80 réponses à ce sujet

[Asylumer]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Yes, but I meant that they would not be any better because of the fact that the enemy had no magi. Rather to the contrary.

How would they be worse off than normal soldiers? Templars require a great deal of disclipine and thanks to faith have greater morale than normal soldiers. There's also no reason to suspect the dwarves would lack mages since we've seen them hire blood mage mercenaries in-game, and the reason the March would be called is for heretic mages out of the Chantry's control.

Besides, I suspect as an organization that imitates the Catholic Church during its heyday, the true power of the Chantry comes from rallying its worshippers, and not its private army for dealing with Magi. Their Templars may be few in number but when the call goes out, many of the pious will take up arms in the Maker's name. If the Divine pushed for the March enough I'm sure she could even get the Orlesian Empress to commit troops -- Orzammar may end up the same as the Dales.

Then the humans get to play with the Darkspawn

Modifié par Asylumer, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:51 .

[Herr Uhl]

Urazz wrote...

eschilde wrote...

And, like I said, templars are dependent on lyrium, which comes from Orzammar. The Chantry would be likely making a big mistake by marching on them.

Actually, if I recall Alistar said lyrium just seems to make Templar abilities more potent and even that may be questionable, hence why Alistar can use his templar skills still and you can be trained as a templar and not become addicted to lyrium.

Well, he also says that the main reason is to get the templars addicted, and thus easier to control. If they loose the lyrium to someone else, the templars may get out of line.

[eschilde]

Urazz wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Oh, lol, yeah, I did forget them. I haven't finished my morning coffee yet. Whoops. Then again, considering what happens in the Tower, I wonder if templars are really as good an army as they might think.

 
The Templars are most likely trained and experienced in fighting individual mages or small groups where they hold obvious numeric superiority.  The appearance of numerous abominations from inside the tower caught them off guard.  Against Orzammar they'd be much better prepared and luckily Dwarves have no mages.

So you are saying that an army of warriors specialized in fighting magi would be happy about not fighting magi?

Against a normal army, they would be utterly mediocre.

Yeah, Alistair even says that against a non-mage he's "just a guy in a metal suit." Their templar skills only affect magi, they are trained for the purpose of killing abominations. Part of their training is overseeing the Harrowing for that purpose, after all. There's nothing to suggest that templars get better martial training than they would anywhere else, which is what would be important against dwarves, especially ones who spend their whole lives fighting the darkspawn.

And, like I said, templars are dependent on lyrium, which comes from Orzammar. The Chantry would be likely making a big mistake by marching on them.

Actually, if I recall Alistar said lyrium just seems to make Templar abilities more potent and even that may be questionable, hence why Alistar can use his templar skills still and you can be trained as a templar and not become addicted to lyrium.

Yep, I meant that the Chantry uses lyrium to control templars, not that it was necessary to make them. Without lyrium they run the risk that the templars will try to overthrow Chantry leadership. Generally risks like that would cause them to think twice.

[DPSSOC]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And it needs an army to be able to keep magi in check.

I'm ruling a nation I'll field my own Templars thank you very much.  All it takes is torturing the right people to work out how to make your own.

But would the people stand for that? I thought the average Thedian (<- Now a word) would be fairly devout.

The chantry has yet to be reformed to make the state decide over the church.

And this is where the "I've got more guns than you" position becomes useful.

[Herr Uhl]

DPSSOC wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

But would the people stand for that? I thought the average Thedian (<- Now a word) would be fairly devout.

The chantry has yet to be reformed to make the state decide over the church.

And this is where the "I've got more guns than you" position becomes useful.

So you'd kill the people and have a tyranny instead? And it would be one of many countries, you'd need to be able to fend off the other countries once the chantry turns on you.

[DPSSOC]

Well idealy I wouldn't have to kill anyone. The suggestion that I have the ability and conviction to kill my own people will hopefully cause people to hold of on actually acting against me long enough to show that me in charge of Templars aren't all that bad. That's the ideal situation anyway I may well need to kill my own people and fend off invading nations but such are the things we do for the good of people who don't know better.

[Ygolnac]

I know that wynne wants to fight you if you have made the pact with the demon and specialized in blood magic BEFORE doing the broken circle storyline.

If you use persuasion only wynne will attack you, if you you admit plainly that you are a blood mage any templar and mage that is still alive joins the fight and after you get neither templar and mage army for the final battle, that is not a bug.



What happened to me: i killed uldred, sided with the templar and was a blood mage, but i got the spec fom a previous playthrough and i had yet to speak with the demon.

Wynne did not complain even if i used blood magic all the time in front of her all the time, and after killing uldred she just said: "we could have done more to save the circle" but still wanted to join my party.



But then, i went back to harrowing chamber and Uldred was still there alive and kicking, so i'm wondering if this is a bug or not.

[eschilde]

@ygolnac that sounds like a bug to me. There's no game mechanic where Wynne will attack you because she sees you using blood magic, as far as I know (haven't specced that way) but I have gotten the "We could have done more to save the circle," response from her for not openly siding with Cullen, but not using the Litany. Not using the Litany should mean you let Irving die, so Cullen should have walked you down, and you should get templars at the end instead of mages.



If you're fighting Uldred twice there's definitely something wrong.. did you get the cut scene again or was it just the fight?

[Kenshen]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Which reminds me... does this mean we can also kill Cullen and the Quartermaster?

In my last playthrough as a mage I freed the tower and that doesn't end well with Cullen.  It said that he grew more troubled each passing day until one day he just snaps and kills 3 mages before he is cut down.  So you can kill him but indirectly.

[IanPolaris]

That's odd. I've played an evil bloodmage twice now (bloodmage prior to the tower) once siding with the mages and once with the templars and Wynne doesn't bat an eyelash either time (at least with regard to blood magic). Of course, I did not do Redcliff either time (having unlocked BM via other games).



-Polaris

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

rayvioletta wrote...

the bad news, there's no option to tell Dagna that there's nobody at the Tower to deliver her request to
the worse news, despite the quest log acknowledging that neither mages nor templars will aid me, having now completed the other treaty sections Eamon still refuses to call the Landsmeet until I gather my allies

'twould seem the game is broken after all

C'mon Bioware, really?!?!

How bout this time you now got whilst fixing RtO you also fix some of the quests in the OC to?

[Elessara]

Also from what I've heard you CAN have Wynne spec into Blood Mage. Which just makes ZERO sense to me.

[Knal1991]

Creature 1 wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
I find it funny how they make a big fuss about blood magic but none of the spells surrounding death magic and other life draining spells.

That's because you have to make a pact with a demon in order to get blood magic.  All the rest of the horrible things you can do with magic come naturally. 

Making pacts with demons often leads to becoming an abomination, and blood magic allows mind control (which can be extended long-term as long as you don't mind burning through peasants at an amazing rate).  That's why it is feared and abhorred. 

the game does not recognise that you are a blood mage if you already have the spec unlocked  and played without making a pact, atleast wynne never said anything...that's why you can makeher blood mage too,  i do agree with the death magic and such...basically it's witch magic, I actually consider drain life blood magic...

[Knal1991]

eschilde wrote...

@ygolnac that sounds like a bug to me. There's no game mechanic where Wynne will attack you because she sees you using blood magic, as far as I know (haven't specced that way) but I have gotten the "We could have done more to save the circle," response from her for not openly siding with Cullen, but not using the Litany. Not using the Litany should mean you let Irving die, so Cullen should have walked you down, and you should get templars at the end instead of mages.

If you're fighting Uldred twice there's definitely something wrong.. did you get the cut scene again or was it just the fight?

there was also this bug (dunnoif theyhave fixed it) that when you enter the battle, walk up to Irving and press conversation,he will tell you he's thankfull for saving him and killing uldred...automatically the whole lvl get's reset and you have to do everything anew...

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Sooo making a pact with a demon is bad but re-animating a corpse or feeding off of the energy of the dead isn't?



Sheesh they got screwed mentality in the chantry.



Anyway this issue needs fixing!



If there is an option to have the templars and mages attack you and thus end up dead and if the quest acknowledges you can't get their support, then the overall quest should update and Eamon should allow you to go with just the elves/werewolves, dwarves and human army.



I ain't continuing my mage that I intend to do this with until this issue is fixed.

[Rendar666]

I honestly do not know where to get Blood Mage spec. Do you get it from Jowan? If someone could tell me how to get that Spec. I'd be happy. Very happy; Blood Mage is the only Spec. I do not have.

[eschilde]

@Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien



I would guess that reanimating a corpse and feeding off dead energy is a little different than making a pact with a demon. Allowing demons to get into the real world can cause a lot of problems, since they don't have normal values, esp. if they possess a mage. Reanimation is more akin to marionettes, vs. the kind of undead you see in Redcliffe, which are spirits possessing corpses.



(Granted, clearly the magi is being a bit irreverent if they're using human corpses for this purpose. It does seem to be more like blood magic than should be acceptable.)

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Rendar666 wrote...

I honestly do not know where to get Blood Mage spec. Do you get it from Jowan? If someone could tell me how to get that Spec. I'd be happy. Very happy; Blood Mage is the only Spec. I do not have.

You need to be a mage and during the redcliffe quest where you go into the fade to tackle the demon that has possessed Connor, one of the 'rewards' the demon can give you is learning blood magic

[DragonRageGT]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Rendar666 wrote...

I honestly do not know where to get Blood Mage spec. Do you get it from Jowan? If someone could tell me how to get that Spec. I'd be happy. Very happy; Blood Mage is the only Spec. I do not have.

You need to be a mage and during the redcliffe quest where you go into the fade to tackle the demon that has possessed Connor, one of the 'rewards' the demon can give you is learning blood magic

But, to my understanding, you can only go to the Fade and bargain with the Demon after you saved the mages... oh wait.. my bad... you can let the biatch mother sacrifice right? And then Wynne will attack you at the tower? And it is a gamestopper bug?

This sounds bad! Really!!!!

[Sunthas]

rayvioletta wrote...

so my mage went back to the tower, played nice and promised to kill Uldred and save the little mages so Wynne tagged along. we kicked arse, killed Uldred and then... of all the cheek, Wynne decides to take issue with how I spend my specialisation points. curiosity compels me to ignore the persuade options and instead point out that my use of blood magic saved their collective asses and that I'm a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable
right?
wrong. so I fight them all. mages, dead. templars, dead. this is interesting, certainly something different from my other playthroughs... except who's going to join my army now? the quest log insists that Uldred has not yet died, and dialogue seems to agree with that, so I go back up to the Harrowing Chamber and... lo and behold, he's alive! one dead Uldred later and... nothing's changed

Wow, I thought I read somewhere on here you could kill both mages and templars but I wasn't able to come up with the dialog. In my last playthrough I killed Wynne right away. Do I need to keep her in order to kill the templars? This sounds quite intriguing. 

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Yeah you need to keep her, do the whole promise of saving the mages, get back down to Greagoir (not sure if OP did it with saving the mages at top or not, would imagine if Irving there it be tougher as he is a boss too), OP used blood magic whilst wynne was in the group and apparently Wynne raised the query about blood magic, from what I assume you give her some lippy responses (don't use persuade) and voila everyone attacks you including wynne.



The OP was lead to believe that all was going as planned as the quest updated stating no mages/templars but after completing the other treaties and going to Eamon he seemed to think that they hadn't completed all the treaties!!! so it bugged out.



Why wasn't this tested before the game was released to make sure it worked? Or is it another 'Orzammar' situation in which journey ends here but the player isn't given that screen?



I hope someone from Bioware can clarify this, as there are some of us that would like to do this if it is possible.

[DragonRageGT]

I'm playing 2 mages in my 5 char at once run! I will try that with one of them. Just pls confirm. We must be BM before starting the Tower, right?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Rage, there ain't any point doing it yet if it is bugged.

Am tempted to have a go at it myself just to see if the OP got unlucky, but I really don't want to get to the stage where I've wasted however long it takes me to do it, especially as I also got Brescillian to finish and was going to do that last.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 10 janvier 2010 - 11:32 .

[magicfem]

i killed wynne and got templars to help me out

[DragonRageGT]

magicfem wrote...

i killed wynne and got templars to help me out

That's not what's being discussed here!

Well, I might let the Circle for last, Ulrich, and then if the sick fellow doesn't acknowledge my effort... either I reload for a short replay or let Ferelden be destroyed by the blight! =)