393 réponses à ce sujet

[George Costanza]

I firmly supported Refuse until the Extended Cut gave us the actual Refuse ending.

The Refuse ending is basically a "**** you" from Bioware. And while I thought the Extended Cut, by and large, was a massive improvement on what shipped, I really didn't like that. It's just a "Yeah, you're going to play ball with our stupid space boy and his idiotic options or everyone you care about dies".

So a Refuse in which we can actually achieve something would be my preferred ending. I hate how my Shepard so readily goes along with The Catalyst and does what he says. So out of character.

Modifié par George Costanza, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:21 .

[Ieldra]

Jade8aby88 wrote...
So refuse haters, please recognize that if someone says they support refuse, the chances are they are supporting the choice to fight for everybody, at least moreso than they are supporting it's result.

I'm trying to get into your mindset, but I'm having serious trouble with it. Let me ask you a question: what does everyone's freedom matter if everyone's dead?

I don't know what you believe a reasonable outcome of Refuse is before you see the epilogue, but even if you don't believe this cycle will be wiped out at the time when you make the decision, it's bound to be worse than Destroy's outcome, AND the Reapers are still around. I'm sorry but I can't see this as justifiable in any way.

Also, if I'm interpreting your OP correctly, you're making this choice based on your belief that it should have a better outcome rather than accepting the situation as it is. The world isn't as you believe it should be, doing "the right things" doesn't just not always have the good outcome, but sometimes it results in outright disaster, but let's ignore that and act as if things were different? May I remind you that this refusal to accept a reality that's in front of your eyes will get everyone killed?

It's your game and your choice, but please consider: if we all placed our principles above the lives of a million people, what would the world look like?

[Jadebaby]

shepard1038 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well we may not have won the war, but we gave them hell. The retreated into dark space before they were finished with their harvest because there's Asari in the "Stargazer" scene. This says there was enough to propagate a gene pool. This tells me we fought them to a stalemate where both sides were beaten. We fought with honor. Perhaps the war didn't last a year. Perhaps it lasted a century. Perhaps it lasted long enough for cryocells to be built for enough people to carry on in archives for the next cycle like the Protheans planned for themselves.

Liara's Archives would have contained the complete knowledge of the Asari and Protheans, and everything she learned in her travels with Shepard, and what she learned during the war.

One has to ask oneself this question: what is so special about our cycle that wouldn't be filled by the next?

Once you answer that, and you see the refuse stargazer scene, you see that refuse isn't a bad ending at all.

If the Prothean cycle took centuries and they were taken completely by surprise and overwhelmed easily because their cycle wasn't as diverse as ours. Then I could see our cycle taking 10x longer than theirs.

Yes, but they were more advanced and had conquered 1% of the galaxy. We aren't as spread out as they are.Liara even says that. We just don't have the firepower to challenge the reapers.

From Perseus Viel to Silean Nebula, and from Artemis Tau cluster to Ismar Frontier. I'd say we're pretty spread out.

[dorktainian]

why choose from the choices the reapers give us?

[Jadebaby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...
So refuse haters, please recognize that if someone says they support refuse, the chances are they are supporting the choice to fight for everybody, at least moreso than they are supporting it's result.

I'm trying to get into your mindset, but I'm having serious trouble with it. Let me ask you a question: what does everyone's freedom matter if everyone's dead?

I don't know what you believe a reasonable outcome of Refuse is before you see the epilogue, but even if you don't believe this cycle will be wiped out at the time when you make the decision, it's bound to be worse than Destroy's outcome, AND the Reapers are still around. I'm sorry but I can't see this as justifiable in any way.

Also, if I'm interpreting your OP correctly, you're making this choice based on your belief that it should have a better outcome rather than accepting the situation as it is. The world isn't as you believe it should be, doing "the right things" doesn't just not always have the good outcome, but sometimes it results in outright disaster, but let's ignore that and act as if things were different? May I remind you that this refusal to accept a reality that's in front of your eyes will get everyone killed?

It's your game and your choice, but please consider: if we all placed our principles above the lives of a million people, what would the world look like?

Don't make assumptions about my beliefs of this world. Because I'm not talking about this world.

As nicely as I could put that.

I can't understand anyone's mind set who chooses Synthesis. Different horses for different courses. Fact is, Refuse was the only option that best suited my Shepard.

Don't pretend you're trying to do me any favours.

[Jadebaby]

dorktainian wrote...

why choose from the choices the reapers give us?

Because not everyone thinks the same.

[TheBlackBaron]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

When the fact is, there is a gigantic size gap between a conventional victory, in it's proper terms, and the RGB endings. It is possible and I believe BioWare have the capability to write it that way.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts. The facts, unfortunately, do not support this supposition of yours. Believing and wishing that it had or could have a better outcome does not make it so, and "because it's the morally right thing" is not a reason for Refuse to have a different outcome. 

Yes, the Reapers are talked up, but if you pay just as much attention, they are also talked down. And by more knowledgable NPC's about the situation; Vigil > Hackett.

Do you mean the part where Vigil talks about how the Protheans were systemically annihilated over the course of a long war? How he warns that Saren and Sovereign have to be stopped now, because if the Citadel Relay opens and the entire Reaper force is brought to bear it's all over? Do you remember the garbled Prothean recording on Ilos talking about last acts of desperation and ends with the refrain "cannot be stopped ... cannot be stopped"? 

More to the point, did you see the parts in ME3 where it's reiterated that by Javik's time, the situation had gotten so bad that the Protheans are desperately trying to build the Crucible, and making continuity-of-species plans in case they don't finish it in time because they know they're conventionally doomed?

Sorry. But both the characters you mentioned are pretty clear on this matter. And so are many others. I can think of one character that talks down the threat, and that's the Turian councilor. You are simply wrong on this matter. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 18 décembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[UrgentArchengel]

Sometimes you've got to make a hard choice. One that shatters your moral code because it has to be done. It's like this. Your given three choices, and you have to choose at gunpoint. You refuse to chose, you'll die. Refuse leads to the death of our cycle. As I said, this is a tough moral choice that is at gunpoint, and every advanced form of life in the galaxy is the target. So you've got to shove your morallity just this once, and make a tough choice. Every choice is going to have a consequence, you can't just ignore it, that's just straight up denial. Your given a choice, you get the gist of what it will immediately do...choose or fail.

Modifié par UrgentArchengel, 18 décembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[Loreshield]

So, to summarize: You like what Shepard does and how s/he does it more in Refuse than in any other ending, but you like what actually happens after that the least?

...How is this new and has not been said by almost all of us on here for the entire time since the EC was out?

[dorktainian]

jade.

can i throw a suggestion into the pot for you?

The three choices all go to the same point in the decision chamber. The weapon fires. The colour doesnt matter. No matter which choice the weapon always fires. What do we have to gain from this? The crapalist tells us we've changed the variables. What were the variables before? I dont buy it. To me it stinks of a trap. All 3 fire the weapon. The weapon that disables the relays.... It doesnt do anything else. think about it. dont look at the colours....just the relays. Without the relays we're doomed. Easy pickings for the reapers.    


do not look at the colours.  they are a lie.  the only choice is to choose your own choice.  refuse.  Refuse their doctrine.


We fight or we die.

Modifié par dorktainian, 18 décembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[TheProtheans]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Sorry, you mustn't have read my other posts, tuned out at "conventional"

No, I have. All I see is the same tired denials insisting that it requires metagaming to know that the Crucible is required.

That is, metagaming or basic reading and listening comprehension. 

In fact, quite the opposite is true, since only by banking on knowing that this is a game and that certain things tend to happen to protagonists of fiction can one argue that maybe Refusal won't lead to abject defeat. In other words, the very essence of metagaming. 

Unfortunately for all Refusers hoping that achieveing a moral victory leads to achieveing an actual victory (and to be fair, given how Bioware treats Paragon options that is not an illogical metagaming assumption) Bioware slams that door shut quite clearly. 

Not so, the door is slowly moving back.
Anything could sneak through in the process of it moving back.

That Catalyst saying the cycle continued while we were still alive implies nothing other than the war continued, this cycle is capable of great stuff and it would  not surprise me if the Reapers were defeated or trapped with low resoucres.
The beacon being showing and race talking about the beacon implies nothing other than they found the beacon.
You notice how they act like there is no explorative space travel? The grandpa talks as if it will come in the future.

I reckon they're still in their own system or region, mass relays and bases are not in every system.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 18 décembre 2012 - 10:49 .

[Jadebaby]

Loreshield wrote...

So, to summarize: You like what Shepard does and how s/he does it more in Refuse than in any other ending, but you like what actually happens after that the least?

...How is this new and has not been said by almost all of us on here for the entire time since the EC was out?

It's not, but it doesn't stop douche's from trying to step on you for it.

I actually feel for the Control and Synthesis crowd now... Totally.


@ Dorktanian. Thanks, and yes, you're right.. I haven't slept in like 36 hours, so I think if I'm going to continue enganging in this thread. It's best I rest before continuing.

Good day

[TheProtheans]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

I actually feel for the Control and Synthesis crowd now... Totally.

This is merely an experiment for me, people who get disliked dislike on others with views they don't like.
Why do you feel sorry for the people hating on Refusers having a chance.

Seival most notably as been one who was saying what happened in refuse and dismissing possiblities for months.

[Dysjong]

Im not hating on "the refusers". Im just saying that i wouldnt do it.

[Loreshield]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Loreshield wrote...

So, to summarize: You like what Shepard does and how s/he does it more in Refuse than in any other ending, but you like what actually happens after that the least?

...How is this new and has not been said by almost all of us on here for the entire time since the EC was out?

It's not, but it doesn't stop douche's from trying to step on you for it.

I actually feel for the Control and Synthesis crowd now... Totally.


@ Dorktanian. Thanks, and yes, you're right.. I haven't slept in like 36 hours, so I think if I'm going to continue enganging in this thread. It's best I rest before continuing.

Good day

Fair enough, Jade. But do you really think you can change anyone's mind about this? And in the end, why would you? I'm sure rude people exist on any side of the argument, best to roll with it and move on, imho...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

dorktainian wrote...

jade.

can i throw a suggestion into the pot for you?

The three choices all go to the same point in the decision chamber. The weapon fires. The colour doesnt matter. No matter which choice the weapon always fires. What do we have to gain from this? The crapalist tells us we've changed the variables. What were the variables before? I dont buy it. To me it stinks of a trap. All 3 fire the weapon. The weapon that disables the relays.... It doesnt do anything else. think about it. dont look at the colours....just the relays. Without the relays we're doomed. Easy pickings for the reapers.    


do not look at the colours.  they are a lie.  the only choice is to choose your own choice.  refuse.  Refuse their doctrine.


We fight or we die.

If I role play my Shepard correctly through that sequence she has to refuse. She's paranoid. Especially when presented with three choices from the reapers. Let's assume the Catalyst is being 100% honest.

1. The fact that she is standing there, the first organic ever, is proof that the solution of the harvest won't work anymore.

2. WE find a new solution. WE being the reapers. But you think WE is you and he.

3. All three solutions meet their agenda.

4. Now, Shepard, pick one to inflict on the galaxy. All the mass relays will be destroyed by the energy released by the crucible, or at minimum severely damaged no matter which you choose. In each of these you will die. Your time is at an end. You must choose.

I refuse your solutions.

You will lose everything you fought for.

I fight for freedom......

So be it. The harvest will continue

Hey, Harbinger! I thought you said your solution wouldn't work anymore? What were these others? One of those "surrender and you will be spared" lies of yours?

Trap? Sounds like it to me.

[dorktainian]

and then the beam is turned off. they cannot make the decision and have to rely on an organic to do so. thats why they need shepard. to make their choice. maybe a part of their programming? a failsafe built into the program by the organics that created the reapers. The reapers will shut down without the re-initiate program command which can only be delivered by an organic. The reaper cannot do this. They indoctrinate organics till they are in a position to make the decision without question.  Thats why he sounds pissed off when shep refuses. The beam then stops working.  


Hooray team nearly-Indoctrinated Shepard.  We win.

Modifié par dorktainian, 18 décembre 2012 - 11:42 .

[SpamBot2000]

The player doesn't fail in refuse. The game does, it just freezes at that point.

All these people shouting: 'YOU MUST CHOOSE A, B OR C! Because that's what BioWare require!' are just trying to justify their pick.

They are on BioWare leash, barking about there being no alternative to that.

[Dysjong]

Aha.....

So it had nothing to do with:

Shepard stopped Sovereign in the first game.
Shepard has synthetics parts.
Is the only organic being that had experience the geth consensius and kept his sanity.
Stoppede the collectors.
And let us not forget Rannoch and it's outcome.

No, i see no reasons why the catalyst would be interested in Shepard (facepalm)

[SpamBot2000]

Dysjong wrote...

Aha.....

So it had nothing to do with:

Shepard stopped Sovereign in the first game.
Shepard has synthetics parts.
Is the only organic being that had experience the geth consensius and kept his sanity.
Stoppede the collectors.
And let us not forget Rannoch and it's outcome.

No, i see no reasons why the catalyst would be interested in Shepard (facepalm)

Lots of people stopped Sovereign in the first game. Even the reaperized Saren was stopped by Shepard, Garrus and Liara in my playthrough. Same goes for the Collectors.  

I hate this 'The Shepard' myth-making. No Space Jebus for me. 'twas a Team Effort. Perhaps even a Mass Effect.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[Argolas]

I understand the reasons to pick refuse, but none Shepard I ever created could do that. In that extreme situation, my Shepard puts result over principle, so he rather gets the "blood" of all synthetics on his hands and saves the others who he was fighting for than keeping those hands clean and being unable to do anything more than maybe shooting some more reaper troops before dying himself (if he actually gets extracted from the decision chamber).

[Dysjong]

Im just pointing out why the catalyst would talk with Shepard.

Edit: just a random thought but how would Denny Crane or Alan Shore (Boston legal) handle the catalyst?

Modifié par Dysjong, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:16 .

[Ieldra]

Jade8aby88 wrote...
I can't understand anyone's mind set who chooses Synthesis. Different horses for different courses. Fact is, Refuse was the only option that best suited my Shepard.

Don't pretend you're trying to do me any favours.

Maybe that came across the wrong way. Sorry about that. I was just trying to understand - since I got from your OP that you wanted to explain why you chose Refuse.

Perhaps I should explain what I do understand: You're saying "I can't do it" to the other options. That, I understand. Or rather, I understand why you feel that way. I just don't understand how you can actually go through with it.

The part I don't understand is where you say you're fighting for everyone's freedom. Or rather, I do understand that you want to be completely free of the Catalyst's meddling one way or the other. Yep, I am feeling more or less the same. But the plain fact is, you are not free of it, the price of asserting that freedom is the death of everyone in this cycle, and as a gesture it achieves nothing since no one actually gains any freedom, not even you. I understand that, and why, you *want* to take that choice. I just don't understand how you can.

Do you know what I felt when I met the Catalyst for the first time: "Hell, Bioware dares tell me this would-be god determines what I can do or not? That not I, but this...thing...holds the solution in its hands? My Shepards are defiant in the presence of gods!" (I even posted the latter in one of my first ending complaints posts). So, I do have sympathy for the viewpoint, believe it or not. However, defiance is an empty gesture when it achieves nothing, and worse when there are alternatives which achieve something, as bad as that may make me feel. At least that's how I see it. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[SpamBot2000]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Do you know what I felt when I met the Catalyst for the first time: "Hell, Bioware dares tell me this would-be god determines what I can do or not? That not I, but this...thing...holds the solution in its hands? My Shepards are defiant in the presence of gods!" (I even posted the latter in one of my first ending complaints posts). 

First thought, best thought.

[Ieldra]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Do you know what I felt when I met the Catalyst for the first time: "Hell, Bioware dares tell me this would-be god determines what I can do or not? That not I, but this...thing...holds the solution in its hands? My Shepards are defiant in the presence of gods!" (I even posted the latter in one of my first ending complaints posts). 

First thought, best thought.

Maybe. But the first thought does not necessarily lead to the best action. Make no mistake, I still hate the message that I don't have primary agency here, but that's my problem, not a flaw with the story. All my hate won't make it go away. What I feel is irrelevant, only what I do counts. And *that* message I am ready to subscribe to.

Also, another message I subscribe to is "human agency may be irrelevant on a cosmic scale". Whatever I feel when that message is brought home to me, it makes a great deal of sense.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 décembre 2012 - 12:50 .