40 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I've seen it around the forum enough now to realize that it's not a few people misunderstanding, it's nearly everyone. I've copied and pasted a post I made about this once already to respond to a refuse thread, but now I'm thinking that I might need to give that pasted post its own thread.

Most of you "refuse" guys think that anything but refuse is letting the Catalyst dictate the terms? No, that's not how it worked. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to doit. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When yourefuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file (a non-virus one, before someone gets cute) asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone, you handed the choice back to the Reapers by choice because of refusing. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear. 

Refusers, you had the control of the Crucible and the Catalyst in your hands, and politely handed it back to the Catalyst by shutting the Crucible down. Epic "derp" moment right there. You had total control, was the one dictating the terms of how this encounter was going to go down, had the full house of cards to your chest... And responded by deciding to release control, let the Catalyst dictate instead, and folded the hand of cards you had. Good job.

Bottom line, the Catalyst was a scared litte b**ch who could at best use some word manipulation to try to coerce you into picking the option he preferred... Or do something supremely stupid and reject the Crucible by mentally rejecting it either by saying it out loud as you thought it in your head or by shooting the Crucible's current mouthpiece. Make no mistake, destroy is the very last thing he wants. When you go up there with low EMS and destroy is the only option, he's sounds really angry. That anger is because he knows that he doesn't even have a chance to avoiding destroy, there's no options but that. Yet he still has to bring you up there even though you coming up angers him so much. Kind of telling actually (doesn't want you up there=brings you up anyway=clearly not a being in control of themselves).


Now, I know this thread isn't going to somehow make this false idea that the Catalyst is in control of the conversation. But if it makes even a few less posts happen saying that then before this thread, it was worth it.

Note that the formatting might be messed up for a few minutes into this thread's creation. Pasting stuff on this forum screws the formatting like crazy 9 times out of 10. I'll fix it if it does, but early clickers might see a disaster of formatting.

Modifié par andy69156915, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[JasonShepard]

I see your point, but I disagree. There's no proof that the Crucible is controlling the Catalyst. You've created an explanation as to why the Catalyst seemingly offers choices that it doesn't like, but other than the fact that it does explain that, you have no evidence. It's a decent explanation though, so if you want to decide that this is what happened in your game, you're welcome to. Just don't tell other people that they're wrong - they usually don't respond well to it 

I personally prefer this explanation here. Short version: the fact that the Crucible plans were able to persist through multiple cycles proves to the Catalyst that it's solution isn't watertight, and therefore won't work forever. As a result, it's willing to offer you the options provided by the Crucible, since it now considers each of them 'better' than its own solution.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[o Ventus]

The Catalyst refers to itself as the "Catalyst".

Modifié par o Ventus, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[andy6915]

"Just don't tell other people that they're wrong - they usually don't respond well to it."

Well... Point taken. You're right, it could turn people hostile to the idea because of how I worded it. Hopefully that doesn't happen though.

Other person-

Yes. Why wouldn't it? Being controlled or not, it's still the Catalyst of the Citadel. A geth or a LOKI mech doesn't stop being a geth or a LOKI mech just because I hit it with AI hacking.

Modifié par andy69156915, 17 décembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[krukow]

tl;dr

But I approve of any thread that insults refuse. F*ck refuse.

[fiendishchicken]

Inb4IT

[Applepie_Svk]

nice headcanon dude...

[Linkenski]

No the citadel is part of the catalyst like he says. Also notice that Vigil in ME1 says that the keepers are controlled by the citadel, which i think is in fact the intelligence that is the catalyst within the citadel. He controls the reapers and the keepers.

[bt043]

The Leviathans control the Keepers. The Citadel is their artifact.

[Uncle Jo]

Headcanon against even bigger headcanon. Your assumption about the "mental" connection Shep/Crucible through the control panel is backed up with absolutely nothing in-game.

What Shep merely did with the panel, was to open the arms of the Citadel. No more, no less. The Crucible wasn't already in place. As it docked with the Citadel, bleeding Shep never managed to "touch" the panel once again. Then the magical elevator popped out and the space magic began.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 18 décembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[Ticonderoga117]

How can you hack that which you don't know exists or know anything about? For all we know the Crucible is using Linux and DerpChild is using MAC.

Remember, no one knew that the Catalyst in his form and function, existed before Shepard got there.

[andy6915]

Uncle Jo -

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

Ticonderoga117-

The Catalyst is the processor of the Citadel, and the Crucible pretty much hacks it when it docks. It took control of the Catalyst by proxy of controlling the Citadel. Hack the Citadel=hack the Catalyst. Prior knowledge of the Catalyst was not needed, controlling one is controlling the other. It was forcing the Citadel to give you the information on the different options, and the Catalyst just happened to be the mouthpiece for it because it's pretty much the mind and voice of the station. He became the interface of the Crucible.

[Applepie_Svk]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Headcanon against even bigger headcanon. Your assumption about the "mental" connection Shep/Crucible through the control panel is backed up with absolutely nothing in-game.

What Shep merely did with the panel, was to open the arms of the Citadel. No more, no less. The Crucible wasn't already in place. As it docked with the Citadel, bleeding Shep never managed to "touch" the panel once again. Then the magical elevator popped out and the space magic began.

I would say that space magic starts right after hit by Harbinger... while everyone was instantly fried like a chicken by Harby´s lazor Shepard is in some magical way still alive. Then for traveling thru relay you need own working mass effect field generator, Shepard doesn´t need it ... and so on... 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 18 décembre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Humakt83]

o Ventus wrote...

The "Child" refers to itself as the "Catalyst".

Fixed. Turn on the subtitles and you see it. (Obviously it is just "Child" without quotation marks.)

Modifié par Humakt83, 18 décembre 2012 - 02:07 .

[KwangtungTiger]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Headcanon against even bigger headcanon. Your assumption about the "mental" connection Shep/Crucible through the control panel is backed up with absolutely nothing in-game.

What Shep merely did with the panel, was to open the arms of the Citadel. No more, no less. The Crucible wasn't already in place. As it docked with the Citadel, bleeding Shep never managed to "touch" the panel once again. Then the magical elevator popped out and the space magic began.

Absolutely this:wizard:

[Ticonderoga117]

andy69156915 wrote...
The Catalyst is the processor of the Citadel, and the Crucible pretty much hacks it when it docks. It took control of the Catalyst by proxy of controlling the Citadel. Hack the Citadel=hack the Catalyst. Prior knowledge of the Catalyst was not needed, controlling one is controlling the other. It was forcing the Citadel to give you the information on the different options, and the Catalyst just happened to be the mouthpiece for it because it's pretty much the mind and voice of the station. He became the interface of the Crucible.

Ok, now you're throwing in hardware. How do you speak the instruction set of the Citadel, when the only people who ever had a chance to study it (the Prothean scientists mentioned in ME1) died and couldn't relay a message detailing it?

Remember, no one EVER studies the Citadel, or they don't get far if they tried. No one found the giant MASS RELAY, no one is finding the main computer.

So, I say again, how do you hack/program something you do not know exists.

It's akin to looking at a computer tower, then programming a flash drive using nothing but machine code and hoping to hell you guessed correctly on it's ISA.

[The Heretic of Time]

JasonShepard wrote...

I see your point, but I disagree. There's no proof that the Crucible is controlling the Catalyst. You've created an explanation as to why the Catalyst seemingly offers choices that it doesn't like, but other than the fact that it does explain that, you have no evidence. It's a decent explanation though, so if you want to decide that this is what happened in your game, you're welcome to. Just don't tell other people that they're wrong - they usually don't respond well to it 


I personally prefer this explanation here. Short version: the fact that the Crucible plans were able to persist through multiple cycles proves to the Catalyst that it's solution isn't watertight, and therefore won't work forever. As a result, it's willing to offer you the options provided by the Crucible, since it now considers each of them 'better' than its own solution.

There is proof for the OPs idea though, very compelling proof actually. The Catalyst flat out states that the Crucible changed him, altered his programs/variables. This is literally said by the Catalyst.

He also literally says he can't choose any of the Crucible functions, only Shepard can.
We also know for a fact that at least in the low EMS ending, the Catalyst does not choose  to take Shepard for a ride on the elevator up to the decision chamber. We know this for a fact because the Catalyst flat out asks: "Why are you here?". Then he goes on explaining the solutions the Crucible offers that he himself doesn't like one single bit (except for Synthesis). Why would he do that? That doesn't really sound like we're talking to an AI with actual free-will who just chose to take Shepard up on the elevator, does it? That's because the Catalyst most likely isn't free after the Crucible docked. The Crucible possibly shackled him, he's turned into a shackled AI.

Therefor your explanation doesn't make any sense, but the explanation provided in the OP of this thread does.



Edit: That said, I don't agree with the idea of a "mental connection" between Shepard and the Crucible though. That just doesn't make any sense and sounds closer to fanfiction than an actual explanation of the nonsensical Catalyst drivel that we get in ME3.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 décembre 2012 - 02:32 .

[andy6915]

"Edit: That said, I don't agree with the idea of a "mental connection" between Shepard and the Crucible though. That just doesn't make any sense and sounds closer to fanfiction than an actual explanation of the nonsensical Catalyst drivel that we get in ME3."

Maybe. I do think though that seeing as the Catalyst and Crucible are linked by that point, that rejecting the Crucible by rejecting the options listed by the hacked-Catalyst is what shuts it off. The catalyst doesn't shut it off, it he could do that himself, he would on low EMS (if the only option is destroy and... Destroy, no way would he even give you a chance to use it at all). That's how I know that Shepard is the one that shuts it down with rejection. The mind link thing is just my idea of HOW Shepard turns it off. The question isn't who shuts it off in refuse, it's Shepard and it's obvious. What the question actually is, is how exactly does the it happen in the case of Shepard rejecting all the Crucible options.

Still, there is another explanation. If the Catalyst and Crucible are linked, which they are, then the Catalyst would be the ears of the Crucible too and not just a mouthpiece. Which is to say, the Crucible was listening to Shepard through the Catalyst, so when you tell it to shove off, the Crucible does exactly what it heard you tell it to do audibly. Same with shooting, shooting the Catalyst was seen as a rejection to all options, at which point it just shuts down because there's no point in staying on.

Think of the Catalyst as the eyes, ears, and mouth for the Crucible. Tell it no, and it obeys and shuts off. Shooting it is also a rejection, as it reads into your motives as that being your decision in the event you do that.

[sunnydxmen]

I always thought the catalyst was harbringer, cause you do refuse it gets mad in sounds like a reaper.I also think the catalyst is a energy being.

[andy6915]

^
I thought that too, before EC and Leviathan made it clear that there really is some kind of Reaper controlling intelligence somewhere. Now though, it wouldn't make sense.

[Ticonderoga117]

sunnydxmen wrote...

I always thought the catalyst was harbringer, cause you do refuse it gets mad in sounds like a reaper.I also think the catalyst is a energy being.

Except he's not... because he was built by the Leviathans to be a moron.

[KiwiQuiche]

Don't care, I'll still refuse that abomination.

[Jadebaby]

tl;dr, nor do I care.

Everything in this is just your opinion.

[Someone With Mass]

No wonder it felt like I was talking to someone with severe brain damage and destroyed him to put him out of his misery.

[Cypher_CS]

Err... no.

The Crucible doesn't hack anything. Yes, it forces the Catalyst to show his cards, but more in the sense of being faced with an impasse. Not hacked by it.