80 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ugh, I always avoid Dagna because I don't want the chantry doing an exalted march on Orzammar.  Whenever you mess with their beliefs, it ends up badly.  I felt so guilty about all I did my first play through.

Isn't that caused by helping brother Burkel?

It's caused by both, actually.  If you don't help Burkel and help Dagna, you still get an exalted march.

Edit: If you don't help Burkel and Dagna writes her book, mages come to Orzammar outside of the Chantry's control, with access to lyrium also not controlled by the Chantry.  And the Chantry can't have that!

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 janvier 2010 - 01:25 .

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: If you don't help Burkel and Dagna writes her book, mages come to Orzammar outside of the Chantry's control, with access to lyrium also not controlled by the Chantry.  And the Chantry can't have that!

I now hate the chantry. I shall endure to topple it in the name of Dagna.

[eschilde]

@ejoslin Uh, Dagna is not what causes an exalted march contemplation, it's completing Brother Burkel's quest that does that.

edit: @ejoslin really? I've only helped Dagna and not Brother Burkel and only gotten the "Dagna writes a paper" in the epilogue, nothing about exalted march. Could be an epilogue bug, I suppose.

As an aside, if an exalted march isn't sanctioned by the state (and I imagine at least Alistair would not approve, and I somewhat doubt Anora would be all for it, either) how would the Chantry go about deciding to make war? It's not like the dwarves are above ground, the humans don't seem all that excited at the prospect of living in tunnels all the time, so the state doesn't gain anything from it, unlike marching on the Dalish. I suppose it could be the Orlesian Chantry.. but that doesn't really answer where they would get their troops and stuff from. Surely they're not just going to recruit their local farming chantry-goers?

Modifié par eschilde, 07 janvier 2010 - 01:37 .

[DPSSOC]

eschilde wrote...
I suppose it could be the Orlesian Chantry.. but that doesn't really answer where they would get their troops and stuff from. Surely they're not just going to recruit their local farming chantry-goers?

Have you forgotten the Templars?  The Templars aren't just Mage-hunters they're the Chantry's private army.  This is one thing that never made sense to me; why in the name of all things rational insane would any ruler allow the Chantry to maintain a standing army.

[eschilde]

DPSSOC wrote...

eschilde wrote...
I suppose it could be the Orlesian Chantry.. but that doesn't really answer where they would get their troops and stuff from. Surely they're not just going to recruit their local farming chantry-goers?

Have you forgotten the Templars?  The Templars aren't just Mage-hunters they're the Chantry's private army.  This is one thing that never made sense to me; why in the name of all things rational insane would any ruler allow the Chantry to maintain a standing army.

Oh, lol, yeah, I did forget them. I haven't finished my morning coffee yet. Whoops. Then again, considering what happens in the Tower, I wonder if templars are really as good an army as they might think. Plus, Orzammar and the dwarves is where a great portion of the Chantry's lyrium supply comes from, and if they decide to ruin relations with the dwarves it might not be so good for templar maintenance. 

[ejoslin]

eschilde, since I always make Bhelen king, if you made Harrowmont king it's possible that he doesn't allow mages in (I have no clue).

[Kohaku]

DPSSOC wrote...

eschilde wrote...
I suppose it could be the Orlesian Chantry.. but that doesn't really answer where they would get their troops and stuff from. Surely they're not just going to recruit their local farming chantry-goers?

Have you forgotten the Templars?  The Templars aren't just Mage-hunters they're the Chantry's private army.  This is one thing that never made sense to me; why in the name of all things rational insane would any ruler allow the Chantry to maintain a standing army.

Very true. We know the Chantry can do no wrong but has no one ever called them up on it? It's bizzare. I'm hoping that in any future content (DLC or Expansions) we can get to the bottom of the Chantry situation.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Isn't going into a melee expecting to be cut evil as well in that case? Merely using your own blood does not make anything evil.

Yes, but the very core of blood magic (high-level blood magic) is drainign the life of others to fuel your spells and controling their mind. Both are rahter...questioanble.
But worse of all, both are a very slippery slope.

[eschilde]

@ejoslin I also made Bhelen king last playthrough. Bhelen, Dagna, no Burkel, and I didn't get an exalted march epilogue. As far as I know the exalted march is directly tied to Burkel's opening of the chantry; if he never starts one the Chantry has no reason to call for a march?

[Herr Uhl]

DPSSOC wrote...
Have you forgotten the Templars?  The Templars aren't just Mage-hunters they're the Chantry's private army.  This is one thing that never made sense to me; why in the name of all things rational insane would any ruler allow the Chantry to maintain a standing army.

It reminds me of the old papacy, it works as a stabilizing element between the countries. Faith before country so to speak.

And it needs an army to be able to keep magi in check.

[DPSSOC]

eschilde wrote...

Oh, lol, yeah, I did forget them. I haven't finished my morning coffee yet. Whoops. Then again, considering what happens in the Tower, I wonder if templars are really as good an army as they might think.

 
The Templars are most likely trained and experienced in fighting individual mages or small groups where they hold obvious numeric superiority.  The appearance of numerous abominations from inside the tower caught them off guard.  Against Orzammar they'd be much better prepared and luckily Dwarves have no mages.

[ejoslin]

eschilde wrote...

@ejoslin I also made Bhelen king last playthrough. Bhelen, Dagna, no Burkel, and I didn't get an exalted march epilogue. As far as I know the exalted march is directly tied to Burkel's opening of the chantry; if he never starts one the Chantry has no reason to call for a march?

Hmmm, I'm not sure what else would be different.  I got an epilogue box when I did that saying that mages started coming to Orzammar outside of the chantry control and with access to lyrium so they did an exalted march.

[Herr Uhl]

DPSSOC wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Oh, lol, yeah, I did forget them. I haven't finished my morning coffee yet. Whoops. Then again, considering what happens in the Tower, I wonder if templars are really as good an army as they might think.

 
The Templars are most likely trained and experienced in fighting individual mages or small groups where they hold obvious numeric superiority.  The appearance of numerous abominations from inside the tower caught them off guard.  Against Orzammar they'd be much better prepared and luckily Dwarves have no mages.

So you are saying that an army of warriors specialized in fighting magi would be happy about not fighting magi?

Against a normal army, they would be utterly mediocre.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@ejoslin I also made Bhelen king last playthrough. Bhelen, Dagna, no Burkel, and I didn't get an exalted march epilogue. As far as I know the exalted march is directly tied to Burkel's opening of the chantry; if he never starts one the Chantry has no reason to call for a march?

Hmmm, I'm not sure what else would be different.  I got an epilogue box when I did that saying that mages started coming to Orzammar outside of the chantry control and with access to lyrium so they did an exalted march.

Were you a mage that gave the circle more leeway?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:18 .

[DPSSOC]

Herr Uhl wrote...

And it needs an army to be able to keep magi in check.

I'm ruling a nation I'll field my own Templars thank you very much.  All it takes is torturing the right people to work out how to make your own.

[Asylumer]

So you are saying that an army of warriors specialized in fighting magi would be happy about not fighting magi?

The Templars are primarily chosen for their faith and devotion, so I doubt they'd raise much of a fuss about the Chantry's decision. The Chantry could also raise a new army for the Exalted March much like the ones raised during the Crusades. Faith is a powerful and dangerous thing.

[Herr Uhl]

DPSSOC wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And it needs an army to be able to keep magi in check.

I'm ruling a nation I'll field my own Templars thank you very much.  All it takes is torturing the right people to work out how to make your own.

But would the people stand for that? I thought the average Thedian (<- Now a word) would be fairly devout.

The chantry has yet to be reformed to make the state decide over the church.

[Herr Uhl]

Asylumer wrote...

So you are saying that an army of warriors specialized in fighting magi would be happy about not fighting magi?

The Templars are primarily chosen for their faith and devotion, so I doubt they'd raise much of a fuss about the Chantry's decision. The Chantry could also raise a new army for the Exalted March much like the ones raised during the Crusades. Faith is a powerful and dangerous thing.

Yes, but I meant that they would not be any better because of the fact that the enemy had no magi. Rather to the contrary.

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@ejoslin I also made Bhelen king last playthrough. Bhelen, Dagna, no Burkel, and I didn't get an exalted march epilogue. As far as I know the exalted march is directly tied to Burkel's opening of the chantry; if he never starts one the Chantry has no reason to call for a march?

Hmmm, I'm not sure what else would be different.  I got an epilogue box when I did that saying that mages started coming to Orzammar outside of the chantry control and with access to lyrium so they did an exalted march.

Were you a mage that gave the circle more leeway?

Nope.

[eschilde]

DPSSOC wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And it needs an army to be able to keep magi in check.

I'm ruling a nation I'll field my own Templars thank you very much.  All it takes is torturing the right people to work out how to make your own.

Got a point there.. it does seem a bit strange that it's the chantry, and not the state, that keeps the magi in check. Although, the Right of Annulment is sending to Denerim for the permission to raze the tower, no? Is that to the grand cleric (or whatever the chantry head is called, i can't remember atm) or to Denerim for reinforcements? 

How many templars are there, anyway? Lily says the original force consisted of 277 templars, which is a relatively small force, I think? You'd think the majority of them would be in the tower already, if their main purpose is to prevent the kind of thing that happened..

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...
Got a point there.. it does seem a bit strange that it's the chantry, and not the state, that keeps the magi in check. Although, the Right of Annulment is sending to Denerim for the permission to raze the tower, no? Is that to the grand cleric (or whatever the chantry head is called, i can't remember atm) or to Denerim for reinforcements? 

Both, they also need to be stationed in the country to be in chantries as keepers (I think) and to hunt down apostates.

[eschilde]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Oh, lol, yeah, I did forget them. I haven't finished my morning coffee yet. Whoops. Then again, considering what happens in the Tower, I wonder if templars are really as good an army as they might think.

 
The Templars are most likely trained and experienced in fighting individual mages or small groups where they hold obvious numeric superiority.  The appearance of numerous abominations from inside the tower caught them off guard.  Against Orzammar they'd be much better prepared and luckily Dwarves have no mages.

So you are saying that an army of warriors specialized in fighting magi would be happy about not fighting magi?

Against a normal army, they would be utterly mediocre.

Yeah, Alistair even says that against a non-mage he's "just a guy in a metal suit." Their templar skills only affect magi, they are trained for the purpose of killing abominations. Part of their training is overseeing the Harrowing for that purpose, after all. There's nothing to suggest that templars get better martial training than they would anywhere else, which is what would be important against dwarves, especially ones who spend their whole lives fighting the darkspawn.

And, like I said, templars are dependent on lyrium, which comes from Orzammar. The Chantry would be likely making a big mistake by marching on them.

[Sialater]

I don't know, but I do know I killed quite a few in the Tower and in the Fade..... They were utterly useless against an Arcane Warrior.



In my epilogue, I got that they were only CONSIDERING an Exalted March on Orzammar to avenge Brother Burkel. Not that they were actually going to do it.

[eschilde]

Sialater wrote...

I don't know, but I do know I killed quite a few in the Tower and in the Fade..... They were utterly useless against an Arcane Warrior.

In my epilogue, I got that they were only CONSIDERING an Exalted March on Orzammar to avenge Brother Burkel. Not that they were actually going to do it.

Yes, but even contemplating it means that they must have considered means and reasons for doing so. In my opinion, even thinking about it just sounds stupid.

[Urazz]

eschilde wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Oh, lol, yeah, I did forget them. I haven't finished my morning coffee yet. Whoops. Then again, considering what happens in the Tower, I wonder if templars are really as good an army as they might think.

 
The Templars are most likely trained and experienced in fighting individual mages or small groups where they hold obvious numeric superiority.  The appearance of numerous abominations from inside the tower caught them off guard.  Against Orzammar they'd be much better prepared and luckily Dwarves have no mages.

So you are saying that an army of warriors specialized in fighting magi would be happy about not fighting magi?

Against a normal army, they would be utterly mediocre.

Yeah, Alistair even says that against a non-mage he's "just a guy in a metal suit." Their templar skills only affect magi, they are trained for the purpose of killing abominations. Part of their training is overseeing the Harrowing for that purpose, after all. There's nothing to suggest that templars get better martial training than they would anywhere else, which is what would be important against dwarves, especially ones who spend their whole lives fighting the darkspawn.

And, like I said, templars are dependent on lyrium, which comes from Orzammar. The Chantry would be likely making a big mistake by marching on them.

Actually, if I recall Alistar said lyrium just seems to make Templar abilities more potent and even that may be questionable, hence why Alistar can use his templar skills still and you can be trained as a templar and not become addicted to lyrium.