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I have made my choice [Refuse isn't inaction]


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#326
inversevideo

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And finally someone posted this. Finally after 5 years, at my request, someone posted this video. All other videos show Shepard being nice. Please watch this. This is the Shepard we remember. This is MY Shepard. This is the Shepard from Mass Effect 1. This is Shepard's confrontation with Saren in the Citadel the way it should have been shown. Shepard is mad as hell. This is the greatest boss conversation in the series. Listen to these words.

Shepard would definitely refuse The Catalyst.


Yah! My Femshep always renegaded Saren as well. It just feels right.

#327
sH0tgUn jUliA

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inversevideo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And finally someone posted this. Finally after 5 years, at my request, someone posted this video. All other videos show Shepard being nice. Please watch this. This is the Shepard we remember. This is MY Shepard. This is the Shepard from Mass Effect 1. This is Shepard's confrontation with Saren in the Citadel the way it should have been shown. Shepard is mad as hell. This is the greatest boss conversation in the series. Listen to these words.

Shepard would definitely refuse The Catalyst.


Yah! My Femshep always renegaded Saren as well. It just feels right.


Haven't seen you around here for a while. Good to see you back. :)

#328
inversevideo

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And finally someone posted this. Finally after 5 years, at my request, someone posted this video. All other videos show Shepard being nice. Please watch this. This is the Shepard we remember. This is MY Shepard. This is the Shepard from Mass Effect 1. This is Shepard's confrontation with Saren in the Citadel the way it should have been shown. Shepard is mad as hell. This is the greatest boss conversation in the series. Listen to these words.

Shepard would definitely refuse The Catalyst.


Yah! My Femshep always renegaded Saren as well. It just feels right.


Haven't seen you around here for a while. Good to see you back. :)


Thanks! good to be back. BSN is the best!

#329
AlanC9

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dorktainian wrote...
but as i stated earlier today we are doomed if we use red/blue or green.  the crudible still fires.  the relays are still disabled. although those nice cut scenes show you what 'supposedly' happens after the decision something just doesnt feel right.  star brat wants us to choose one of 'his' choices.  i don't want to.  shepard would never choose something harbinger offered.


If you're going to conclude that the game is lying to you in the endings, why do you believe the part about the relays being destroyed?

#330
Dysjong

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Dorktainian

That is your reason for picking refuse and believing in IT theory.

I stil believe in the catalyst, i stil hate it for asking me to do something. If i refuse, then i am dooming the galaxy to the same fate as the protheans.

Sure you might call it hope for the future but im not dealing in plans that takes fruit after the harvest, after the galactic genocide and whatever horrors i would allow by refusing. If i did plan after such long term goals, that wouldnt benefit before 100 years or longer, then i am no better then the catalyst and it's current solution.

#331
dorktainian

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Dysjong wrote...

Dorktainian

That is your reason for picking refuse and believing in IT theory.

I stil believe in the catalyst, i stil hate it for asking me to do something. If i refuse, then i am dooming the galaxy to the same fate as the protheans.

Sure you might call it hope for the future but im not dealing in plans that takes fruit after the harvest, after the galactic genocide and whatever horrors i would allow by refusing. If i did plan after such long term goals, that wouldnt benefit before 100 years or longer, then i am no better then the catalyst and it's current solution.

 

just remember at the end of the day this is a game we're talking about.  if harbinger walked up to you with a gun and said that he would end the war if you shot yourself, would you do it?

No.  so why would you accept any of his choices?

#332
sH0tgUn jUliA

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dorktainian wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Dorktainian

That is your reason for picking refuse and believing in IT theory.

I stil believe in the catalyst, i stil hate it for asking me to do something. If i refuse, then i am dooming the galaxy to the same fate as the protheans.

Sure you might call it hope for the future but im not dealing in plans that takes fruit after the harvest, after the galactic genocide and whatever horrors i would allow by refusing. If i did plan after such long term goals, that wouldnt benefit before 100 years or longer, then i am no better then the catalyst and it's current solution.

 

just remember at the end of the day this is a game we're talking about.  if harbinger walked up to you with a gun and said that he would end the war if you shot yourself, would you do it?

No.  so why would you accept any of his choices?


This (shooting yourself) requires that you have absolute trust in Harbinger. If you do, you are indoctrinated. :whistle:

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 18 décembre 2012 - 08:57 .


#333
Dysjong

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Because it's not Harbinger to begin with but the catalyst.

Of course it's a game and this isnt the first time in any RPG's where i have been given the forbidden truth, not the first time where i changede the World(rpg setting), for better or worse. Im used to these things.

Go back some few pages and you will see why i took synthesis.

Calling refuse the only choice... Nah

Modifié par Dysjong, 18 décembre 2012 - 09:03 .


#334
AlanC9

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dorktainian wrote...

just remember at the end of the day this is a game we're talking about.  if harbinger walked up to you with a gun and said that he would end the war if you shot yourself, would you do it?

No.  so why would you accept any of his choices?


The answer is different because it's a game? How so?

#335
dorktainian

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AlanC9 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...
but as i stated earlier today we are doomed if we use red/blue or green.  the crudible still fires.  the relays are still disabled. although those nice cut scenes show you what 'supposedly' happens after the decision something just doesnt feel right.  star brat wants us to choose one of 'his' choices.  i don't want to.  shepard would never choose something harbinger offered.


If you're going to conclude that the game is lying to you in the endings, why do you believe the part about the relays being destroyed?

disabled.  the game aint lying to you on every level.  thats the whole point of the crudible.  it aint no magic source of intergalactic peace.  its a power source. a power source for a big f.....in gun.  that gun aint gonna help us.

as far as lying about the endings..... thats shep falling into indoctrination.  thats what he sees if he makes those choices.  the gun still fires. think about it.  in control he is vapourised.  yep he's dead.  in synthesis he is vapourised.  yep dead.  in destroy he shoots the tube, forcing an explosion.  he takes his breath. however he is indoctrinated.  he has done exactly what harbinger wanted him to do.  the gun has been fired.  each of the three choices triggers the gun.  check if you dont believe me.  the gun fires.

the only ending where shepard is free of indoctrination is the refusal ending.  the beam turns off. the gun does not fire.

#336
dorktainian

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Dysjong wrote...

Because it's not Harbinger to begin with but the catalyst.

Of course it's a game and this isnt the first time in any RPG's where i have been given the forbidden truth, not the first time where i changede the World(rpg setting), for better or worse. Im used to these things.

Go back some few pages and you will see why i took synthesis.

Calling refuse the only choice... Nah

keep telling yourself that and eventually you might be right.

#337
Dysjong

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Dorktainian....

Sorry but if you continue with forcing/indrocinating your opinion, then i will report you. I don't mind a heatet discussion but this is starting to be a little ridiculious.

#338
3DandBeyond

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Dorktainian

That is your reason for picking refuse and believing in IT theory.

I stil believe in the catalyst, i stil hate it for asking me to do something. If i refuse, then i am dooming the galaxy to the same fate as the protheans.

Sure you might call it hope for the future but im not dealing in plans that takes fruit after the harvest, after the galactic genocide and whatever horrors i would allow by refusing. If i did plan after such long term goals, that wouldnt benefit before 100 years or longer, then i am no better then the catalyst and it's current solution.

 

just remember at the end of the day this is a game we're talking about.  if harbinger walked up to you with a gun and said that he would end the war if you shot yourself, would you do it?

No.  so why would you accept any of his choices?


This (shooting yourself) requires that you have absolute trust in Harbinger. If you do, you are indoctrinated. :whistle:


This is the thing.  The kid wants you to trust him-you must trust him to believe the choices do what he says they do.  For all we know they could just make ice cream out of people goo.  They certainly aren't described as doing what everyone thought the crucible was for.

And I go back to this-who made the crucible.  It is meant to work with the catalyst.  Who knew about the catalyst-leviathan, the reapers, and now Shepard and the kid himself.  Whoever made it would have to know what the catalyst is, but leviathan says they didn't make it.  So that leaves Shepard (nope didn't make it), and the reapers and the kid.  So, all we know is it's likely that the kid made the crucible and the choices.  Trust only goes so far especially when seeing all those bodies piled up on the Citadel and knowing who's responsible.  I cannot see anyone trusting Harbinger nor Bob the Reaper.  So why is it people are implicitly trusting the glow boy reaper commander?  He's not especially compelling or even rational.  And kind, no way, I can see right through that act.

#339
Dysjong

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One thing all reapers have in common, is that they have no need for lying.

They might see things a little different but they arnt lying.

#340
Anacronian Stryx

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Most of these arguments are made after the fact because people know how the endings turns out - meta playing in short.

Ask yourself this - If you were Shepard in that situation for the first time would you really believe the Catalyst on anything he says and why?

Seriously the Catalyst readily admits to being the collective conscious of the reapers, The reapers that you know has done nothing but trying to manipulate events to their favor thought the games, it is their one consistent trait, Hell Shepard must expect that the child form of the Catalyst is yet another attempt to manipulate him/her.

So really why would you ever want to do anything the Catalyst wants? - when everything about this scene must remind Shepard of doing a deal with the devil?

"Sure I'm just gonna walk over and grab those two electrified handles and probably burn myself into a crisp or jump into a huge goddamn energy beam..wait i might even shoot up that tube that could release gods know what just because you suggest it Mr collective conscious of the reapers"..

Yeah right.

#341
dorktainian

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AlanC9 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

just remember at the end of the day this is a game we're talking about.  if harbinger walked up to you with a gun and said that he would end the war if you shot yourself, would you do it?

No.  so why would you accept any of his choices?


The answer is different because it's a game? How so?

oh dear god.  it's a game.  there are no real bullets.  you are not really shepard.  there is a disconnect.  this is not real.

the decision question is a question about trust.  About trusting yourself.  About not taking someones word just cos they say its gonna happen.

ok....change slightly.  Swap Shepard in the decision chamber for Saren.  What choice would saren make and why?  now put TIM in the same position and answer.  then finally put anderson in the same position and answer.  three different answers.  none of them correct.  this game aint about them, it's about shepard ending the reaper threat and if he pulls that trigger he aint got a cat in hells chance.  3 choices.  1 outcome.  Does this support IT.  in a way yes, but also no.  The mistake imo everyone that disses the refuse ending makes is assuming we have a choice if we pick a colour.  Who is giving us that choice?  why should we trust them?  

would you have enough courage in your own convictions to be able to make the right choice?

My choice is to refuse the choices that they are forcing us to make.  If i'm going to go down then i'll go down fighting and take as many of the murdering assoles down with me as i can.  No one says it's going to be easy.  thats my choice.  that was shepards choice before the reapers got to him.

#342
Anacronian Stryx

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Dysjong wrote...

One thing all reapers have in common, is that they have no need for lying.

They might see things a little different but they arnt lying.


The reapers manipulate Saren.
The reapers manipulate the minds or organics though indoctrination.
The reapers manipulate the bodies of organics, Making them controllable as Husks.
The reapers manipulate the entire Galaxy into believing they don't exist until it's to late.

On and on and on..

Deceit, manipulation and all out lying is the reapers primary tools.
 

#343
geceka

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3DandBeyond wrote...

And the kid is really a little bit less than believable, his motives and his reality somewhat transparent.


I don't really see how the catalyst's motives are "transparent" and how it is not "believable", considering it just brought Shepard up into his chamber, when it could have simply left him to die in the lower Citadel area. "Refuse" only shows us that the catalyst can very well obliterate the combined forces of the species without Shepard needing to do anything, so the fact that the catalyst is not in a predicament at all, but speaks to Shepard out of its own will, is a big invitation for trusting it far enough (and – metagaming-wise – the EC only confirms it is not lying about anything it says).

Similarly, if you find the catalyst so untrustworthy, how is it that you don't complain about Shepard trusting, say, Vigil in ME1? After all, it claims to be a Prothean VI appearing conveniently in a location where Saren just went through after having been sealed off for thousands of years, yet you take its data and insert it into the Citadel main controls without any doubts? Or what about Vendetta, a VI that you just pulled out Cerberus' mainframe, that tells you to head straight for the Citadel, which is totally under Reaper control by now – I mean, how did you know that Cerberus wasn't messing with the VI (it's a VI, after all, not an AI). All these decisions were based on the fact that you didn't have any alternatives and that said entities didn't give you any reason to doubt them, and the catalyst – speaking to you entirely out of its own will, not necessity - is no different.

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Going through the Omega-4 Relay, we were told it was -supposed- be a suicide mission, but there was no real evidence of why.


There's a gigantic difference here, compared to the war against the Reapers: Nobody knew what was beyond the Omega-4 relay – it was only assumed that the mission must be dangerous, because the Collectors are, in fact, dangerous. There has been talk about an entire Collector "planet" possibly lying beyond the relay, and that it was "just" a base with a single ship guarding it was actually a much better proposition than had been anticipated.

With the Reapers, however, well, they are in the galaxy right now, obliterating the military of every single species, with no leader having the slightest idea how to beat them, apart from taking chances with the Crucible: Sovereign announced that the Reapers were powerful, and up to the beginning of ME3, well, yes, you could technically claim that maybe the Reaper wars will be like the attack on the Collectors: The dangers exaggerated greatly. However, the force with which they attacked only backed up your worst fears.

In short: The dangers of going beyond the Omega-4 relay were based on speculation. The dangers of the Reapers are evident, happening right there in front of everyone's eyes. They are proven. That's a huge difference.

#344
Jadebaby

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Dysjong wrote...

Dorktainian....

Sorry but if you continue with forcing/indrocinating your opinion, then i will report you. I don't mind a heatet discussion but this is starting to be a little ridiculious.


Report him?

Hahaha, this thread has boomed to 14 pages in a day and all because anti-refuse people are trying to shut down those that would prefer to fight for everybody's freedom.

#345
Red Panda

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

One thing all reapers have in common, is that they have no need for lying.

They might see things a little different but they arnt lying.


The reapers manipulate Saren.
The reapers manipulate the minds or organics though indoctrination.
The reapers manipulate the bodies of organics, Making them controllable as Husks.
The reapers manipulate the entire Galaxy into believing they don't exist until it's to late.

On and on and on..

Deceit, manipulation and all out lying is the reapers primary tools.
 


(Removed due to logical errors) Sorry.

Modifié par OperatingWookie, 18 décembre 2012 - 09:36 .


#346
geceka

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dorktainian wrote...

If i'm going to go down then i'll go down fighting and take as many of the murdering assoles down with me as i can. No one says it's going to be easy.  thats my choice.


Lots of people in this thread have already said that refusing is a valid choice for Shepard to make. However, you say "If I'm going down...". Shepard doesn't just make a decision for themselves here, they make a decision for the entire galaxy, trillions of innocent lives, civilians who will not "go down fighting" like heroes, but who will be dragged out of their homes into the processing ships of the Reapers. The scope of the decision isn't just you, it's about the entire galaxy.

#347
Anacronian Stryx

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OperatingWookie wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

One thing all reapers have in common, is that they have no need for lying.

They might see things a little different but they arnt lying.


The reapers manipulate Saren.
The reapers manipulate the minds or organics though indoctrination.
The reapers manipulate the bodies of organics, Making them controllable as Husks.
The reapers manipulate the entire Galaxy into believing they don't exist until it's to late.

On and on and on..

Deceit, manipulation and all out lying is the reapers primary tools.
 



LOL



Well, yes, but IT is fan-fiction...
 Image IPB
Bioware already said that DLC regarding such tinfoil hat propaganda will not be made.


Seriusly can you read?

#348
Ieldra

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Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Defiance is an empty gesture if it doesn't achieve anything.

If you're given the order to commit an atrocity and you refuse, and all that act of defiance accomplishes is that you're shot dead by your superior... it still wasn't meaningless.

If the war claims your life (which, realistically, Shepard knows will happen) at least you died resisting the Reapers instead of succumbing to them.

In the former case you are the only casualty. You are completely justified in making that decision for yourself. In the latter case, you're pulling down your whole civilization with you. And I won't even start on the nonsensical claim that using the Crucible means succumbing to the Reapers.

#349
Red Panda

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...


Seriusly can you read?



Bosh'tet! Wrong tab! Image IPB

Modifié par OperatingWookie, 18 décembre 2012 - 09:36 .


#350
DeepChild

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Jade8aby88 wrote...
...refuse is *the* hardest choice to actually make because of the fact that you're refusing. You're saying, look I know we spent the whole game building this thing, but what you're asking,  I can't do it, I wont. You're saying that you wont compromise in your role to win this war, and that you will fight to the death for what you believe is right.


Exactly right.  That's what makes the way this ending plays out so painful to watch.  I'm hoping Theory X, Y, or Z plays out eventually so that this choice receives a proper ending.  As it stands, this is more of a punch to the gut.