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I have made my choice [Refuse isn't inaction]


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#51
Applepie_Svk

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Jade8aby88 wrote...


Disclaimer: Literary Interpretation only.

Since my first canon playthrough being obviously Destroy, and then Extended Cut choosing refuse, I have been doing a lot of thinking about which ending best fits my canon's character, my character.

I have decided to choose refuse, this is based on a few reasons of which I will try to explain.

People in the past have said that refuse is the weak way out because you're failing to act and make a choice.

However, refuse is *the* hardest choice to actually make because of the fact that you're refusing. You're saying, look I know we spent the whole game building this thing, but what you're asking,  I can't do it, I wont. You're saying that you wont compromise in your role to win this war, and that you will fight to the death for what you believe is right.

But you're not just choosing to refuse the Catalyst because you don't like it's other choices or it's outcomes. You're also choosing to fight for everybody's freedom, and that is why refuse isn't inaction. Because that is the choice, to fight for everyone, and this is why it deserves a better ending because standing up for what you believe in shouldn't be rewarded with mass nihilism.
Plus, even if it were successful, it's not like there wouldn't be any casualties at all. Therefore there could still be some consequences in choosing it, other than *everyone* dying.
Because, as it stands, that's the only part of refuse I can't stomach, is it's result (In fact, my canon romances Liara so I can't watch it at all). It really is indefensible.

Also, not only did the Rannoch arc (if you made peace) disprove the Catalyst's assertions, but in the refuse ending you're once again choosing to fight for them too, treating them as an even truer equal, when you had another chance to destroy them. And that's what I prefer about Refuse over Destroy, because you're only proving the Catalyst right if you do destroy them.

So refuse haters, please recognize that if someone says they support refuse, the chances are they are supporting the choice to fight for everybody, at least moreso than they are supporting it's result.


True indeed, I found nice about refuse a fact that this is the real sacrifice - the only one which is really meant as a sacrifice. I don´t want go into Godwin, but that´s what deffinetly bothering me about endings itself - we are supposed to co-operate with monster to help solve its problem, problem which we have managed to solve on our own he was supposed to take care, not mentioned that for AI with unlimited potential to solve this problem he found very limited way to solve problem and easy one...

What I really didn´t like about game as whole is the fact that Legion was retconed into some abomination calling for Reaper´s upgrades, when before he was saying that Geths seek own future - that´s the way where ****load starts - either support geths to become what they were refusing or let them die.

For example I would really liked one thing, see Wrex or old Legion and Catalyst - for some reason I think that they both would also choose refuse...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:38 .


#52
Dysjong

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No, refuse is one choice out the total you can make. I respect it, because it does have some moral merits but it's not because it's in line with what Shepard would do. Why? Because my shepard is very different from yours.

#53
BansheeOwnage

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ThaDPG wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

@ Steel Can, sorry, as soon as i see someone mention the word "conventional" I tune out.

Well that's what Refuse banks on.  Conventional Victory, which we know isn't possible due to.... reasons.

Nah. The reapers are great at making themselves look better (and more numerous) tha they actually are. There is plenty of foreshadowing that the Crucible may be some sort of trap anyway, so not using it might be a smart decision.



Exactly, other than everyone TELLING you that conventional victory is impossible, there has been foreshadowing and hints throughout the series that the Reapers aren't as invincible and unstoppable as they either make themselves out to be, or think they are

It's just like everyone saying you can't go through the Omega-4 relay. Shepard has made a career off of achieving the imossible, and things are only impossible until someone does them.

#54
Wayning_Star

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Jade8aby88

That depends. If i choice destroy, then i would kill all geth and EDI, which i couldnt do, i let the rachni Queen live in the first game.

Control didnt suitede me, because i told TIM that we were not ready for it.

Synthesis was the only solution for me, because i respect all life, including the geth. Plus that the older races who are reapers, won't be forgotten and the current cycle would benefit more from that wisdom.

It's a gamble, i already knew from the start but i had to do something.

If you respect all life, how can you possibly force something on everyone. I'm sorry, synthesis is inexcusable on the morality compass.


which morality compass? The one here or the one governing the  MEU? The trap was laid by organics, so they're the ones taking responisbility for their actions. Synthesis is only the byproduct of reality in the MEU. Otherwise the problems faced wouldn't exist. Shep really doesn't have any choices. Everything is fixed and Shep cannot change it. Synthesis is the only option with the "power" to disperse the reapers for good. They serve no purpose with synthesis, as reapers.

#55
Steelcan

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Dysjong wrote...

And so is destroy? Making legions sacrifice a joke? Atleast i sacrificed myself in order to give the Galaxy a chance for a better understanding. They are stil alive in synthesis and they can learn from the past cycles because of the reapers.

How that chance is affecting the rest of the galaxy, i don't know.

His sacrifice was always a joke.  Legion's death was contrived and only played for tears.

But go ahead, gene rape the galaxy

#56
DeinonSlayer

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Dysjong wrote...

No, refuse is one choice out the total you can make. I respect it, because it does have some moral merits but it's not because it's in line with what Shepard would do. Why? Because my shepard is very different from yours.

My Shepard? Upon hearing what Destroy does, he'd start in that direction. More options, you say? "Talk fast - I'm moving."

Also not understanding your objection to Control and acceptance of Synthesis. We're not ready to use the Reapers' tech... but we're ready to have it spontaneously grafted into us? Not reasy to use it, but ready to have them "give" it to us?

No. We build our own future. At least in Control, Shepard is the only person being violated.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:41 .


#57
Doctoglethorpe

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My Shepard would refuse, and would of still won, but my Shepard disappeared sometime after ME2 and was replaced by Mac Walters' Shepard.  *shrug*

#58
xtorma

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Shepard in Refuse "I am too moral to save billions of lives"


"I won't let fear compromise who I am..."



"... but I will let who I am compromise everybody's life trololololo."


These are the kinds of quotes I'm talking about in the OP, is it that hard to understand that without metagaming, you don't know you're going to lose? These kinds of quotes just ****** me off, especially when I already addressed it in the OP.

And as for, "But I will let who I am compromise everybody's life trlololol." Have you not seen the Synthesis ending?


It doesn't take a military genious to figure out the end result of war with the reapers.


People said Shepard would lose people on the suicide mission too.

Crucible has the power to disperse enough energy, use it to bring down Reaper's barriers, Then we could kick their arses.

@Steelcan, sorry, tuned out again....


 there are only 3 triggers to the crucible , unless you know about another. I never chose refuse, are you able to fire it?

#59
Neizd

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Good topic. Refuse is the best choice if you consider ME3 to be RPG-game.

In RPG you are playing character while "being him". With this knowledge in mind you should look at the choices from Shepard's point of view.

1. Shepard does NOT know if the catalyst is telling the truth or no. All he gets is the possibility to toss a coin and choose one of three choices that may as well doom everyone.
2. Shepard worked really hard for YEARS to achieve the victory. He assembled squad, cheated death, tried to help everyone and convince them that the Reapers threat is true. He gathered allies in ME3 so the question is: "Does he trusts in his own hard work?"

In short: By refusing shepard is not choosing to do nothing. He simply chooses to believe in his own hard work, in his allies and that it is enough to win the war with the Reapers. He again chooses to toss a coin to get a small chance of victory, but by doing so, this time he also chooses to trust in others and has the thing called "hope".

#60
BansheeOwnage

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Dysjong wrote...

No, refuse is one choice out the total you can make. I respect it, because it does have some moral merits but it's not because it's in line with what Shepard would do. Why? Because my shepard is very different from yours.

Without even talking about the current discussion, I can tell you that Shepard has some very specific traits that all Shepards have, regardless of your choices. There are baseline tendencies that are unnavoidable. Remember, paragon and renegade are 2 means to the same end. Your argument is invalid.

#61
Dysjong

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Steelcan - i just did that :D

Deinonslayer - yeah, i am pretty sure your playthrough is different from mine.

#62
Steelcan

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Dysjong wrote...

Steelcan - i just did that :D

Deinonslayer - yeah, i am pretty sure your playthrough is different from mine.

And people say Destroy is abhorrent

#63
AngryFrozenWater

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I respect your choice, J. But the cost of that principle is too high. Too many die and the next cycle has to make a choice or the same thing happens again. So why delay that and let all those die? Better to do it now and get it over with.

My question would be this; Why does the cost of that principle have to be more severe than those of any other ending?

Numbers. Simple numbers of those who die because of your principles.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:44 .


#64
BansheeOwnage

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

No, refuse is one choice out the total you can make. I respect it, because it does have some moral merits but it's not because it's in line with what Shepard would do. Why? Because my shepard is very different from yours.

My Shepard? Upon hearing what Destroy does, he'd start in that direction. More options, you say? "Talk fast - I'm moving."

Also not understanding your objection to Control and acceptance of Synthesis. We're not ready to use the Reapers' tech... but we're ready to have it spontaneously grafted into us? Not reasy to use it, but ready to have them "give" it to us?

No. We build our own future. At least in Control, Shepard is the only person being violated.

I like this human. He understands! To add to that, synthesis is directly undermining Legion's sacrifice. Legion was the one talking about not accepting the reapers' gifts. He wanted us to build our own future, not have the reapers give it to us. He would never pick synthesis. In fact, he would almost certainly chose destroy. "No more compromise with the Old Machines."

Moreover, EDI stated that she would rather become nonfuntional than let the reapers survive, because the reapers are repulsive. In addition, all of the geth (by nature of their consensus) are soldiers. Soldiers willing to sacrifice themselves to accomplish the mission. I don't like that they die, but the morals there are infinitely better than control or synthesis...

#65
Applepie_Svk

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...


Numbers. Simple numbers of those who die because of your principles.


There is one thing - principle =/= flip of the coin

#66
Reorte

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Steelcan wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Steelcan - i just did that :D

Deinonslayer - yeah, i am pretty sure your playthrough is different from mine.

And people say Destroy is abhorrent

Oh, it is. Just less so than the other choices with the possible exception of Control, which is just a massive gamble. Unless you're playing Renegade in which case Control sounds pretty abhorrent too although possibly in keeping with you character.

#67
DeinonSlayer

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Steelcan wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Steelcan - i just did that :D

Deinonslayer - yeah, i am pretty sure your playthrough is different from mine.

And people say Destroy is abhorrent

:sick:

^ Oh look - it's green too!

#68
Steelcan

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Reorte wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Steelcan - i just did that :D

Deinonslayer - yeah, i am pretty sure your playthrough is different from mine.

And people say Destroy is abhorrent

Oh, it is. Just less so than the other choices with the possible exception of Control, which is just a massive gamble. Unless you're playing Renegade in which case Control sounds pretty abhorrent too although possibly in keeping with you character.

Destroy is perfectly in character for my Shepards

#69
BansheeOwnage

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Steelcan - i just did that :D

Deinonslayer - yeah, i am pretty sure your playthrough is different from mine.

And people say Destroy is abhorrent

:sick:

^ Oh look - it's green too!

I'm pretty sure Bioware made an emoticon specifically for synthesis Image IPB  Image IPB

#70
AngryFrozenWater

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Applepie_Svk wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


Numbers. Simple numbers of those who die because of your principles.

There is one thing - principle =/= flip of the coin

And what does flipping a coin have to do with making a choice? Refusing its options most likely means that Liara's device will be used. That doesn't seem to me like flipping a coin.

#71
Rip504

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Some could consider refusal an act of cowardice. Just saying.

#72
BansheeOwnage

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Steelcan wrote...
Destroy is perfectly in character for my Shepards

Really, it's in character for all Shepards. There are some traits about Shepard you can't change.

#73
ThaDPG

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Steelcan - i just did that :D

Deinonslayer - yeah, i am pretty sure your playthrough is different from mine.

And people say Destroy is abhorrent

:sick:

^ Oh look - it's green too!

I'm pretty sure Bioware made an emoticon specifically for synthesis Image IPB  Image IPB


Wouldn't surprise me since they seem to like it so much

#74
ThaDPG

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Rip504 wrote...

Some could consider refusal an act of cowardice. Just saying.


No, refusal is just Shepard being like Bioware and sticking to his guns

#75
Dysjong

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And if i destroy, then the geth will die, making legions sacrifice a joke.

And how would legion react then? Sacrificing himself and his race? I don't think. No one would choice to sacrifice there own race. Just look at legacy of kain.

Im fine with the endings. Each one of them has it's pros and cons.