211 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That doesn't mean she is not a prothean expert.  We can't fault her for info she could not of gotten.

You can't call yourself an expert on something and then claim that because there was no information on the topic available you couldn't know anything about it.  That means that no one could be an expert.

I could claim I'm an expert on talking cows.  I am the de facto, certified expert on English speaking cows.  Oh, so what if there's no information that they actually exist.  I am the expert.  I'd need medication if that was the case.

Experts also would be able to examine things and say that something does not fit in with the other things that a bygone era created.  Since the reapers do always remove or get rid of signs of previous civilizations before they leave, it's kind of a mess of an idea to think that very much at all would be known about the Protheans.  It also calls into question the sudden expansion in the size and number of newly discovered Prothean knowledge and sites.  Mars suddenly has archives.  And TIM apparently has more knowledge of what's inside and again is quicker to act upon it than anyone else, including the expert who is again wrong, because the crucible is not a Prothean device at all.  Who knows who created it?

Yes, you can. Every ancient egyptian, ancient  south ameria, and ancient  india reachers does this. All these cultureshave massive amount of missing info on them  and yet we have peopel calling them selves experts on them.
Your thinking too narrow mindedly.

Historian and archaeologist are only experts on the info they have on hand. Of couse they are not going to have all the info on a socitie that happens over thansands of years ago. They are still experts.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That doesn't mean she is not a prothean expert.  We can't fault her for info she could not of gotten.

You can't call yourself an expert on something and then claim that because there was no information on the topic available you couldn't know anything about it.  That means that no one could be an expert.

I could claim I'm an expert on talking cows.  I am the de facto, certified expert on English speaking cows.  Oh, so what if there's no information that they actually exist.  I am the expert.  I'd need medication if that was the case.

Experts also would be able to examine things and say that something does not fit in with the other things that a bygone era created.  Since the reapers do always remove or get rid of signs of previous civilizations before they leave, it's kind of a mess of an idea to think that very much at all would be known about the Protheans.  It also calls into question the sudden expansion in the size and number of newly discovered Prothean knowledge and sites.  Mars suddenly has archives.  And TIM apparently has more knowledge of what's inside and again is quicker to act upon it than anyone else, including the expert who is again wrong, because the crucible is not a Prothean device at all.  Who knows who created it?

Yes, you can. Every ancient egyptian, ancient  south ameria, and ancient  india reachers does this. All these cultureshave massive amount of missing info on them  and yet we have peopel calling them selves experts on them.
Your thinking too narrow mindedly.

Historian and archaeologist are only experts on the info they have on hand. Of couse they are not going to have all the info on a socitie that happens over thansands of years ago. They are still experts.

She didn't say Liara wasn't a Prothean expert, she said Liara wasn't a good one

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@3D, he's Dreman

You're seriously saying someoneis going to look up information they have no questions or intrest about just because?

She was comparing Glyph to a dictionary

Glyph is moreof an index , the sb datebase is the dictionary and even then you still have to the curiousityand interset to look up that info. If Liara's intrest is about finding a way to stop the reapers , why on earth would she find intrast in anything the turians did to the krogan in sercet.

Use some cause and effectus understanding.

What would be the cause of  Liara knowing about any of the info you expect Liara to know?

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
You do realise that a good protion of what Liara thinks about the protheans is because of her teachers and what is generally thought and know a them?

It not just Liara who it wrong but every person who studied and learned about them. It a case of people filling the holes with what they belive when studing something that has a lot of gaps of infomation in it. All studies of past  events and sociaties do this.

Added, your forgetthe fact here that see did find something from the protheans to stop the reapers.

I fully understand where Liara gets her info, but she is set up as the expert.  She's wrong in a lot of ways, so not a very good expert.  Neither is anyone else a great expert, but she is THE expert.

Basically in studying past civilizations a lot of people will say they don't know what fills in the gaps.  They offer hypotheses, but do not make up fantasies about them.  The Mayan civilization disappeared and I state as THE Mayan expert that they invented space travel and went to live on Neptune.  I might say this could have happened (uh probably not), but if I say this did happen, I have problems. 

I realize that handed down information often becomes fact, but experts don't rely on information others give them.  Not when they are doing the digging themselves.

And correction:  Liara found something that is not Prothean and that appears to be a weapon (she says it is), that helps to again provide the reaper commander kid with a solution.  It's questionable as to its value at stopping the reapers.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[LinksOcarina]

AresKeith wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I don't want to derail this too much, so you can PM the answer to this question if you like.

What year did Rome fall? 

What does that have to do with anything?

humor me for a moment and I will explain how it ties in.

476 AD I think

Thank you.

The date you gave me was first postulated by a historian named Edward Gibbons, who wrote a historical book about the fall of rome that become the groundwork for most subsequent historians up until the mid 20th century. Gibbons thought that Rome fell at this date because it was the last year there was an official Roman Emperor. 

The book was titled of couse, the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. His work was so famous he became the first modern historian of Rome in some circles. Yet while it is a groundwork book, it is also inaccurate and treats its sources as a postivist source material, which was prevelant at the time, meaning it was face value. And based off that, the reasons Gibbon's gave for the fall was due to barbarian invasions and a lack of civic virtues among its own people, essentially lack of caring for the empire because of distractions such as religion or personal gain. 

In truth, Rome never "fell" in a traditional sense. Historians can now argue that it lived on in the Bzantine Empire for 1000 years after, it fell before 476 due to economic collapse, it didn't fall but transformed into the fuedalist system which resulted in the dark ages. Everything from Barbarians to Christians to corruption to trade and commerce to disease and the splitting of the empire have been blamed and used as a marker for the fall of Rome. 

So why is 476 the accepted date? Because it is the popular opinion. That doesn't make it right, it just makes its a marker for historians to base their work on.

My point, which should tie into 3Ds' explaination, is of course Liara presumes much about the Protheans. What is popular about them is the relics they find, all archeological findings and such, are taken at face value based off of the record the species have. Liara is much like Gibbons in this way because she is very positivist in her findings. But the assertions about the protheans, uniters of the galaxy and non-despotic, are assertions in popular belief.

That is like me saying the Romans united all of Europe peacefully. In many cases they did, but they used a sword to do it. It becomes relative to the facts we know, versus the unknown. And as an actual historian, I loved the idea that they got it wrong because it shows how history is always somewhat biased unless you read between the lines. Our pal Gibbons, for example, blamed the loss of Civic Virtue due to Christianity, and he was outspoken against organized religion in the 18th century when he wrote his master work. 

So did Rome fall in 476? Technically no, but we can say it did based on the evidence. For Liara and other archeologists or historians, they can say that the Prothean's were a cultural renissance based off of what they found. In the end, the truth is always more complex. That doesn't make them bad experts, that just makes them modern historians, because they don't have all the answers and postulated a popular opinion. 

Anyway sorry for the long-winded answer.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That doesn't mean she is not a prothean expert.  We can't fault her for info she could not of gotten.

You can't call yourself an expert on something and then claim that because there was no information on the topic available you couldn't know anything about it.  That means that no one could be an expert.

I could claim I'm an expert on talking cows.  I am the de facto, certified expert on English speaking cows.  Oh, so what if there's no information that they actually exist.  I am the expert.  I'd need medication if that was the case.

Experts also would be able to examine things and say that something does not fit in with the other things that a bygone era created.  Since the reapers do always remove or get rid of signs of previous civilizations before they leave, it's kind of a mess of an idea to think that very much at all would be known about the Protheans.  It also calls into question the sudden expansion in the size and number of newly discovered Prothean knowledge and sites.  Mars suddenly has archives.  And TIM apparently has more knowledge of what's inside and again is quicker to act upon it than anyone else, including the expert who is again wrong, because the crucible is not a Prothean device at all.  Who knows who created it?

Yes, you can. Every ancient egyptian, ancient  south ameria, and ancient  india reachers does this. All these cultureshave massive amount of missing info on them  and yet we have peopel calling them selves experts on them.
Your thinking too narrow mindedly.

Historian and archaeologist are only experts on the info they have on hand. Of couse they are not going to have all the info on a socitie that happens over thansands of years ago. They are still experts.

She didn't say Liara wasn't a Prothean expert, she said Liara wasn't a good one

Everything she statedhas nothing to do nor illustrate Liara ia a bad expert on protheans.


Historian and archaeologist are only experts on the info they have on hand. Of couse they are not going to have all the info on a socitie that happens over thansands of years ago. They are still experts.

If Liara was able to get the the protheans fell to a cycle of extiction on her own with the info onhand, that means she is a great expert.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@3D, he's Dreman

You're seriously saying someoneis going to look up information they have no questions or intrest about just because?

She was comparing Glyph to a dictionary

Glyph is moreof an index , the sb datebase is the dictionary and even then you still have to the curiousityand interset to look up that info. If Liara's intrest is about finding a way to stop the reapers , why on earth would she find intrast in anything the turians did to the krogan in sercet.

Use some cause and effectus understanding.

What would be the cause of  Liara knowing about any of the info you expect Liara to know?

Um maybe because they said if she wanted to, she could. And there probably was very important stuff in the SB database she could have used and Glyph could have found it for her.

Derp

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You do realise that a good protion of what Liara thinks about the protheans is because of her teachers and what is generally thought and know a them?

It not just Liara who it wrong but every person who studied and learned about them. It a case of people filling the holes with what they belive when studing something that has a lot of gaps of infomation in it. All studies of past  events and sociaties do this.

Added, your forgetthe fact here that see did find something from the protheans to stop the reapers.

I fully understand where Liara gets her info, but she is set up as the expert.  She's wrong in a lot of ways, so not a very good expert.  Neither is anyone else a great expert, but she is THE expert.

Basically in studying past civilizations a lot of people will say they don't know what fills in the gaps.  They offer hypotheses, but do not make up fantasies about them.  The Mayan civilization disappeared and I state as THE Mayan expert that they invented space travel and went to live on Neptune.  I might say this could have happened (uh probably not), but if I say this did happen, I have problems. 

I realize that handed down information often becomes fact, but experts don't rely on information others give them.  Not when they are doing the digging themselves.

Historian and archaeologist are only experts on the info they have on hand. Of couse they are not going to have all the info on a socitie that happens over thansands of years ago. They are still experts.

And experts do rely on  information others give them untill it proven wrong or a question of if that info is correct comes up.
Saying the protheans are not what She expect them to be does not make herabadprothean expert, especial with the little info left about them.
Everyone was wrong about it.

[AresKeith]

@LinksOcarina I get what your saying, its basically my personally opinion on people who call themselves experts

But I'm not saying Liara isn't a Prothean Expert, but after you get Javik it makes her not a good one

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@3D, he's Dreman

You're seriously saying someoneis going to look up information they have no questions or intrest about just because?

She was comparing Glyph to a dictionary

Glyph is moreof an index , the sb datebase is the dictionary and even then you still have to the curiousityand interset to look up that info. If Liara's intrest is about finding a way to stop the reapers , why on earth would she find intrast in anything the turians did to the krogan in sercet.

Use some cause and effectus understanding.

What would be the cause of  Liara knowing about any of the info you expect Liara to know?

Um maybe because they said if she wanted to, she could. And there probably was very important stuff in the SB database she could have used and Glyph could have found it for her.

Derp

The point of wanting to and doing misses the point of what would get her to want to. That my point, what would get her to want to look up what the turian did to the krogan in secret after the krogan rebellions. What would get her to want to look up any of the info you're say she sould know if the info she wants to look up is about the reapers?

[LinksOcarina]

AresKeith wrote...

@LinksOcarina I get what your saying, its basically my personally opinion on people who call themselves experts

But I'm not saying Liara isn't a Prothean Expert, but after you get Javik it makes her not a good one

In that same vein, it should be said that all Prothean experts are not good ones then. Javik is the smoking gun that would never exist until we invent time travel .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

@LinksOcarina I get what your saying, its basically my personally opinion on people who call themselves experts

But I'm not saying Liara isn't a Prothean Expert, but after you get Javik it makes her not a good one

That does not make her not a good one. It just show the issue of historians.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:15 .

[LinksOcarina]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@LinksOcarina I get what your saying, its basically my personally opinion on people who call themselves experts

But I'm not saying Liara isn't a Prothean Expert, but after you get Javik it makes her not a good one

That does not make her not a good one. It just show the issue of historians.

I know.

thats kinda the point....no?

[Barquiel]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


You're right, she is wrong about prothean culture. But she discovered the extinction cycle all on her own (and gets laughed at). That alone is astounding. She also knows that the protheans didn't build the citadel and the relays. Liara was obviously closer to the truth than other prothean experts in our cycle.

Except she didn't.  In the codex there are entries about other civilizations that were wiped out and indications of horrific events that happened (cycles of extinction).  That's the problem with the Asari, that they often don't want to know what they know.  Remember, they had the VI hidden in the temple.  It's just as likely they knew about the cycles and were ignoring them.  They hid the VI to learn from it in order to know more than the other races, it seems. 

People regarded Liara as little more than a conspiracy theorist because of her theories about the protheans and the cycle of extinction. She isn't THE prothean expert in the galaxy. She is Shepards prothean expert, and she was right about most things (protheans didn't build the relays etc.) before we discovered the truth about the reapers. And what has the VI anything to do with that. It is stated more than once that the asari couldn't activate it. EDI even tells Liara that she would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it.

[dreman9999]

LinksOcarina wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@LinksOcarina I get what your saying, its basically my personally opinion on people who call themselves experts

But I'm not saying Liara isn't a Prothean Expert, but after you get Javik it makes her not a good one

That does not make her not a good one. It just show the issue of historians.

I know.

thats kinda the point....no?

I've been saying this for pages. Thank's for bluntly illustrating that point.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@3D, he's Dreman

You're seriously saying someoneis going to look up information they have no questions or intrest about just because?

She was comparing Glyph to a dictionary

Glyph is moreof an index , the sb datebase is the dictionary and even then you still have to the curiousityand interset to look up that info. If Liara's intrest is about finding a way to stop the reapers , why on earth would she find intrast in anything the turians did to the krogan in sercet.

Use some cause and effectus understanding.

What would be the cause of  Liara knowing about any of the info you expect Liara to know?

Glyph is an interface in the way that an index is an interface.  I'm not going to even try to educate you here about this.  All Liara has to do is ask Glyph a question about something and he will access the database.  She would at least do this for every mission that pops up and her operatives would be out there (Feron would help) flagging important relevant new data that was collected.  If the need is to find TIM's base, she'd set them to work locating it and Glyph would notify her if and when it was found.  The second it was known there'd need to be a way to get the Krogan to help the Turians, Liara would ask if there's anything that could be a problem and even more specific things as they come up.  She'd be alerted to anything suspicious that was occurring as it came up.

It's like what we have now-we have the ability to have our rudimentary tools ping us if it's someone's birthday and it lets us know the kinds of things they like.  We are told when email arrives, when some appointment or task is scheduled.  We can get wake up calls and we can set up fake calls that help us leave situations we're uncomfortable in.  We can remotely program TIVO and even control our home lights, or unlock our homes remotely.  And these are rudimentary. 

Liara would be actively looking and setting Glyph to look for anomalies, exploits, and anything that can help or hinder the goal-getting everyone to work together and getting assets for the crucible.

[DirtySHISN0]

Liara's priority system


Request for information
                  ↓


1) Is shepard alive? 
Yes → Stalk, forget other tasks.
No → Ask for specifics

2) Is shadowbroker?
Yes → stalk shepard, forget other tasks.
No → ask nyxeris

3) Is nxyeris alive?
Yes → ask shepard for help with the information
No → ask shepard for help with the information 

4) Information recieved?
Yes → go back to stalking shepard
No → find a way to link this to shepard to allow for better observation.

[3DandBeyond]

Barquiel wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


You're right, she is wrong about prothean culture. But she discovered the extinction cycle all on her own (and gets laughed at). That alone is astounding. She also knows that the protheans didn't build the citadel and the relays. Liara was obviously closer to the truth than other prothean experts in our cycle.

Except she didn't.  In the codex there are entries about other civilizations that were wiped out and indications of horrific events that happened (cycles of extinction).  That's the problem with the Asari, that they often don't want to know what they know.  Remember, they had the VI hidden in the temple.  It's just as likely they knew about the cycles and were ignoring them.  They hid the VI to learn from it in order to know more than the other races, it seems. 

People regarded Liara as little more than a conspiracy theorist because of her theories about the protheans and the cycle of extinction. She isn't THE prothean expert in the galaxy. She is Shepards prothean expert, and she was right about most things (protheans didn't build the relays etc.) before we discovered the truth about the reapers. And what has the VI anything to do with that. It is stated more than once that the asari couldn't activate it. EDI even tells Liara that she would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it.

The problem is that in ME3 she becomes THE expert.  The datapads on Mars indicate that's what is thought of her.  It's a moot point, but it's a sticking point in that she does assert some things as fact, but many of the things she asserts are not true.

And it's my understanding that she felt the Protheans built the relays-she even says it was great that they also saw the art of the relays when she's on the Citadel and sees the relays there.  She says the relays were the Protheans greatest achievement.  She also comments about their great creation, the citadel.

The VI was hidden away because the Asari wanted its information.  During that mission, so much of what they thought was true was not true at all.  I know that a big part of this was based upon what the Asari in general believed, but Liara after her studies left Thessia, preferring to work all alone and gather her own information, which is often just as wrong.  The problem is she idolizes the Protheans so she can't see them clearly.  That makes her think that anything found near Prothean stuff is also Prothean.  But archaologists go through this problem and they have to separate things out that don't fit.  Not having enough information to go on is no excuse for making claims that are erroneous.  And I like Liara-I just don't like many of the things written for her.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@3D, he's Dreman

You're seriously saying someoneis going to look up information they have no questions or intrest about just because?

She was comparing Glyph to a dictionary

Glyph is moreof an index , the sb datebase is the dictionary and even then you still have to the curiousityand interset to look up that info. If Liara's intrest is about finding a way to stop the reapers , why on earth would she find intrast in anything the turians did to the krogan in sercet.

Use some cause and effectus understanding.

What would be the cause of  Liara knowing about any of the info you expect Liara to know?

Glyph is an interface in the way that an index is an interface.  I'm not going to even try to educate you here about this.  All Liara has to do is ask Glyph a question about something and he will access the database.  She would at least do this for every mission that pops up and her operatives would be out there (Feron would help) flagging important relevant new data that was collected.  If the need is to find TIM's base, she'd set them to work locating it and Glyph would notify her if and when it was found.  The second it was known there'd need to be a way to get the Krogan to help the Turians, Liara would ask if there's anything that could be a problem and even more specific things as they come up.  She'd be alerted to anything suspicious that was occurring as it came up.

It's like what we have now-we have the ability to have our rudimentary tools ping us if it's someone's birthday and it lets us know the kinds of things they like.  We are told when email arrives, when some appointment or task is scheduled.  We can get wake up calls and we can set up fake calls that help us leave situations we're uncomfortable in.  We can remotely program TIVO and even control our home lights, or unlock our homes remotely.  And these are rudimentary. 

Liara would be actively looking and setting Glyph to look for anomalies, exploits, and anything that can help or hinder the goal-getting everyone to work together and getting assets for the crucible.

How are you not getting the fact here that the issue here is about cause and effect. What makes her want to look up the info you expect her to know?

It does not matter what tools you have or resourced, it's all based on the intrest of how you want to apply them.

If liara's intrest is into findign a way to stop the reapers, what would spark her intrest in what the turians did the the krogan inthe past, and what the salrian's did with the krogan females from Malon's experiment. 

Added, with Cerberus and TIM, how would she find them if all the sb leaks are found and pluged from ME2 and TIM is forcing everyone under him to be loyal with indoctriantion and no info leaks are ever given out about what he is doing?

The issue here is point of focus.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well apparently Cerberus hit her ship just after Hackett had Shepard thrown in lock up for helping him, and she had nowhere to go so she came to Earth and hit all the Alliance red tape about she couldn't visit Shepard, and her equipment was going to be installed on the Normandy, and Glyph was going to be running the show while she was on Mars and Super Mac didn't figure out what she was doing. And Feron was running part of the show in another location. So....

That's what happened. And Super Mac forgot how much a Prothean expert knows about protheans with a PhD in Prothean Studies from Serrice University because all Asari do is shake their asses in sleazy bars for Aliens.

win

Absolutely.  The inane messages you read on Liara's terminal show her to be mainly some kind of wide-eyed blue Valley Girl-still.  She supposedly grew up a lot between ME1 and 3 and became pretty proficient at a lot of things, but then she has no information on Sur'kesh (which Wrex chastises her for), has no idea where TIM is (no one even seems to look for him where he always seems to be), has no idea about really anything.  One stupid thing is the Barla Von mission.  Liara sends you to Barla Von who says there are people the Shadow Broker says can help-why the F didn't Liara just tell you about it?  Oh, then there'd be no reason to talk to Barla Von.

It's something I didn't realize other people didn't know-BW did turn Liara into a platform for showing off female appendages.  It's obvious if you play Mars with one character with Liara as an LI and another where she is not the LI.  If Liara is the LI, it's really obvious.  Shepard does not look at Liara's face.  Shepard's eyes are fixated on Liara's bazooms.  I fully expected Shepard to grab hold of one of them.  Blue behinds are one thing, Mars displays two things.

^^^ This is another thing. BW does this Madonna-wh*** thing with the Asari as well. Liara all sweet and innocent, especially in ME1. Then there's the consort, Aria, Morinth, and all those strippers.

Quite frankly they should do one of two things: give the series a complete reboot and rewrite the Asari culture as a full culture not written by men, but let some of us matriarchs write the culture for the next series and just forget the first trilogy ever existed..... the war and reapers exist as a footnote in the codex, as do all of the characters.

However, then it goes to art concept design and to writing and gets all watered down to hub worlds where... earth guys visit space ports, bars with pole dancers, etc.

It will never change. You can completely change the universe and it will never change because the target market is the late teen, early 20s male. That's the fact. And that is my morning rant. I kept it short because I'm going to be on the phone with tech support for the next three hours.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


You're right, she is wrong about prothean culture. But she discovered the extinction cycle all on her own (and gets laughed at). That alone is astounding. She also knows that the protheans didn't build the citadel and the relays. Liara was obviously closer to the truth than other prothean experts in our cycle.

Except she didn't.  In the codex there are entries about other civilizations that were wiped out and indications of horrific events that happened (cycles of extinction).  That's the problem with the Asari, that they often don't want to know what they know.  Remember, they had the VI hidden in the temple.  It's just as likely they knew about the cycles and were ignoring them.  They hid the VI to learn from it in order to know more than the other races, it seems. 

People regarded Liara as little more than a conspiracy theorist because of her theories about the protheans and the cycle of extinction. She isn't THE prothean expert in the galaxy. She is Shepards prothean expert, and she was right about most things (protheans didn't build the relays etc.) before we discovered the truth about the reapers. And what has the VI anything to do with that. It is stated more than once that the asari couldn't activate it. EDI even tells Liara that she would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it.

The problem is that in ME3 she becomes THE expert.  The datapads on Mars indicate that's what is thought of her.  It's a moot point, but it's a sticking point in that she does assert some things as fact, but many of the things she asserts are not true.

And it's my understanding that she felt the Protheans built the relays-she even says it was great that they also saw the art of the relays when she's on the Citadel and sees the relays there.  She says the relays were the Protheans greatest achievement.  She also comments about their great creation, the citadel.

1. You still miss the fact here that everything that happen with Liara and the protheans happens with all historians no matter the experties.

2.That does not counter that out of all the experts she is the closes one tothe correct awnser.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. You still miss thefact here that everything that happen with Liara and the protheans happens with all historians no matterthe experties.

2.That does not counter that out of all the experts she is the closes one tothe correct awnser.

Close and exactly opposite all at the same time.  Her heroes, the Protheans didn't create stuff, the Reapers did.  Yes, that's really close to the correct answer.

Yes, historians get things wrong and guess what, they are often disgraced for stating something is fact when it is conjecture.  There's so little left of the Protheans that no one should be stating categorically that any item is Prothean. 

Actually, TIM is far more of an expert than she is-and again, it's the problem with how she's written.  TIM doesn't look at the crucible as a weapon, but Liara says it is one.  Of course, he has some outside help since he's indoctrinated.

I don't miss the fact of anything.  Just because there are other bad Prothean experts and she gets somewhat closer to the truth in some ways, does not make her a good expert or even an expert.  She studies them, but learns little that is true about them.

Again, she thinks the Protheans were benevolent-they weren't.  She thinks they united people-sure, if subjugation and enslaving others can be called uniting.  She thinks they were super smart and invented the relays and the citadel, but they didn't.  Her faith in them is smashed when she meets Javik.  And it's because she's still more like a child about them than an expert.  That's ok, it's kind of endearing to see someone realize their gods are flawed organics and to see how that's dealt with.  But, she's the one they rely on for all things having to do with the Protheans when even she has been so wrong.

I'm done with this-another dreman show thread.  There's no discussing anything with you anyway because the discussion just goes in circles.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


You're right, she is wrong about prothean culture. But she discovered the extinction cycle all on her own (and gets laughed at). That alone is astounding. She also knows that the protheans didn't build the citadel and the relays. Liara was obviously closer to the truth than other prothean experts in our cycle.

Except she didn't.  In the codex there are entries about other civilizations that were wiped out and indications of horrific events that happened (cycles of extinction).  That's the problem with the Asari, that they often don't want to know what they know.  Remember, they had the VI hidden in the temple.  It's just as likely they knew about the cycles and were ignoring them.  They hid the VI to learn from it in order to know more than the other races, it seems. 

People regarded Liara as little more than a conspiracy theorist because of her theories about the protheans and the cycle of extinction. She isn't THE prothean expert in the galaxy. She is Shepards prothean expert, and she was right about most things (protheans didn't build the relays etc.) before we discovered the truth about the reapers. And what has the VI anything to do with that. It is stated more than once that the asari couldn't activate it. EDI even tells Liara that she would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend it.

The problem is that in ME3 she becomes THE expert.  The datapads on Mars indicate that's what is thought of her.  It's a moot point, but it's a sticking point in that she does assert some things as fact, but many of the things she asserts are not true.

And it's my understanding that she felt the Protheans built the relays-she even says it was great that they also saw the art of the relays when she's on the Citadel and sees the relays there.  She says the relays were the Protheans greatest achievement.  She also comments about their great creation, the citadel.

1. You still miss the fact here that everything that happen with Liara and the protheans happens with all historians no matter the experties.

2.That does not counter that out of all the experts she is the closes one tothe correct awnser.

And it turns out in ME3 that the writers completely forgot about what we learned about in ME1 for the most part, in the effort to make ME3 "a great place to start." They sacrificed story integrity for $$$.

[Barquiel]

3DandBeyond wrote...

And it's my understanding that she felt the Protheans built the relays-she even says it was great that they also saw the art of the relays when she's on the Citadel and sees the relays there.  She says the relays were the Protheans greatest achievement.  She also comments about their great creation, the citadel.

I watched the scene again. She only claims that the citadel and the relays are based on the technology of those who came before them. I stand corrected, then.

Modifié par Barquiel, 17 décembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Barquiel wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

And it's my understanding that she felt the Protheans built the relays-she even says it was great that they also saw the art of the relays when she's on the Citadel and sees the relays there.  She says the relays were the Protheans greatest achievement.  She also comments about their great creation, the citadel.

I watched the scene again. She only claims that the citadel and the relays are based on the technology of those who came before them. I stand corrected, then.

And in ME we learned they were built by the reapers. Wow. What a difference! Super Mac strikes again. ME3 is a great place to start!