------------------------------------
(edited out personal view)
Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 25 décembre 2012 - 03:16 .
Is Anora or Alistair a better king, if you judge without bias?
Débuté par
IntoTheDarkness
, déc. 18 2012 05:49
#1
Posté 18 décembre 2012 - 05:49
IntoTheDarkness
-
- Members
- 1 014 messages
I would rather many people voiced their opinions than I debating against everyone, thus I wrote the title with a neutral stance.
------------------------------------
(edited out personal view)
------------------------------------
(edited out personal view)
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 18 décembre 2012 - 06:29
Corker
-
- Members
- 2 766 messages
1. If Alistair leaves the party, Anora does lead the army to war. Dialogue with Loghain, if you recruit him, indicates that she's trained in both sword and bow. She wears red steel armor at the end game, same as Teagan. I don't recall if it's medium or heavy, but even a medium set of red steel requires as 28 Strength. Not too bad.
2. Depending on how you sequence your quests and who is in your party, Alistair can lie by omission for most of the game.
3. Grey Wardens are supposed to stay out of politics, unless you're in the Anderfels. As neutral parties dedicated to the good of Thedas above and beyond any single nation, it's not a good idea to put them on thrones.
4. Alistair's backbone or lack thereof varies by playthough. In the Darkspawn Chronicles, it appears that all of the 'dark' choices have been made, suggesting that Morrigan was calling the shots throughout. Also, he fails.
5. Anora definitely does not flee the darkspawn invasion. If Alistair leaves the party, she is with the troops in the field. If she is deposed, she is imprisoned in Denerim. In other cases, it is less clear where she is, but there's no evidence that she runs away. Certainly no one mentions it at the afterparty.
Hardened Alistair makes a perfectly reasonable king. But these 'reasons' are hardly 'without bias.'
2. Depending on how you sequence your quests and who is in your party, Alistair can lie by omission for most of the game.
3. Grey Wardens are supposed to stay out of politics, unless you're in the Anderfels. As neutral parties dedicated to the good of Thedas above and beyond any single nation, it's not a good idea to put them on thrones.
4. Alistair's backbone or lack thereof varies by playthough. In the Darkspawn Chronicles, it appears that all of the 'dark' choices have been made, suggesting that Morrigan was calling the shots throughout. Also, he fails.
5. Anora definitely does not flee the darkspawn invasion. If Alistair leaves the party, she is with the troops in the field. If she is deposed, she is imprisoned in Denerim. In other cases, it is less clear where she is, but there's no evidence that she runs away. Certainly no one mentions it at the afterparty.
Hardened Alistair makes a perfectly reasonable king. But these 'reasons' are hardly 'without bias.'
#3
Posté 18 décembre 2012 - 07:37
IntoTheDarkness
-
- Members
- 1 014 messages
Corker wrote...
1. If Alistair leaves the party, Anora does lead the army to war. Dialogue with Loghain, if you recruit him, indicates that she's trained in both sword and bow. She wears red steel armor at the end game, same as Teagan. I don't recall if it's medium or heavy, but even a medium set of red steel requires as 28 Strength. Not too bad.
2. Depending on how you sequence your quests and who is in your party, Alistair can lie by omission for most of the game.
3. Grey Wardens are supposed to stay out of politics, unless you're in the Anderfels. As neutral parties dedicated to the good of Thedas above and beyond any single nation, it's not a good idea to put them on thrones.
4. Alistair's backbone or lack thereof varies by playthough. In the Darkspawn Chronicles, it appears that all of the 'dark' choices have been made, suggesting that Morrigan was calling the shots throughout. Also, he fails.
5. Anora definitely does not flee the darkspawn invasion. If Alistair leaves the party, she is with the troops in the field. If she is deposed, she is imprisoned in Denerim. In other cases, it is less clear where she is, but there's no evidence that she runs away. Certainly no one mentions it at the afterparty.
Hardened Alistair makes a perfectly reasonable king. But these 'reasons' are hardly 'without bias.'
good points. I'm not gonna claim my reasons unbiased. As aforementioned, please consider my opinons a seperate post only replying to the thread.
#4
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 18 décembre 2012 - 09:38
Guest_Faerunner_*
Guest_Faerunner_*
-
- Guests
I don't think either Anora or Alistair are objectively better rulers. There is no way for anyone to base his, her, or variations thereof's opinion. Opinions, by their definitions, are based on personal bias. Alistair and Anora both have different strengths, weaknesses, priorities and methods when it comes to governing. Whether you think Alistair or Anora is better just depends on what you value and what you think the country needs more at the moment.
Biased sexist opinion and untrue since Anora actually does lead an army into battle.
Anora never betrays the Warden, except in one of three scenarios. If you are talking about when she gives you away to Ser Cauthrien in Howe's Estate, she was in disguise and stated that she did not want to get caught by Howe's or Loghain's men. If you give her away to Loghain's men, then you betray her first. She does what she has to ensure she does not get recaptured by her father, which is why she needed to be rescued in the first place.
Second scenario, she only turns on you in the Landsmeet if she offers you an alliance that you turn down. She basically says, "I'll support you against my father if you support my bid for the throne" If you refuse to support her, you were never allied with her, so she is under no obligation to support you. What's more, she has a point when she says Fereldan needs a strong, competent, experienced ruler to lead them through the crisis, which she has proven in her five-year reign married to Cailan. If you refuse to support her, she genuinely believes you are a threat to Fereldan's best interest and is telling the truth when she tells the Landsmeet she believes you are a threat to the nation's best interest.
Third scenario, she turns on you in the Landsmeet if you insisted earlier that her father has to be executed. However, she only talks about Loghain's punishment if YOU bring him up first, and only gets put off if YOU insist he has to die. From her perspective, you come across as vindictive, dangerous and blood-thirsty by bringing him up just to insist he has to die, so she's telling the truth when she tells the Landsmeet she considers you a threat to the nation.
As Corker has said, Alistair can lie by omission several times throughout the game. Ask him about his childhood, his mother and Arl Eamon before he is ready, and he becomes the most blatantly evasive truth-"from a certain perspective"-teller in the game.
Grey Wardens are also supposed to be politically neutral. I can barely bring myself to crown him on that basis alone. Orlais also has the highest number of Grey Wardens in Thedas. If anything, Having a Grey Warden on the Fereldan throne would make them feel even more politically sticky and make Orlais feel entitled to push through Fereldan boundaries.
And Alistair shows absolutely no leadership skills during his long years training as a Templar or months as a Grey Warden, nor does he know anything about ruling since he has no leadership experience. This means he would be dependent on the people around him to teach him about governing and decision-making, meaning that whoever instructs him would be the true power behind the throne. This is a recipe for political imbalance since various nobles would be squabbling over who can control the king and who can gain the most out of it.
Much as I detest Loghain, even I can see there is something to his claim of Alistair becoming a puppet king and Eamon trying to be the puppet ruler. Though I think Loghain is a hypocrite since he also uses his daughter's trust in him to reduce her to a puppet queen to power his own regency. Anora eventually catches on and uses every opportunity to fight back though, so give her some credit.
That's like saying one does not need to be accustomed with weapon-holding or hand-to-hand comat to be a good soldier.
Except that Anora leads an army against the darkspawn invasion. You know that speech Alistair gives to boost moral among the soldiers right before the Battle of Denerim? Anora gives the exact same speech if you crown her without him. She's also dressed in heavy armour and her background information reveals that she has been trained in combat, so she's not the push-over you like to depict her as.
IntoTheDarkness wrote...
1. Male ruler is more fit in a state of war. Anora will not lead an army in a battle.
Biased sexist opinion and untrue since Anora actually does lead an army into battle.
2. Alistair lacks cunning, but he does not cheat orlie. A ruler can cheat and lie, as long as those are done in secret. Anora openly betrays the warden putting her own safety above concerns for her allies which is a trait her subjects and feudal lords won't appreicate.
Anora never betrays the Warden, except in one of three scenarios. If you are talking about when she gives you away to Ser Cauthrien in Howe's Estate, she was in disguise and stated that she did not want to get caught by Howe's or Loghain's men. If you give her away to Loghain's men, then you betray her first. She does what she has to ensure she does not get recaptured by her father, which is why she needed to be rescued in the first place.
Second scenario, she only turns on you in the Landsmeet if she offers you an alliance that you turn down. She basically says, "I'll support you against my father if you support my bid for the throne" If you refuse to support her, you were never allied with her, so she is under no obligation to support you. What's more, she has a point when she says Fereldan needs a strong, competent, experienced ruler to lead them through the crisis, which she has proven in her five-year reign married to Cailan. If you refuse to support her, she genuinely believes you are a threat to Fereldan's best interest and is telling the truth when she tells the Landsmeet she believes you are a threat to the nation's best interest.
Third scenario, she turns on you in the Landsmeet if you insisted earlier that her father has to be executed. However, she only talks about Loghain's punishment if YOU bring him up first, and only gets put off if YOU insist he has to die. From her perspective, you come across as vindictive, dangerous and blood-thirsty by bringing him up just to insist he has to die, so she's telling the truth when she tells the Landsmeet she considers you a threat to the nation.
As Corker has said, Alistair can lie by omission several times throughout the game. Ask him about his childhood, his mother and Arl Eamon before he is ready, and he becomes the most blatantly evasive truth-"from a certain perspective"-teller in the game.
3. Alistair is a grey wardon. He is a better ruler both as a symbol and practical warrior to end the blight which is the largest threat in Ferelden. Orlaisian Empire could invade Ferelden ensueing from the blight, and Alistair will deal with war better than Anora.
Grey Wardens are also supposed to be politically neutral. I can barely bring myself to crown him on that basis alone. Orlais also has the highest number of Grey Wardens in Thedas. If anything, Having a Grey Warden on the Fereldan throne would make them feel even more politically sticky and make Orlais feel entitled to push through Fereldan boundaries.
4. It can be argued that Alistair doens't have a backbone, with him deffering decisions to the warden and all. But according to the darkspawn chronicle, it is him who unites Ferelden to fight the blight if the warden had died in the joining. Furthermore, Uber-smartness is not necessary for a good ruler. Decision making is much more important, and Anora is a counter-example of a good decision maker when she proved to be a wimp in front of her father. As far as I know, she will be more credulous if advices from her court concern her own benefits.
And Alistair shows absolutely no leadership skills during his long years training as a Templar or months as a Grey Warden, nor does he know anything about ruling since he has no leadership experience. This means he would be dependent on the people around him to teach him about governing and decision-making, meaning that whoever instructs him would be the true power behind the throne. This is a recipe for political imbalance since various nobles would be squabbling over who can control the king and who can gain the most out of it.
Much as I detest Loghain, even I can see there is something to his claim of Alistair becoming a puppet king and Eamon trying to be the puppet ruler. Though I think Loghain is a hypocrite since he also uses his daughter's trust in him to reduce her to a puppet queen to power his own regency. Anora eventually catches on and uses every opportunity to fight back though, so give her some credit.
5. King is a life-long position. One does not need to be accustomed with court-affair or political sense to be a good king
That's like saying one does not need to be accustomed with weapon-holding or hand-to-hand comat to be a good soldier.
as long as he can learn, especially in times of war in which uniting his subjects is more important than scheming in the back. Alistair does not mind sacrificing himself for the greater good. Anora will probably flee Denerim in Darkspawn invasion. Let's just say that a fleeing monarch is much, much worse than a dead monarch in war.
Except that Anora leads an army against the darkspawn invasion. You know that speech Alistair gives to boost moral among the soldiers right before the Battle of Denerim? Anora gives the exact same speech if you crown her without him. She's also dressed in heavy armour and her background information reveals that she has been trained in combat, so she's not the push-over you like to depict her as.
Modifié par Faerunner, 18 décembre 2012 - 09:47 .
#5
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 04:15
Saibh
-
- Members
- 8 071 messages
From what we're given in the DA series, I can't believe Anora would be considered a good war time ruler.
Sure, betray the Grey Warden whose treaties and favors are what compromises 3/4ths of your army, into a dungeon. Yeah, very clever Anora. Not to mention her lying to Cauthrien was just stupid: how do you know you'll get away, what happens if the Warden dies right then, and do you really think saying that you were being held captive will end less bloody than saying you're being kidnapped? God, the sheer stupidity.
Unfortunately this is the beginning and end of what we see of Anora. If she's a competent ruler, we never see it. Her giving the regency into Loghain certainly doesn't boost my confidences as to her wartime leadership capabilities. Especially because he, in turn, gave the politics over to Howe.
She may have made a good ruler in peacetime in Thedas, when it was safest and easiest, but she's apparently not so good at on-the-spot thinking and long-term tactics.
That said, I don't think Alistair is a really great ruler...but considering the Warden is my character and I would potentially serve as direct adviser, I'm far more inclined to give Alistair the kingship. Especially when she's betrayed the player twice. Let him pick a suitable heir when the time comes.
Sure, betray the Grey Warden whose treaties and favors are what compromises 3/4ths of your army, into a dungeon. Yeah, very clever Anora. Not to mention her lying to Cauthrien was just stupid: how do you know you'll get away, what happens if the Warden dies right then, and do you really think saying that you were being held captive will end less bloody than saying you're being kidnapped? God, the sheer stupidity.
Unfortunately this is the beginning and end of what we see of Anora. If she's a competent ruler, we never see it. Her giving the regency into Loghain certainly doesn't boost my confidences as to her wartime leadership capabilities. Especially because he, in turn, gave the politics over to Howe.
She may have made a good ruler in peacetime in Thedas, when it was safest and easiest, but she's apparently not so good at on-the-spot thinking and long-term tactics.
That said, I don't think Alistair is a really great ruler...but considering the Warden is my character and I would potentially serve as direct adviser, I'm far more inclined to give Alistair the kingship. Especially when she's betrayed the player twice. Let him pick a suitable heir when the time comes.
Modifié par Saibh, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:16 .
#6
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 05:39
dainbramage
-
- Members
- 492 messages
I usually get them to marry. With that said, Anora doesn't really show any competence in-game, while for Alistair it depends whether or not he's hardened. One problem is Alistair having a child given that he's a grey warden.
As for the political ramifications of alistair being a grey warden - in the blight, I'm sure it would be expedient. Wardens are politically neutral in peace, but against a blight will do "whatever it takes" to win. Becoming a king is perfectly justified, at least from the perspective of the wardens. Then in peacetime (or before, if you crown alistair and let loghain live) alistair effectively renounces his ties to the wardens.
But really, I'd say
married > hardened alistair > anora > unhardened alistair
EDIT: Random conspiracy version: Duncan deliberately proposes a failing strategy at Ostagar to result in Cailan's death while keeping Alistair out of the battle, with the intention of placing a grey warden on the throne. Loghain is justified the entire game.
As for the political ramifications of alistair being a grey warden - in the blight, I'm sure it would be expedient. Wardens are politically neutral in peace, but against a blight will do "whatever it takes" to win. Becoming a king is perfectly justified, at least from the perspective of the wardens. Then in peacetime (or before, if you crown alistair and let loghain live) alistair effectively renounces his ties to the wardens.
But really, I'd say
married > hardened alistair > anora > unhardened alistair
EDIT: Random conspiracy version: Duncan deliberately proposes a failing strategy at Ostagar to result in Cailan's death while keeping Alistair out of the battle, with the intention of placing a grey warden on the throne. Loghain is justified the entire game.
Modifié par dainbramage, 19 décembre 2012 - 05:41 .
#7
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 07:16
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 994 messages
Short answer, because I don't have enough time to get too involved at the moment: Objectively, neither is the better ruler. Anora's more fit to handle politics, while Alistair's more fit to handle the populus.
In that regard, the objective answer is: Marry them together.
They'll try their best to handle the things they're not good at, I'm sure. That's why I believe Anora tried to deal with the starvation crisis in the epilogue before she was forced to quell a violent rebellion.
But Anora's inexperience with the populus and Alistair's inexperience with politics makes for them having flaws with reigning solo. Even a hardened Alistair ends up becoming a bit like Robert Baratheon.
Marry them together, while Alistair is hardened, and they begin to help each other grow more competent in their respective areas of inexperience. A married Alistair and Anora will go out into the countryside supervising the reconstruction process and interacting with the commoners, which brings a lot of cheer from the populus.
DAII reinforces that by saying the two of them together has brought for Ferelden to prosper as best it can after the Blight, despite being weakened and facing an imminent second war with Orlais.
Just as much, Alistair will defer to Anora's judgement on political matters and take up the art of governing. He ends up learning a bit, and Anora is shocked about it. In the aftermath of the Blight, she even remarks -- if he's hardened, as far as I know -- that because he seems more determined, he might make a decent king.
Doesn't hurt that his humor is reminiscent of Cailan's -- along with his heart -- which Anora likes a bit.
In that regard, the objective answer is: Marry them together.
They'll try their best to handle the things they're not good at, I'm sure. That's why I believe Anora tried to deal with the starvation crisis in the epilogue before she was forced to quell a violent rebellion.
But Anora's inexperience with the populus and Alistair's inexperience with politics makes for them having flaws with reigning solo. Even a hardened Alistair ends up becoming a bit like Robert Baratheon.
Marry them together, while Alistair is hardened, and they begin to help each other grow more competent in their respective areas of inexperience. A married Alistair and Anora will go out into the countryside supervising the reconstruction process and interacting with the commoners, which brings a lot of cheer from the populus.
DAII reinforces that by saying the two of them together has brought for Ferelden to prosper as best it can after the Blight, despite being weakened and facing an imminent second war with Orlais.
Just as much, Alistair will defer to Anora's judgement on political matters and take up the art of governing. He ends up learning a bit, and Anora is shocked about it. In the aftermath of the Blight, she even remarks -- if he's hardened, as far as I know -- that because he seems more determined, he might make a decent king.
Doesn't hurt that his humor is reminiscent of Cailan's -- along with his heart -- which Anora likes a bit.
#8
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 09:41
IntoTheDarkness
-
- Members
- 1 014 messages
Faerunner wrote...
IntoTheDarkness wrote...
1. Male ruler is more fit in a state of war. Anora will not lead an army in a battle.
Biased sexist opinion and untrue since Anora actually does lead an army into battle.
Aye, but one thing I would like to nitpick.
A male ruler is more suited for war and there is no sexism or bias about it. It's just a fact.
We are not talking about the medieval age, but Dragon Age is loosely based on it. I can even claim that a male ruler is more suited as a ruler in every aspect just because he is male if the game were actually set in the medieval age.
Stating a fact is not equal to having a discriminative perspective.
Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 19 décembre 2012 - 09:42 .
#9
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 10:44
ejoslin
-
- Members
- 11 745 messages
You can't think of a country that had a female ruling during a war? Really?
The warden is leading the armies anyway, whether the warden is male or female.
The warden is leading the armies anyway, whether the warden is male or female.
Modifié par ejoslin, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:45 .
#10
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 10:45
ejoslin
-
- Members
- 11 745 messages
quoted instead of edited.
Modifié par ejoslin, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:45 .
#11
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 10:59
Wulfram
-
- Members
- 18 950 messages
Anora's supposed to be a great ruler but I find the presentation of her in the game doesn't fit - she's too easily brushed aside by Loghain and Howe. And I don't see what's supposed to be so awesome about her ruling of Fereldan beforehand - it's implied she did a good job, but the way the place basically falls apart in the game doesn't really back that up, while the City Elf's life experience isn't exactly awesome under her reign.
I find her decision to execute Alistair highly dubious in a real world medieval political situation, though again I think it was supposed to be the pragmatic call in the minds of the writers.
Alistair, well he's pretty likable. Which is a huge asset for medieval rulership which depends on personal relationships. Despite his Theirin blood he has a valuable commoners perspective on things, allowing him to secure the affection of the least of his people. Unhardened he needs a good person to act as power behind, or beside, the throne - Anora, the Warden or even Eamon can probably serve that role. Hardened, he'll probably do a good job.
I find her decision to execute Alistair highly dubious in a real world medieval political situation, though again I think it was supposed to be the pragmatic call in the minds of the writers.
Alistair, well he's pretty likable. Which is a huge asset for medieval rulership which depends on personal relationships. Despite his Theirin blood he has a valuable commoners perspective on things, allowing him to secure the affection of the least of his people. Unhardened he needs a good person to act as power behind, or beside, the throne - Anora, the Warden or even Eamon can probably serve that role. Hardened, he'll probably do a good job.
Modifié par Wulfram, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:00 .
#12
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 11:11
Ferretinabun
-
- Members
- 2 691 messages
IntoTheDarkness would have a point if he were talking about real life. Female monarchs always had a much tougher time of it than their male counterparts. If they were strong rulers, then they were seen as unwomanly: improper, monstrous, unnatural. If they were submissive as a proper woman should be, they were seen as weak rulers.
Then there is the matter of marriage. A king could marry whoever he liked because the wife was supposed to be subordinate. But what was a queen regnant to do? If she married one of her own countrymen, he would be both her subject (thus supposedly her inferior) and her husband (thus supposedly her superior). Was she then only to choose kings of other countries - men whose status matched her own? If nothing else, foreign spouses to monarchs were rarely popular with the chattering classes.
This does, of course, reflect nothing on the actual ability of women to rule, and much more on the general sexist attitudes and social conventions of ages past. And Ferelden, though given a medieval setting, does seem a place with thoroughly modern sensibilites in terms of race, sexuality and gender equality.
Given all that, and to answer OP's question, I think Anora makes the superior ruler. Doing what's best for the good of the nation, however unsavory, is not the same as being popular or noble. Politics generally tends to be a shady, morally murky world, and I don't think it would be long before Alistair would be manipulated into being someone's puppet. Anora knows how to handle herself.
Then there is the matter of marriage. A king could marry whoever he liked because the wife was supposed to be subordinate. But what was a queen regnant to do? If she married one of her own countrymen, he would be both her subject (thus supposedly her inferior) and her husband (thus supposedly her superior). Was she then only to choose kings of other countries - men whose status matched her own? If nothing else, foreign spouses to monarchs were rarely popular with the chattering classes.
This does, of course, reflect nothing on the actual ability of women to rule, and much more on the general sexist attitudes and social conventions of ages past. And Ferelden, though given a medieval setting, does seem a place with thoroughly modern sensibilites in terms of race, sexuality and gender equality.
Given all that, and to answer OP's question, I think Anora makes the superior ruler. Doing what's best for the good of the nation, however unsavory, is not the same as being popular or noble. Politics generally tends to be a shady, morally murky world, and I don't think it would be long before Alistair would be manipulated into being someone's puppet. Anora knows how to handle herself.
#13
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 11:48
sylvanaerie
-
- Members
- 9 436 messages
Ideally, I think both are about the same. Each has strengths and weaknesses alone they do a competent job (if Alistair is hardened). The most optimal solution (though not on a personal level for either them or a potential warden romancing Alistair) is to marry a hardened Alistair to Anora. He has the ability to reach the people who have no voice in the Landsmeet, Anora is better with the day to day ruling/administration of the country. Both have strengths that complement each other nicely, and those strengths ensure where the other is weaker bolster them, creating a much more stable country.
#14
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 12:08
Monica21
-
- Members
- 5 603 messages
Good Lord. Are you trolling?IntoTheDarkness wrote...
Aye, but one thing I would like to nitpick.
A male ruler is more suited for war and there is no sexism or bias about it. It's just a fact.
We are not talking about the medieval age, but Dragon Age is loosely based on it. I can even claim that a male ruler is more suited as a ruler in every aspect just because he is male if the game were actually set in the medieval age.
Stating a fact is not equal to having a discriminative perspective.
Catherine the Great completed the conquest of southern Russian during the Russo-Turkish wars. (After forcing her husband Peter III to abdicate and later assassinating him because he was a cheater, a jerk, and a terrible war time ruler who really just liked wearing a uniform.)
Elizabeth the First defeated the Spanish Armada in 1588.
Margaret Thatcher successfully sent troops to retake the Falkland Islands.
Those three are just off the top of my head. You can make no argument that female rulers are less suited for war than males, and you need to do some historical research before you even begin to make a claim without evidence.
#15
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 12:30
mousestalker
-
- Members
- 16 945 messages
Alistair is very much the better king. As awesome as Anora is, she would look very silly trying to rock the whole beard and codpiece look. Her appearance is pretty much doomed from the start to remain feminine. Nor would, imho, a Hatsheput style false beard work.
However, Anora is a pretty competent queen as well as a decent ruler (except for elves). When my PC is going for the super happy joy ending, Alistair winds up marrying Anora and you het the best of both. The end cards even say that ushers in a new golden age.
However, Anora is a pretty competent queen as well as a decent ruler (except for elves). When my PC is going for the super happy joy ending, Alistair winds up marrying Anora and you het the best of both. The end cards even say that ushers in a new golden age.
#16
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 01:33
Dabrikishaw
-
- Members
- 3 250 messages
IntoTheDarkness wrote...
Faerunner wrote...
IntoTheDarkness wrote...
1. Male ruler is more fit in a state of war. Anora will not lead an army in a battle.
Biased sexist opinion and untrue since Anora actually does lead an army into battle.
Aye, but one thing I would like to nitpick.
A male ruler is more suited for war and there is no sexism or bias about it. It's just a fact.
We are not talking about the medieval age, but Dragon Age is loosely based on it. I can even claim that a male ruler is more suited as a ruler in every aspect just because he is male if the game were actually set in the medieval age.
Stating a fact is not equal to having a discriminative perspective.
Your fact is wrong, nice try.
#17
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 02:28
IntoTheDarkness
-
- Members
- 1 014 messages
You can try arguing female rulers are as capable to lead a nation in wars as male rulers in the history forum, I'm sure you will find many people who can adjust your views on the topic.
Female rulers can't fight in front and can't lead an army in battles. They mostly nominate a talented male commander to lead an army for them. Unless DA:O makes female models appear as muscular as males, their equal capability in battles are mere game mechanics.
I agree women's roles in DA world is debatable, but in RL female rulers will be less suitable for wars than male rulers and there is no question about it. You are free to claim otherwise in history forum lest we risk going off topic on this thread.
I'm only bringing this point up because Alistair can actually fight with his sword and shield whereas Anora won't be able to do that. So even if females are suited to be a ruler of a nation in war, Anora is not a warrior while Alistair is.
Female rulers can't fight in front and can't lead an army in battles. They mostly nominate a talented male commander to lead an army for them. Unless DA:O makes female models appear as muscular as males, their equal capability in battles are mere game mechanics.
I agree women's roles in DA world is debatable, but in RL female rulers will be less suitable for wars than male rulers and there is no question about it. You are free to claim otherwise in history forum lest we risk going off topic on this thread.
I'm only bringing this point up because Alistair can actually fight with his sword and shield whereas Anora won't be able to do that. So even if females are suited to be a ruler of a nation in war, Anora is not a warrior while Alistair is.
#18
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 02:41
Monica21
-
- Members
- 5 603 messages
You're treading some pretty thin ice there, champ.
A male's willingness or ability to lead troops into battle has zero correlation to a female counterpart's capability to lead in war. A male ruler would often do the exact same thing and simply nominate a commander. "leading" safely from a palace.
And, as has you've been reminded of in this very thread, Anora does lead her army into battle, armored and all.
A male's willingness or ability to lead troops into battle has zero correlation to a female counterpart's capability to lead in war. A male ruler would often do the exact same thing and simply nominate a commander. "leading" safely from a palace.
And, as has you've been reminded of in this very thread, Anora does lead her army into battle, armored and all.
Modifié par Monica21, 20 décembre 2012 - 02:42 .
#19
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 02:49
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
Wow. Ok. In that case Loghain must have been a tremendous fool to have a woman as second in command of the entire Fereldan army. Gees, Cauthrien is so badass she can take down a male PC with ease when you first fight her.
Did you not read what Corker wrote before? Anora knows how to fight. She's with the army at the final siege, in full armour. She's been trained by one of the foremost sword-and-shield warriors in the nation, ie. her father. Your argument that she's not a competent warrior is blatantly wrong.
So you can acknowledge that, or we can just agree you're trolling.
It's not like your thread history doesn't give it away.
Did you not read what Corker wrote before? Anora knows how to fight. She's with the army at the final siege, in full armour. She's been trained by one of the foremost sword-and-shield warriors in the nation, ie. her father. Your argument that she's not a competent warrior is blatantly wrong.
So you can acknowledge that, or we can just agree you're trolling.
It's not like your thread history doesn't give it away.
#20
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 02:52
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 994 messages
IntoTheDarkness wrote...
I'm only bringing this point up because Alistair can actually fight with his sword and shield whereas Anora won't be able to do that
Anora trained in warfare as well as government.
She may not have as much field experience as Alistair, but she does know how to handle herself. And given how she's wearing army and rallies her troops, I'd say she's a decent enough warrior.
You can say Alistair's the better warrior because he has more experience, but to say Anora isn't fit to lead a nation in war or can't be a warrior is erroneous.
Also, it makes you a Qunari. Anaan Esaam Qun.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 décembre 2012 - 02:53 .
#21
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 04:31
IntoTheDarkness
-
- Members
- 1 014 messages
Monica21 wrote...
You're treading some pretty thin ice there, champ.
A male's willingness or ability to lead troops into battle has zero correlation to a female counterpart's capability to lead in war. A male ruler would often do the exact same thing and simply nominate a commander. "leading" safely from a palace.
And, as has you've been reminded of in this very thread, Anora does lead her army into battle, armored and all.
Males have more advantages than females in war because
1. They could fight in battles. This will boost men's morale. Battle of Issus and Battle of Gaugamela were both won because Alaxander the Great charged Persian line with his elite troops whereas Darius III fled the field each time. Many historians believe that if Darius III didn't flee the result would have been different.
2. They could lead tropps into battles. This will prevent any treachery(as opposed to DA:O example, it's extremely unlikely a king is betrayed by a field commander) and it will still boost morale.
3. Female rulers tend to be looked down by other monarchs no matter how capable. This is inevitable in patriarchal society. It is evident as many historical female rulers shared their power with their husband to stabilize their reign whereas male rulers ruled on their own in most cases.
Are you saying in RL male rulers have absolutely no advantage over female rulers in leading a nation in war? Not even a little?
And yes, I wasn't aware Anora actually does fight as Alistair would. I've only seen her cheap political maneuvering and pitiful influence as she let Howe and her father loose, unable to stop neither the civil war or the darkspawn before I chose Alistair to be crowned.
I stand corrected for that matter. However, I still think male rulers are better suited for war in real life. And I'm regretting I didn't highlight 'please consider this a seperate post' and 'I don't wanna defend my views agasint everyone' lines.
Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 20 décembre 2012 - 04:35 .
#22
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 05:17
IntoTheDarkness
-
- Members
- 1 014 messages
Monica21 wrote...
You're treading some pretty thin ice there, champ.
A male's willingness or ability to lead troops into battle has zero correlation to a female counterpart's capability to lead in war. A male ruler would often do the exact same thing and simply nominate a commander. "leading" safely from a palace.
And, as has you've been reminded of in this very thread, Anora does lead her army into battle, armored and all.
I've read a similar discussion in another thread and I will paraphrase one of comments I agree with.
1. War's driving force are soldiers and the vast majority of them are male. It makes 'culture of war' masculine. And strategem is the very core of this culture.
2. Strategem is basically a trade based on rationality. Materials of this trade are resource and time.
3. Females had not been a part of this trade until very recently. Before modern ages females were its materials rather than its main agents.
War is an extension of politics and historically there had been fewer female politicians than males. It's not because of one's capability but because the opponent party won't agree to trade with them. Again, culture of war is very masculine in its nature. Nominating the right person in the right position requires fundamental understanding of this masculine culture. It's hard to imagine a female properly evaluating someone like George Smith Patton who employs dirty jokes to boost morale and often seem reckless in giving orders to charge.
Furthermore, war is very mathmatical. Since it's rather practical than theoratical, you could think of chess. There has been no dominent female chess champion before Susan Polgar.
Being proficient at war is about understanding and stuying human psychology. Since these 'humans' are mostly male in war, males have advantages in that respect.
Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 20 décembre 2012 - 05:24 .
#23
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 06:32
Nefla
-
- Members
- 7 733 messages
I think with more experience , hardened Alistair would be the best ruler. He genuinely cares for people and would make decisions that benefit his kingdom and not just himself. Hardened Alistair wont let other people manipulate or bully him, there wouldn't really be a fear of a weak puppet ruler. Anora has shown that she is selfish, scheming, and weak. She just lets her father take over even though she's queen, and even though she knows right off the bat he's a traitor who killed her husband. She sits there in a pretty dress in her palace and does nothing to help her people being ravaged by the blight. Unhardened Alistair is the worst choice because even though his heart is for the people, he's easily controlled and manipulated.
#24
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 07:03
Riverdaleswhiteflash
-
- Members
- 7 951 messages
IntoTheDarkness wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
You're treading some pretty thin ice there, champ.
A male's willingness or ability to lead troops into battle has zero correlation to a female counterpart's capability to lead in war. A male ruler would often do the exact same thing and simply nominate a commander. "leading" safely from a palace.
And, as has you've been reminded of in this very thread, Anora does lead her army into battle, armored and all.
Males have more advantages than females in war because
1. They could fight in battles. This will boost men's morale. Battle of Issus and Battle of Gaugamela were both won because Alaxander the Great charged Persian line with his elite troops whereas Darius III fled the field each time. Many historians believe that if Darius III didn't flee the result would have been different.
2. They could lead tropps into battles. This will prevent any treachery(as opposed to DA:O example, it's extremely unlikely a king is betrayed by a field commander) and it will still boost morale.
Both of these also open up the possibility that an enemy will get in a lucky shot accidentally. Or not so accidentally, if we're dealing with darkspawn or with humans who gain more politically by the king dying than by the king being a prisoner. Not to mention that if someone does betray the king in the middle of a battle, they're more likely to get away with it.
3. Female rulers tend to be looked down by other monarchs no matter how capable. This is inevitable in patriarchal society. It is evident as many historical female rulers shared their power with their husband to stabilize their reign whereas male rulers ruled on their own in most cases.
Are you saying in RL male rulers have absolutely no advantage over female rulers in leading a nation in war? Not even a little?
I think they do, it's just that they're incredibly slight and mostly revolve around sexist assumptions about said rulers. A really skilled woman can overcome those, and a really dumb man can cancel them out. We've seen that Anora qualifies for the former; both from the Codex and from the way her word carries weight with the Landsmeet. Alistair does not qualify as the latter, if he's hardened, but Anora's probably going to live longer what with being relatively young and not tainted.
And yes, I wasn't aware Anora actually does fight as Alistair would. I've only seen her cheap political maneuvering and pitiful influence as she let Howe and her father loose, unable to stop neither the civil war or the darkspawn before I chose Alistair to be crowned.
I stand corrected for that matter. However, I still think male rulers are better suited for war in real life. And I'm regretting I didn't highlight 'please consider this a seperate post' and 'I don't wanna defend my views agasint everyone' lines.
There are women who can handle ruling a country, even through war, in real life. Maybe it would help to consider Anora as one of them?
Also, whether or not this is a separate post, you really should have expected replies to it.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 décembre 2012 - 07:04 .
#25
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 10:54
Guest_Faerunner_*
Guest_Faerunner_*
-
- Guests
It seems to me that IntoTheDarkness is judging with extreme bias. So much for the title.
