88 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Warning: TL;DR is right in the title. You have been warned.

===

How would you feel about an Asari who claims to be the daughter of Shepard?

===

Key word being 'claims,' but with ambiguity as to whether or not she actually is. Hold the pitchforks for a moment, non-Liara-mancers, because this is a semi-serious musing about a post-ME3 setting.

Without dwelling on 'what ending was canon' or 'I don't want any sequel at all', run with this bare-minimum presumption: the Reapers were stopped, galactic civilization is rebuilding, and the new plot takes a few hundred years after ME3's end. Long enough for Shepard and (most) companions to be long past, but well within an Asari lifetime. The new PC comes along, does his or her stuff, and ultimately comes across an Asari who's kickass-enough/powerful-enough/relevant-enough to get to know. Her hook?

She claims she's the daughter of Shepard. The Shepard, of course. How does she know? Well, she doesn't... but she believes what her mother/guardian told her before she/it/they passed away. Whether it's true or not, it's certainly a part of her identity... and it can certainly be plausible enough to make her a person of interest to groups/people interested in The Shepard, whether that means they are interested in her as a tool or just are interested in killing her.

---

The Claim of the Century

---

Now here's a point I want to step out a bit to remind people that plausibility can be as important as actuality, because in this character concept I think the plausibility of the character relationship, along with the ambiguity as to whether it's real or not, could sell it and make it interesting.

The first question, about possibility, is objectively easy to answer: yes, an Asari could be the child of Shepard and some Asari melding. The Asari lifespan would allow for a child to be alive well after Shepard's death, and no known gestation period means that there's no lore-established guideline for when a child would have to have been born (it could have been years after Shepard's death, after all, and thus outside the player's ME1-ME3 awareness). Even the fact that there was no player (or even Shepard) awareness of the child isn't actually a barrier: nothing in the lore or romance dialogues ever claims that Shepard of either gender were pure and innocent virgins before stepping on the Normandy.

The second question of plausibility is also allowing. There certainly were Asari who were interested in Shepard, and Liara's final 'gift' to Shepard in ME3 has had many fans wondering if there was more to be read from the joining than 'just friends.' But even without Liara we have the possible intercourse with the Consort, expressed interest by Shiala... and of course, the many strippers of Afterlife. No one ever said she had to be a love-baby, after all. And that's not even touching off-screen encounters of the Azure kind.

But the question of actuality, or whether she is (no matter the player's preferences) is the most serious... and could be the most interesting to play with on the grounds of ambiguity. After all, how could you ever prove it one way or another, hundreds of years later? Asari children share their genes with their mother: there's no known way to identify what species the 'father' is, let alone who it was. The possibility of an affair, even if Shepard was in a relationship, might be strenously denied by a fan but should be treated as credible by others.

The ambiguity of whether the Asari is Shepard's daughter or not could be the real driver of the character's development... and a hook that allows romance flags to carry-over in an interesting way. Imagine if the answer was never explicitly resolved... and if the implications as to whether she was Shepard's daughter or not varried with the romance-flags imported?

---

Schrodinger's Daughter

---

Here I want to address the real concern a lot of people would have: they wouldn't want the Asari to actually be the daughter of Shepard: because being so would imply Shepard had a relationship without their consent, either by being 'cheating' or some other theft of character. (Unless, of course, the player is in the minority who actually romanced an Asari.) Players generally don't want tabula rosa avatars to have any more past or established relationships than can be avoided.

This is understandable. Fine. Commendable, even!

Now here's how the ambiguity can help: we never actually have to establish whether she is or not Shepard's daughter. Her importance rests on the belief by herself and others that she is, not the fact. The reason people might believe she's a daughter of Shepard is because, above all else, it's plausible. But here's where carryover-import can factor in, just how plausible it is could shift with the historical record, ie the import flags.

Imagine that, as part of her character arc/quest, this Asari looks into The Shepard's past to try and find some evidence one way or the other of her relationship with the legend. Digging through historical records, stealing from intelligence agencies, even breaking into the Shadow Broker archives: this would be an excellent way to dredge up some of the romance flags from the trilogy, a look at how Shepard's (your Shepard's) personal life might have been seen by others. A rundown of the relationships you had... and how they concluded. Shepard having the Gift with Liara, if possible.

Naturally, and this is to sooth romancer concerns, if Shepard had a relationship with someone else the records found don't suppor the idea of an affair. 'Shepard had a comitted relationship with Miranda Lawson.' 'Shepard eventually went to Rannoch with Tali.' 'Shepard died monthes after Thane did, with no knowledge of taking another paramore after him.' Whatever is appropriate. The most important thing for the player is that Shepard is implied to have had a happy relationship their LI of choice... but the most important part of the data for the Asari is that it doesn't prove that she isn't Shepard's child from some other relationship. Call this the 'unlikely' insinuation.

If Shepard romanced Liara, however, the evidence appears supportive of the claim. If the records are Liara's own, it might even mention that she looks forward to a family with Shepard. If not and the Gift is not flagged, then Liara could write about it in an implicit way... and even if the Gift is not flagged, Liara could write about how she intends to present her 'Gift' to Shepard and hopes to have something to remember him by. At the end, however, even if it plays with the idea that Liara might be the mother, it doesn't explicitly confirm that Shepard is the 'father.' Call this the 'supportive' insinuation.

And if Shepard had no romance at all, the data can be ambiguous. Shepard went to Afterlife, where an Asari stripper making a bit of extra money wouldn't have even made it on the books, if Aria didn't offer one for free as a favor. Shepard had contact with the Consort, and possibly with Shiala (if alive). Other Asari Shepard had contact with... but no evidence to prove that Shepard did or did not have a child at some point in his/her life. Call this 'totally ambiguous.'


No matter the insinuation, whether unlikely or not, the ambiguity about the Asari's true father remains. This creates a circumstance of being both true and not true at the same time: the player can adopt whatever preference they prefer, and the game will ultimately neither confirm nor deny them allowing each player's personal preference to be the effective canon.

It isn't whether she's actually Shepard's daughter that matters, then... the real question could be 'will she act like it?'

---

Making the Choice

---

We've already established that both the Asari and some other parties suspect she might be the Scion of Shepard. We've also sketched a scenario in which the truth isn't actually revealed: insinuations aside, it remains unknown and ambiguous.

In a personal question for self-identity and conviction, this point of failure to find an answer makes a natural time for self-doubt... and a natural point for the PC to influence the character development of a companion. In this case, whether the Asari should continue to believe that they are in fact the Shepard's daughter, or whether they should give up on that long-held belief.

The actual P/R depiction of the choice is largely irrelevant. The actual impact is a chance to validate/fulfill the player's own (metagaming) preferences for what people 'should' believe about The Shepard.

Encouraging the Asari, and potentially those other people, to believe that she is the Daughter of Shepard is the opportunity for the player to have such a successor to Shepard. Whether as a validation of a Liara romance, an interesting twist of canon, or just a role-playing opportunity, she'll act like Shepard's daughter, whether she is or not, and you can be proud of it. She'll stand tall, stand proud, and live up to the name to the best of her ability.

On the other hand, (kindly) disabusing the Asari of the idea is the repudiation allowed to players who would prefer to head-canon that there Shepard only had one true love, or no children at all. The Asari, letting go of any claim of connection to Shepard, leaves The Shepard untarnished and untounched by anyone you personally would not want to have been by. No claim, and no further implication, of infidelity or affair or relationship need bother you, and the Asari herself is freed to pursue her own path and make her own name.

Both these outcomes are equally valid, and can equally apply regardless of whether she is, in fact, Shepard's daughter or not. And wouldn't that make it all the more interesting? The Asari who you know isn't, but who takes the name of Shepard and wears it proudly... or the forgotten child of Shepard, who turns her back on her birthright and forsakes her forgotten parent.

Wouldn't either of these be just as interesting to you?

[Ledgend1221]

"Silly asari, Shepard was a human."
"But asr...."
"HUMANITY FIRST ****!"

[ValintineL]

I wouldn't like this. I would prefer if the next Mass Effect is in the future Shepard is mentioned but not a driving aspect. Too many plot land mines and I would prefer it if we moved on to new things.

[Iakus]

 Ash would kill my Shep 

[Wulfram]

If she is Shepard's daughter with Liara, why would there be any ambiguity?

Seems silly all round, really. And the Liara raped Shepard idiocy doesn't need any reinforcement.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 décembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[sharkboy421]

No. Just no.  I am a dyed in the wool Liaramancer and I do not want to see this at all.  I guess the idea is vaguely interesting but the implications of it are just too unfortunate for my taste.

If the next ME game is a sequel I want nothing more than a few passing references to The Shepard.  Yes I am still bitter about ME3 and I'd prefer if Bioware just let Shepard rest.  I love her to death but unless there is some darastic change, please just let her rest as the hero she is.

[xtorma]

If it was a fun game, I'd play it.

Just like i did this game. I wouldn't spend a whole bunch of time wondering about stuff. It would also have to have multi-player.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

 Ash would kill my Shep 

Why would Ash be upset over what you did before you're in a relation ship and after you broke up?

[dreman9999]

As a concept in ME4, I like it.
As story arc, no,don't go that far.

Just make her a side npc.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Ash would kill my Shep 

Why would Ash be upset over what you did before you're in a relation ship and after you broke up?

Was trying to be funny.  Was thinking of Liara's "gift"

"It was her way of saying goodbye!  Wait, that came out wrong...!"

[dgcatanisiri]

Yeah, I don't particularly think it's a good idea to present it as a serious possibility. Those of us who don't romance Liara would be up in arms all over again (remember the violent reactions pre-EC to the fact that Liara was the last flashback image unless you romanced Ashley/Kaidan? This would outdo that) at the thought of it being possible, and frankly, we don't need to fuel the 'Liara raped Shepard' fire any further than it already is. And, unless we go like two thousand years into the future, given asari lifespans, there's not likely to be any ambiguity to the situation - she is or she isn't.

If, and that's a mighty big 'if', there were to be an asari claiming to be Shepard's daughter, the best way to handle it would be to have her saying it amongst other blatantly false claims (something like 'the Council was always firmly behind Shepard,' 'Shepard never once worked with Cerberus,' etc.), where it can be dismissed with the rest of the things that she's saying. But really, why even open up the possibility? It just opens a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened.

[dreman9999]

Wulfram wrote...

If she is Shepard's daughter with Liara, why would there be any ambiguity?

Seems silly all round, really. And the Liara raped Shepard idiocy doesn't need any reinforcement.

1. It's not rape. Rape is something sexual.
This would be call someone stealing your sperm to make a baby a rapest.

2.It would have ambiguity because the player can turn down the gift.

[Alex_Dur4and]

If it's a good story, I say; Ship it!!

[dreman9999]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Yeah, I don't particularly think it's a good idea to present it as a serious possibility. Those of us who don't romance Liara would be up in arms all over again (remember the violent reactions pre-EC to the fact that Liara was the last flashback image unless you romanced Ashley/Kaidan? This would outdo that) at the thought of it being possible, and frankly, we don't need to fuel the 'Liara raped Shepard' fire any further than it already is. And, unless we go like two thousand years into the future, given asari lifespans, there's not likely to be any ambiguity to the situation - she is or she isn't.

If, and that's a mighty big 'if', there were to be an asari claiming to be Shepard's daughter, the best way to handle it would be to have her saying it amongst other blatantly false claims (something like 'the Council was always firmly behind Shepard,' 'Shepard never once worked with Cerberus,' etc.), where it can be dismissed with the rest of the things that she's saying. But really, why even open up the possibility? It just opens a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened.

The op stated that it not just something inclucive to Liara's gift. The mother can be any asari.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

If she is Shepard's daughter with Liara, why would there be any ambiguity?

Who can prove who the father is, even if she is Liara's daughter?

[Dean_the_Young]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Ash would kill my Shep 

Why would Ash be upset over what you did before you're in a relation ship and after you broke up?

Moreover, why would Ash kill Shepard over an Asari centuries later claiming without proof?

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Ash would kill my Shep 

Why would Ash be upset over what you did before you're in a relation ship and after you broke up?

Was trying to be funny.  Was thinking of Liara's "gift"

"It was her way of saying goodbye!  Wait, that came out wrong...!"

I get that but....

"The second question of plausibility is also allowing. There certainly were Asari who were interested in Shepard, and Liara's final 'gift' to Shepard in ME3 has had many fans wondering if there was more to be read from the joining than 'just friends.' But even without Liara we have the possible intercourse with the Consort, expressed interest by Shiala... and of course, the many strippers of Afterlife. No one ever said she had to be a love-baby, after all. And that's not even touching off-screen encounters of the Azure kind."

...The op was not taking about it happen exclucively because of Liara's gift or Liara being the mother.

[Iakus]

 I know.  Like I said I was trying to be funny.

I guess I wasn't

[Dean_the_Young]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Yeah, I don't particularly think it's a good idea to present it as a serious possibility. Those of us who don't romance Liara would be up in arms all over again (remember the violent reactions pre-EC to the fact that Liara was the last flashback image unless you romanced Ashley/Kaidan? This would outdo that) at the thought of it being possible, and frankly, we don't need to fuel the 'Liara raped Shepard' fire any further than it already is.

Then don't focus on Liara: it doesn't have to be 'she's Liara's daughter' at all.

And, unless we go like two thousand years into the future, given asari lifespans, there's not likely to be any ambiguity to the situation - she is or she isn't.

Why, when we have parental ambiguity issues even today even with the (limited) availability of genetic testing?

Unlike us, the Asari don't even have that. You might be able to trace the mother... but the father has no genetic role.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 décembre 2012 - 09:03 .

[NoForgiveness]

i think in the romance with liara she shouldve asked you to give her a kid... but idk about the actual idea maybe if there was proof she was shepard's but then what happened to liara? shes 109 in me3 so it wouldn't be natural causes that killed her... and that would be sad

[crimzontearz]

You lost me at "ambiguity"

**** that

[AresKeith]

iakus wrote...

 I know.  Like I said I was trying to be funny.

I guess I wasn't

They (Dreman) can't handle a joke

[Wulfram]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Who can prove who the father is, even if she is Liara's daughter?

Which makes her paternity no more in doubt than 90%* of people on the planet?  Why would she question her mother's word, particularly since Liara's relationship with Shepard is likely to be in the historical record?  And she would likely have talked to various people who were friends of both Shepard and Liara.

*made up statistic

[jtav]

I think it could be an incredibly cool idea as long as the romance flags carry over as you describe. We have no real say in how history remembers us and I could see people desperately wanting to believe they had a connection to the Shepard.

[StrawHatMoose]

I would kick her in the face and then curb stomp the b*tch. I dumped Liara for Tali.