the idea of a sequel better than the option of running through the Blue, the Green and the Red Catalyst solutions over and over, ME4 might have a real chance of being something great.

I realize that some people might be resistant to this message coming from me, since for some strange reason not everybody thinks I'm such a cool dude. But I sincerely feel this is a very important thing to consider at this point in time for anybody who cares about the potential future of Mass Effect. 

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 décembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

People expecting their extreme (or even fanon) preferences to be treated as equally credible is a self-marginalizing position: by virtue of holding unreasonable expectations in the first place, Bioware has little reason to try to engineer everything to appeal to them. Besides the impossibility of pleasing everyone and thus the long-proven practice of not even trying, this is already a self-identified group of people with impractical expectations and thus more likely to take offense in the first place.

Thus why there should be no canon, no imports going into ME4.  Everyone has a blank slate.  Nobody has expectations.  Everyone starts out in the same place.  Bioware doesn't hae to worry about validating this person or that person's chocies and simply focus on making a good game.

There's a reason that mainstream corporations, politics, and resteraunts don't design their products/policies/food to the pickiest consumers: such people are internally contradicting already, and it's a doomed quest to try some absolutist approach to appeal to everyone.

And trying to accomodate everyone's or even most people's save imports will be a similar exercise in futility.  They will either spread themselves too thin and water down the game or validate the complaint that "my choices didn't matter"

[SpamBot2000]

I'm just gonna bump this thread, because I actually find the discussion here somewhat urgent. And not just my post, though those naturally are always essential reading.

This is the time when they are deciding on the future direction of ME.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 décembre 2012 - 05:48 .

[Rafficus III]

You can tell Walters is a little shook up about the ending fiasco. He looks a bit unnerved and trying to word his statements very carefully. Don't really blame him, but I think at some point he and others on staff are going to need to understand the EC compromise doesn't solve the core problem with what fans were bitter about. My heart goes out to the guy, because he, Hudson, and others received some pretty flagrant feedback and insults after delivering a very memorable trilogy. That said, they got their fan speculations, the record breaking sales, the publicity, and they got fans talking... just not the way they probably hoped. I think it'd probably be best that they started looking into implementing post-ending or additional ending DLC to maintain incentive to replay this game and keep some fresh blood flowing through this game's veins. Until the ending is cleared up and fans receive a decent and/or happy ending, they're going to continue to bomb the future DLC ratings and potentially ME4; that's just the cold hard truth.


Although I love ME3 and the ME trilogy itself, along with the MP, if we don't receive any ending or post-ending DLC, I'm done for a few good months. I've already made up my mind I'm leaving my console and ME trilogy behind, as I move half-way across the country, and if nothing changes to the ending or post-ending, I won't bother playing ME3 anytime soon. I'm on my 17th playthrough, am Best of the Best on MP, and have close to 18,000 war assets. I've done it all and seen it all; a DLC that has no impact on the ending or afterwards is trivial now to me, no matter how much I love the ME universe. With that said, I wish Bioware the best and I hope they do give some edge and come up with a happy and/or decent additional ending/post-ending content; otherwise, this ship has sailed.

Modifié par hornedfrog87, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:32 .

[shepskisaac]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

I'm just gonna bump this thread, because I actually find the discussion here somewhat urgent. And not just my post, though those naturally are always essential reading.

This is the time when they are deciding on the future direction of ME.

But I think the message "we want a sequel" has already been heard loud and clear. When Casey asked on Twitter what do fans want, sequel answer was dominant. So it is in BSN polls. So it was on IGN poll. I doubt we can do anything more at this point, it's only up to them now.

[Dr_Extrem]

IsaacShep wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

I'm just gonna bump this thread, because I actually find the discussion here somewhat urgent. And not just my post, though those naturally are always essential reading.

This is the time when they are deciding on the future direction of ME.

But I think the message "we want a sequel" has already been heard loud and clear. When Casey asked on Twitter what do fans want, sequel answer was dominant. So it is in BSN polls. So it was on IGN poll. I doubt we can do anything more at this point, it's only up to them now.

absolutly ..

my guess is, that this is the reason, they brought the whole writing team back ... they have to do something with mass effect 3, in order to make the writing of the next game not an absolute pain in the a**. it was hard enough to write the 3rd game - according to the writers.

if they choose any ending as canon, the forums will burn for ever and sales will drop.
if your ending choice matters in the next game, they would have to relativise them, in order to tell the story properly.

i.e.: synthesis and destroy are so fundamentually different, that you cant write a unified story, set in the future, without cutting corners. synthesis is not just a "green skin mod" they can smack on the faces of the people .. its a completely new form of life and society. control could be intersting as well .. where is my shep-ai and his/her reapers? .. "well . they are on ... patrol ..."

these endings were written to finish and conclude the mass effect universe. if they want to continue, they need a new ending .. an ending, they can build up upon.

[SpamBot2000]

IsaacShep wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

I'm just gonna bump this thread, because I actually find the discussion here somewhat urgent. And not just my post, though those naturally are always essential reading.

This is the time when they are deciding on the future direction of ME.

But I think the message "we want a sequel" has already been heard loud and clear. When Casey asked on Twitter what do fans want, sequel answer was dominant. So it is in BSN polls. So it was on IGN poll. I doubt we can do anything more at this point, it's only up to them now.

Having a sequel is one thing. Having that sequel be great is a better thing. After all the hard feelings, I still somehow feel like this should be given a chance to succeed at least. And I feel BSN continuing to demand contradictory things like both massive end choice in 3 and a sequel that respects all the possible results of that choice is going to tie BW's hands in designing ME4.

Edit: Wow, writing this stuff is making me feel like a sucker. But such is life.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 décembre 2012 - 07:27 .

[David7204]

There's been no significant conflicts in the past with humans and aliens to write a story about. The First Contact War only had about six hundred human casualties and slightly more turian. That isn't enough to make a 40 hour game with.

The alternatives would be either make up a story about a conflict somehow kept secret (which would almost surely cause screw-ups with continuity and such) or make one without humans entirely.

[Grubas]

Maybe a story with a mad AI. A classic si-fi theme never gets old.

[rapscallioness]

I really don't see them doing any save import stuff. In fact, I don't want to see it---Unless! it was done thoroughly and extraordinarily well. As in, darn near 3 distinct games based on your end choice.

Like Destroy=sum post apocalyptic type of game
Synth.=...cyberpunk type of future?
Control= i ahve no idea. didn't play that one. haven't utoobd it--yet. but for some reason i think zombies..idk

Point is, it would have to be significant, game spanning differences for me to have any respect for it. And frankly, I don't think they can do that. Not tech wise. Nor do I think they have the will for it.

As far as Shep., I would personally like a new PC. That said, anything can happen. Anything. Sum plausible gobbledy-****** and off we go.

There was alot of space magic going on at the end. Shep, god help us all, could actually come back. I could see a trailer tlking bt. "These were your choices. Now...you have to Live w/them" Then Boom! Shep opens her/his eyes. 500-1000 years in the future.

Anything. Shep coulda been in sum weird space magic sustained coma...

However, I would still rather have a new PC. Preferably one w/more personality. Not so marine-y.

What I got from that bit of vid was...they have no idea. But if they do go w/save import, they better come correct. No half azz, throw away lines, pretty much the same for everybody nonsense.

It would have to be 3 Completely Diff Backdrops. I don't think they can do it. Although, it would color me intrigued...

[AlanC9]

SpamBot2000 wrote...
You cannot be BOTH for a galaxy-defining end choice AND a sequel. So the EPIC CHOICE YOU FACE is between these mutually contradictory things. You can't have everything in life.

Why not?

It means canonizing an ending, sure. But I don't consider that a problem -- I wanted canon endings for both DA:O and KotOR.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

People expecting their extreme (or even fanon) preferences to be treated as equally credible is a self-marginalizing position: by virtue of holding unreasonable expectations in the first place, Bioware has little reason to try to engineer everything to appeal to them. Besides the impossibility of pleasing everyone and thus the long-proven practice of not even trying, this is already a self-identified group of people with impractical expectations and thus more likely to take offense in the first place.

Thus why there should be no canon, no imports going into ME4.  Everyone has a blank slate.  Nobody has expectations.  Everyone starts out in the same place.  Bioware doesn't hae to worry about validating this person or that person's chocies and simply focus on making a good game.

What problem does this actually solve, though?

The unreasonable people will not be appeased: they'll be disgruntled because you're ignorring their preferences. The reasonable people won't be appeased either, because you're disregarding all the potential value of a sequel in the first place, IE building off of what came before. Given that the unreasonable people will be disgruntled regardless, but the reasonable people wouldn't be disgruntled with a plausible scenario, you're just working against everyone rather than working with some.

If Bioware doesn't need to worry about this person or that person's choices, why shouldn't they go with the narrative continuation that regardless of who in particular is not pleased, knowing that it will please some? As it is, your solution has been to displease everyone for a game state no one can have, which doesn't exactly seem like an improvement over even a marginal support base.

And trying to accomodate everyone's or even most people's save imports will be a similar exercise in futility.  They will either spread themselves too thin and water down the game or validate the complaint that "my choices didn't matter"

So... don't? I'm not seeing the problem here, unless you're taking some reducto ad absurdem approach that all choices must be equally reflected.

Considering that nearly all of the Big Decisions bar the Crucible state itself can be handled simply by lowering the major plot threads of ME3 to side-plot elements and focusing the narrative on new plot threads, there's not exactly much that is crucially different within the scope of any of the Crucible decisions.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 décembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[Peranor]

IsaacShep wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

I'm just gonna bump this thread, because I actually find the discussion here somewhat urgent. And not just my post, though those naturally are always essential reading.

This is the time when they are deciding on the future direction of ME.

But I think the message "we want a sequel" has already been heard loud and clear. When Casey asked on Twitter what do fans want, sequel answer was dominant. So it is in BSN polls. So it was on IGN poll. I doubt we can do anything more at this point, it's only up to them now.

This is why we are getting a prequel 
It going to be glorious when Bioware announces a prequel and the forums is set on fire with complaints from people saying that they never wanted a prequel, and then the white knights come rolling in saying "a prequel is what you fans asked for all along. It's your own fault".

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The unreasonable people will not be appeased: they'll be disgruntled because you're ignorring their preferences. The reasonable people won't be appeased either, because you're disregarding all the potential value of a sequel in the first place, IE building off of what came before. Given that the unreasonable people will be disgruntled regardless, but the reasonable people wouldn't be disgruntled with a plausible scenario, you're just working against everyone rather than working with some.

Because I think reasonable peple will understand that at some point, you have to reboot or the game will collapse under the variables, and the state of the galaxy is a very large set of variables.

 You've already advocated excluding some imports due to being unworkable.  Who gets to decide which stay and which go?  What you advocate is favoritism

If Bioware doesn't need to worry about this person or that person's choices, why shouldn't they go with the narrative continuation that regardless of who in particular is not pleased, knowing that it will please some? As it is, your solution has been to displease everyone for a game state no one can have, which doesn't exactly seem like an improvement over even a marginal support base.

RPGs have been around long before save imports.  This will be a new game, new characters, possibly a new series that happens to be set in the same universe.  LucasArts doesn't do save imports for their Star Wars games, do they?

So... don't? I'm not seeing the problem here, unless you're taking some reducto ad absurdem approach that all choices must be equally reflected.

I'm saying everyone gets the same starting point.  Players and developers.  Shepard's trilogy is Shepard's trilogy, this is going to be something new.  Therefore, it's time for a clean slate.  If you only honor some player's imports and not others, that is absurd.

Considering that nearly all of the Big Decisions bar the Crucible state itself can be handled simply by lowering the major plot threads of ME3 to side-plot elements and focusing the narrative on new plot threads, there's not exactly much that is crucially different within the scope of any of the Crucible decisions.

So...what, the Crucible choice didn't matter anyway? 

[XqctaX]

and the hype beginns. seriosuly i doubt it will connect anything choicewise from me3 to me4.


also very bias interview.

[paul165]

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...
You cannot be BOTH for a galaxy-defining end choice AND a sequel. So the EPIC CHOICE YOU FACE is between these mutually contradictory things. You can't have everything in life.

Why not?

It means canonizing an ending, sure. But I don't consider that a problem -- I wanted canon endings for both DA:O and KotOR.

Why? I know how my DAO and KotoR ended that was good enough for me I don't (didn't in the case of KotoR I/II) appreciate an external authority coming in and saying nope you played it wrong this is what was supposed to happen.

That said I agree that if they really, really have to do an ME4 a canon ending is the way to go.

[AlanC9]

paul165 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
It means canonizing an ending, sure. But I don't consider that a problem -- I wanted canon endings for both DA:O and KotOR.

Why? I know how my DAO and KotoR ended that was good enough for me I don't (didn't in the case of KotoR I/II) appreciate an external authority coming in and saying nope you played it wrong this is what was supposed to happen.

In DA:O's case I thought that the only chance the DR had to be important was if it was canonized. Spambot's on to something -- a choice can't go both ways if it's significant, since they can't design two different sequels.

And in KotOR's case we had two wildly different endings, which I liked very much. The problem is that KotOR 2 ground them both into identical mush. They should have picked either LS Revan or DS Revan for the sequel.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well Mac, there's one way to fix this, if you've got the guts, and here's the brilliant part of this. It can all be done in the codex, and no one will care! I once again give you Elephant Theory.

The game will sell. Just write a good, fun, story, and give us a good, fun, ending.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Because I think reasonable peple will understand that at some point, you have to reboot or the game will collapse under the variables, and the state of the galaxy is a very large set of variables.

ME doesn't need a massive reboot, though: just a time skip and change of protagonist alone would remove the vast majority of choices from needing to be reflected. The only choices that would even stand to be reflected after enough time would be the Big Decisions, and among them the only Decision State that really has unreconciliable differences to the galactic setting is the Crucible.

Even a reboot establishes a canon, so it's not like you're getting away from that issue either. Enforcing a canon in order to reject a complaint of canon doesn't resolve the issue of people being disatisfied with a canon.

 You've already advocated excluding some imports due to being unworkable.  Who gets to decide which stay and which go?

The writers. That is quite literally their job, and one they've already done at every part of the franchise.

What you advocate is favoritism

Not really. It would be favoritism if I insisted that it would only work if my preferred option were pursued, but I don't. I may personally feel that Destroy offers the best post-war setting for a continuation story (avoiding conflicts of interpretation as to the nature/conduct of the Shepalyst, and avoiding defining the deliberate ambiguity of Synthesis), but you could do it quite easily with either other ending.

RPGs have been around long before save imports.  This will be a new game, new characters, possibly a new series that happens to be set in the same universe.  LucasArts doesn't do save imports for their Star Wars games, do they?

LucasArts doesn't define their franchise as having a heavy emphasis on RPG carry-over either. I wouldn't equate Mass Effect to Star Wars any more than I'd equate Star Wars to Lord of the Rings: they're so different in design and design principle that any comparison I could make for an argument would be innately biased and self-serving.

I'm saying everyone gets the same starting point.  Players and developers.  Shepard's trilogy is Shepard's trilogy, this is going to be something new.  Therefore, it's time for a clean slate.  If you only honor some player's imports and not others, that is absurd.

That's the standard that's already existed. That's the standard that not only has existed, but by the nature of story design always will exist: the writers of RPG sequels are always going reserve the right to empahsize their elements of choice and ignore others. That's why we got the Council characterization we got in ME2, the Collector Base carryover we got in ME3, and why Jack is a teacher regardless of what her ME2 loyalty mission choice was. Regardless of what some people feel their import states should lead to, Bioware has never claimed or promissed to follow up on all of them.

Now, granted, that might not make it any less absurd to you... but history doesn't have to be reasonable, it just has to have happened.

Considering that nearly all of the Big Decisions bar the Crucible state itself can be handled simply by lowering the major plot threads of ME3 to side-plot elements and focusing the narrative on new plot threads, there's not exactly much that is crucially different within the scope of any of the Crucible decisions.

So...what, the Crucible choice didn't matter anyway? 

...er, the exact opposite. The Crucible choice consequences are so different, they're the only ones that make an import-sequel implausible because of the differences between the choices.

The rest? Big Decisions 'matter', for whatever standard that means, but they can serve equivalent or minor rolls. Whether the Krogan are an empire or a dying army, they can serve as an interchangeable token force: Quarians and Geth can be a modest galactic presence and so their presence either exchanged or even dropped with minimal affect. But a galaxy in which the Relays are quickly rebuilt by an armada of Reapers, versus one in which there are no relays and the Reapers are not present...

[LeandroBraz]

Even if they don't have plans to use the save, they will tell us to keep it, better safe than sorry...


I'm really hoping that they will have the guts to say "we gonna choose one timeline and show what happen on it". If they try to please everyone, and keep our decisions of the trilogy, there's a high chance that they will turn every consequence into some kind of generic consequence to cover every decision, so don't matter what you did, you will end up in the same place. It's a lot better to just choose the decisions that give a more interesting outcome (for example, having both geth and quarian alive, living together on Rannoch, is by far a more rich and interesting scenario than getting one of them killed on ME3), and stick with it. It's not a Canon, the other timelines still official, but we will have better results with Bioware working with a single timeline.

[WhiteKnyght]

Epic777 wrote...

I will just say be real. Bioware couldn't pull of choice in this trilogy. Don't expect Bioware to honor all the choices in ME4. Expect alot of recons, cutting and marginalizing.

ME3 took in over 1000 variables between ME1 and ME2. And the events of the game, from beginning to end, have several variances depending on those choices.

Nobody ever promised you a big grandiose difference for each decision. It's the little things that matter, they make up the whole of the game. Just because your choices didn't affect the last three missions of the game, does not mean they didn't matter. The Genophage, Geth/Quarian, etc stories were wrapped up in plenty of variances based on your choices. And were wrapped up beforehand, in order to bring everyone together to fight the Reapers. If you hadn't done any of it, you wouldn't have gotten it done.

Making snap judgments about the future of the franchise is not "being real." It's just a lame ass assumption. Pure ignorance.

Even if you're right. You'll buy it anyway, you'll play it anyway, and you'll probably enjoy it anyway, even if you don't admit it. Biggest thing I notice. People hate on the ending, hate on Bioware, and hate on everything Bioware puts out; but I don't see them leaving, I see them buying and continuing to buy.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 18 décembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[Epic777]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

I will just say be real. Bioware couldn't pull of choice in this trilogy. Don't expect Bioware to honor all the choices in ME4. Expect alot of recons, cutting and marginalizing.

ME3 took in over 1000 variables between ME1 and ME2. And the events of the game, from beginning to end, have several variances depending on those choices.

Nobody ever promised you a big grandiose difference for each decision. It's the little things that matter, they make up the whole of the game. Just because your choices didn't affect the last three missions of the game, does not mean they didn't matter. The Genophage, Geth/Quarian, etc stories were wrapped up in plenty of variances based on your choices. And were wrapped up beforehand, in order to bring everyone together to fight the Reapers. If you hadn't done any of it, you wouldn't have gotten it done.

Making snap judgments about the future of the franchise is not "being real." It's just a lame ass assumption. Pure ignorance.

Even if you're right. You'll buy it anyway, you'll play it anyway, and you'll probably enjoy it anyway, even if you don't admit it. Biggest thing I notice. People hate on the ending, hate on Bioware, and hate on everything Bioware puts out; but I don't see them leaving, I see them buying and continuing to buy.

Do not assume to know me. To this day I have not bought a single piece of ME3 DLC. 

Since you speak of promises?

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."
"You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people."

-Mike Gamble
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

The thing I will say about Mass Effect 3 is that the choices you’ve made previously, and the differences that those choices represent, are much bigger than they’ve been in the past. [The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.-Mac Walters-http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

Ignorance? An normal game honoring the choices made before would be a challenge. For ME4 to honor the final ending choices would be an extra challenge given their nature. You speak of 1000 variables, what makes you think the variables have gone down? The krogan may have these scenarios at the end; wrex alive, bakara alive with the genophage cured, wrex alive, bakara dead with the genophage cured, wrex dead,bakara alive with the genophage sabotaged, etc.
Bioware has not shown they can pull that sort of thing off.

[Reth Shepherd]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

I will just say be real. Bioware couldn't pull of choice in this trilogy. Don't expect Bioware to honor all the choices in ME4. Expect alot of recons, cutting and marginalizing.

ME3 took in over 1000 variables between ME1 and ME2. And the events of the game, from beginning to end, have several variances depending on those choices.

Nobody ever promised you a big grandiose difference for each decision. It's the little things that matter, they make up the whole of the game. Just because your choices didn't affect the last three missions of the game, does not mean they didn't matter. The Genophage, Geth/Quarian, etc stories were wrapped up in plenty of variances based on your choices. And were wrapped up beforehand, in order to bring everyone together to fight the Reapers. If you hadn't done any of it, you wouldn't have gotten it done.

Making snap judgments about the future of the franchise is not "being real." It's just a lame ass assumption. Pure ignorance.

Even if you're right. You'll buy it anyway, you'll play it anyway, and you'll probably enjoy it anyway, even if you don't admit it. Biggest thing I notice. People hate on the ending, hate on Bioware, and hate on everything Bioware puts out; but I don't see them leaving, I see them buying and continuing to buy.

Who do you see hating on Bioware and then buying everything they put out? I've certainly not. Have not downloaded one single thing since March. No MP, no EC, DEFINITELY no DLCs. I've observed quite a few people doing precisely the same thing. Not to mention a growing group who stated that they bought Levi, but no way no how were they getting Omega. (Further VERY minor support given in that Bioware has been strangely quiet about Omega's sales. Levi they trumpeted from the rooftops, if you'll recall. Omega? Not only not a peep; I've been directly asking and have yet to find anyone who knows or is allowed to give that info out. That said, I will be the first to admit that there are other possible reasons why they could be keeping the numbers quiet.) What do you call the 'haters' who haven't been able to touch the game since March? Do you think THEY will be buying, playing, enjoying?

We are making assumptions about the future of the franchise and the future of Bioware based on what information we have. What have they put out lately? DA2. ME3. ME: Deception. The frelling awful EC, which proved they had no CLUE what was wrong with the masterpiece they put out! Actually, I take that back. We've heard from more than one source that individual writers and Bioware employees know where ME3 fell down. And yet the official line is still that it's amazing, great, and it's only a "vocal minority" who don't like it. Does that sound like a corporation that we can trust to make great games? EA owns Bioware. Take a look at EA's kill list sometime. Compare EA's checklist of demands to the games Bioware has been making lately. Sound familiar? Let me make this very clear: I do NOT want Bioware to die. Problem is, I want EA destroyed, and unfortunately I can't see any way to do that that doesn't take Bioware with it. Right now my main hope is that someone else buys them. I still believe they could be great again, but it's not going to happen under EA's watch.

As for choices mattering, go read the Marauder Shields comic. Compare that, which heavily features past events, choices, and people all making a difference of one kind or another WITHOUT IT FEELING FORCED, to Starboy and RGB. If you can't see the difference, I'm sorry, but a debate is pointless.