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[Argolas]

Seems like the cereal murder case claimed another victim.

[WhiteKnyght]

Demonique wrote...

 In Mass Effect: Deception (a novel which also retcons Gillian Grayson's autism and Hendel's homosexuality) Kai Leng breaks into Anderson's apartment and eats his cereal and later kills Gillian with a sharpened toothbrush

There's also something involving pissing in a vase

Read Ascension: GIllian was normal when she was young. Autism symptoms manifest before a child is three years old(look it up). And when she got away from Jiro and Paul, her condition began improving.  She was never autistic dude. It was a side effect to the high doses of strange drugs Cerberus was giving her.

Also as for Hendel: One line in one part of the novel doesn't constitute heterosexuality. Anderson and Hendel were looking at Asari dancers, and there is a running joke in the series much older than Hendel's character where EVERYBODY is attracted to the Asari. Except for Kai Leng, because he's a hateful b*tch. His moment in Deception was because he was undercover, he had to be convincing.

[GreyLycanTrope]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

- Ever think maybe Leng's ex-gf might have slipped him one when she broke him out and revealed herself to him?

His girlfirend tired to bust him out, she never game him the Shive during any of those scene nor do I recall him having it at any given point during the attempted escape. The ex-girlfriend is great too, she blows Lengs cover and get's him captured for absolutley no reason only to try and help him escape later. Wat?

- Also did you even pay attention in Ascension at all? In Paul Grayson's narratives, Gillian was normal when she was young, and later in the novel, her condition begins to improve aboard the Flotilla because she's not being doped up by Cerberus all the time. Which is why Paul let her stay there. The meaning is that Gillians condition is the fault of Cerberus, she might not have even truly been autistic, just suffering the side effects of years of strange drugs. If you look on wiki it says " The diagnostic criteria require that symptoms become apparent before a child is three years old." Gillian was more than three years old IIRC when her symptoms manifested.

That's an assumption on your part, at no point was Gillian said to be normal. Cerberus' actions certainly enhanced her autistic condition but at no point is it stated that they gave her autism.

- Also Hendel, if you even paid attention in Deception, you'd see that was explained. When Hendel was in the Alliance, when he was head of security at Grissom Academy, and when he was taking care of Gillian on the Idenna, he had something to focus on - to keep himself straight. Some people are like that, when they work, they're committed, when they have nothing, they crash and burn. That was how Hendel's character was developed.

Hendel also suddenly stops being gay in Deception.

- Also "not so fast and illogically?" Deception is *three years later* than Ascension, the last time you saw Hendel or Gillian.

Is it? Gillian is 18 in the novel. 13+3=18? Illogical as in we're breaking the space time continuum here. Again Hendel is now hetero.

Also without comment from Drew Karpyshyn on Deception, you cant really say if these are errors in any way. He might have left some directions for how to write the novel and how to handle the characters.

Like Kai Leng now finding aliens to be physically attractive? I'd say it's safe to assume Deitz took at least a few liberties after skimming over a summary of the story and not paying attention to or getting the fine details. Hence humans on the Batarian homeworld.

Plus there were some errors in Retribution as well. If you noticed, when Anderson told Kahlee about the Reapers, they were news to her, even though her entire reason for being taken to the Quarian flotilla was so they could get her opinion on them. They even used the word "Reaper" in regards to Sovereign.

Kahlee didn't know anything about the the Reapers past what she heard on the news, the Reapers had been publicly dissmissed, Soveriegn was offically a Geth ship. She was asked to come to the fleet because she knew a few things about AI's and had a connection to Saren, the Quarians assumed she knew something about the Reapers but she herself expressed that she didn't know anything about them.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 décembre 2012 - 03:35 .

[fiendishchicken]

Grey Nayr has no idea what he's talking about. I'm reading his stuff. It goes against established canon in every way.

[WhiteKnyght]

Greylycantrope wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
- Also did you even pay attention in Ascension at all? In Paul Grayson's narratives, Gillian was normal when she was young, and later in the novel, her condition begins to improve aboard the Flotilla because she's not being doped up by Cerberus all the time. Which is why Paul let her stay there. The meaning is that Gillians condition is the fault of Cerberus, she might not have even truly been autistic, just suffering the side effects of years of strange drugs. If you look on wiki it says " The diagnostic criteria require that symptoms become apparent before a child is three years old." Gillian was more than three years old IIRC when her symptoms manifested.

That's an assumption on your part, at no point was Gillian said to be normal. Cerberus' actions certainly enhanced her autistic condition but at no point is it stated that they gave her autism.

Incorrect, read the novel. It specifically says that GIllian was normal when she was a little girl.

Mass Effect: Ascension; Page 69, Paragraph four-five.

     It was easy in the beginning. Gillian seemed like any other normal young girl, Every few months she was visited by Cerberus experts; taking blood samples and alpha-wave readings; checking her health; testing her reflexes and responses. But even with all the doctors, Gillian had been a happy, healthy child.
     Her symptoms began to manifest sometime between the ages of three and four. An unnamed dissociative disorder. Easy to diagnose but difficult to treat. Not that they hadn't tried, unleashing a barrage of drug and behavior therapies on the young girl. Yet their efforts had been in vain. Each year she grew more distant, more closed off. Trapped inside her own mind.

Feel free to check for yourself, that's right from the novel

Autism manifests before you turn age 3, not after. Also only once in the novel is she referred to as autistic, and that's by Gillian herself(who may not have the full understanding of her condition and assumed it)

Any other times, they never name her disease and is specifically referred to as unknown. Even though Autism Spectrum Disorder has been known since the twentieth century and this is the late twenty-second century in Mass Effect. In Mass Effect's lore, medical science has progressed so far that they've cured cancer(Read the narrative in Retribution about the Illusive Man's smoking habits) and increased the average human lifespan to 150 years. And you're gonna tell me they cant diagnose autism even though we can do it now in real life. Her condition is not autism.

And the fact is that once Gillian is away from the drugs, she begins improving, slowly but steadily. Meaning it was the drugs the whole damn time.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[fiendishchicken]

Grey Nayr, stop.

Gillian is autistic. It's established pretty fast in Ascension. Deal with it.

[WhiteKnyght]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Grey Nayr, stop.

Gillian is autistic. It's established pretty fast in Ascension. Deal with it.

Don't tell me what to do. I posted that quote directly from the novel. The word "autistic" rarely appears in the novel. Most of the time, whenever Kahlee, Grayson, or even The Illusive Man himself they just refer to her as having "a personality disorder" or a "condition.

The truth is there in black and white, i posted it. Either look it up or shut up. I know my facts and I have the novel right beside me to prove it.

I've read all the novels, all the comics, played all the games and all the DLC for the games(except Pinnalce Station,) and read the codex. Don't question my knowledge of the lore

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Someone With Mass]

You do know autism can also be a dissociative disorder from a social perspective, right?

Also, Gillian seemed rather spot on with her facts, so I'd take her word for it.

[WhiteKnyght]

Someone With Mass wrote...

You do know autism can also be a dissociative disorder from a social perspective, right?

Also, Gillian seemed rather spot on with her facts, so I'd take her word for it.

Well I'd think her father and author would know better. And their narrative says it is an "unnamed" disorder. Autism is clearly not unnamed,

Also consider the medical advancements in the last 200 years in Mass Effect. They cured cancer, they can grow new organs and limbs from cloned tissue, along with numerous other breathroughs that lengthed a humans lifespan to twice as long as it is today. Treating autism doesn't seem like it should be stuck in the twentieth century.

Also look at David Archer. He wasn't receiving treatment during the memories shown in Overlord and was displaying behavior which fit Autism to the letter, just as his brother said. But when you see him at Grissom Academy, after being treated post-release from Cerberus, his behavior improved dramatically.

Yet Grissom Academy considered sending Gillian home because of her condition. They could treat David, but not her. You have to ask why.

[Islandrockzor]

@Grey: Autism is commonly as a broad term to describe a wide array of different, more specific disorders, that express themselves in some similiar ways.

[fiendishchicken]

I am questioning your knowledge of the lore. I'm also questioning your knowledge of autism.

It's also funny to see your nerd rage at that. 

But seriously, your defending Deception. Even BW has admitted it's garbage.

*edit. And I played Pinnacle Station too. I know things you don't know. You fail as a fanboy. 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:46 .

[JamesFaith]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

You do know autism can also be a dissociative disorder from a social perspective, right?

Also, Gillian seemed rather spot on with her facts, so I'd take her word for it.

Well I'd think her father and author would know better. And their narrative says it is an "unnamed" disorder. Autism is clearly not unnamed,

Well, this is also directly from book:

... Even among remarkable childern of the Ascension project, Gillian was special. At age three she had been diagnosed with a mild form of high-functioning autism; it had almost caused the board to reject her application to Academy.

Modifié par JamesFaith, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[Someone With Mass]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Well I'd think her father and author would know better. And their narrative says it is an "unnamed" disorder. Autism is clearly not unnamed,

Also consider the medical advancements in the last 200 years in Mass Effect. They cured cancer, they can grow new organs and limbs from cloned tissue, along with numerous other breathroughs that lengthed a humans lifespan to twice as long as it is today. Treating autism doesn't seem like it should be stuck in the twentieth century.

Also look at David Archer. He wasn't receiving treatment during the memories shown in Overlord and was displaying behavior which fit Autism to the letter, just as his brother said. But when you see him at Grissom Academy, after being treated post-release from Cerberus, his behavior improved dramatically.

Yet Grissom Academy considered sending Gillian home because of her condition. They could treat David, but not her. You have to ask why.

Curing cancer is something we've done today. It's making sure the cure isn't killing the healthy cells that's the problem.

I'd imagine that since the human mind is quite complex and unless human experimentation that jeopardizes the integrity of the mind is something legal in Mass Effect, something like figuring out how autism and its different versions works takes its time.

Edit:

JamesFaith wrote...

Well, this is also directly from book:

... Even among remarkable childern of the Ascension project, Gillian was special. At age three she had been diagnosed with a mild form of high-functioning autism; it had almost caused the board to reject her application to Academy.

Well, there you go.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 décembre 2012 - 04:55 .

[JamesFaith]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


- Ever think maybe Leng's ex-gf might have slipped him one when she broke him out and revealed herself to him?

- Also Hendel, if you even paid attention in Deception, you'd see that was explained. When Hendel was in the Alliance, when he was head of security at Grissom Academy, and when he was taking care of Gillian on the Idenna, he had something to focus on - to keep himself straight. Some people are like that, when they work, they're committed, when they have nothing, they crash and burn. That was how Hendel's character was developed.

- Also "not so fast and illogically?" Deception is *three years later* than Ascension, the last time you saw Hendel or Gillian.

His ex Kim first reveal herself minutes before escape. So no, she can't be source of toothbrush.

Hendel was a soldier and searching for Gillian was a mission. He definitelky wouldn't drunk when he need to be focus. Such change needs more weeks then days, this I mean by too fast change.

[fiendishchicken]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

- Also "not so fast and illogically?" Deception is *three years later* than Ascension, the last time you saw Hendel or Gillian.

Which is why when Gillian is 12 in Ascension, 3 years later in Deception she's 18?

[GreyLycanTrope]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

*snips*
    Gillian seemed like any other normal young girl, Every few months she was visited by Cerberus experts; taking blood samples and alpha-wave readings; checking her health; testing her reflexes and responses. But even with all the doctors, Gillian had been a happy, healthy child.
     Her symptoms began to manifest sometime between the ages of three and four. An unnamed dissociative disorder. Easy to diagnose but difficult to treat. Not that they hadn't tried, unleashing a barrage of drug and behavior therapies on the young girl. Yet their efforts had been in vain. Each year she grew more distant, more closed off. Trapped inside her own mind.

In reference to the the bolded parts:
-The autistic can still seem normal, symptoms are missed all the time, which makes diagnosis difficult a times.
-People with autism can't be healthy and happy? Last I checked it affected social interaction to variing degrees, Gillians is quite happy and healthy, she just has hard time interacting with people.
-Unnamed because the symptoms were being worsened by the drugs Cerberus gave her making a definitive diagnosis of her condition hard if not impossible. This doesn't mean the drugs were the root cause of her autism, simply that they worsened them.

Autism manifests before you turn age 3, not after. Also only once in the novel is she referred to as autistic, and that's by Gillian herself(who may not have the full understanding of her condition and assumed it)
*snips everywhere*
And you're gonna tell me they cant diagnose autism even though we can do it now in real life. Her condition is not autism.

I'm going to tell you that using current standards as definitive our research on autism being in it's infancy means you don't understand how medical research works. A 2009 study suggests the cut the the 3 year being the cut off for dignosis should be infact replaced with a 5.7 years cut off. Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19318992?dopt=Abstract
Research is still ongoing, and medical dignosis aren't always that clear cut, even in the future.

[GreyLycanTrope]

fiendishchicken wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

- Also "not so fast and illogically?" Deception is *three years later* than Ascension, the last time you saw Hendel or Gillian.

Which is why when Gillian is 12 in Ascension, 3 years later in Deception she's 18?

Know what else? Last time Nick and Gillain saw each other she biotically slamed him into a hospital bed because he spilled her milk. Next time they see each other in Deception  they're best friends.

[Islandrockzor]

Greylycantrope wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

*snips*
    Gillian seemed like any other normal young girl, Every few months she was visited by Cerberus experts; taking blood samples and alpha-wave readings; checking her health; testing her reflexes and responses. But even with all the doctors, Gillian had been a happy, healthy child.
     Her symptoms began to manifest sometime between the ages of three and four. An unnamed dissociative disorder. Easy to diagnose but difficult to treat. Not that they hadn't tried, unleashing a barrage of drug and behavior therapies on the young girl. Yet their efforts had been in vain. Each year she grew more distant, more closed off. Trapped inside her own mind.

In reference to the the bolded parts:
-The autistic can still seem normal, symptoms are missed all the time, which makes diagnosis difficult a times.
-People with autism can't be healthy and happy? Last I checked it affected social interaction to variing degrees, Gillians is quite happy and healthy, she just has hard time interacting with people.
-Unnamed because the symptoms were being worsened by the drugs Cerberus gave her making a definitive diagnosis of her condition hard if not impossible. This doesn't mean the drugs were the root cause of her autism, simply that they worsened them.

Autism manifests before you turn age 3, not after. Also only once in the novel is she referred to as autistic, and that's by Gillian herself(who may not have the full understanding of her condition and assumed it)
*snips everywhere*
And you're gonna tell me they cant diagnose autism even though we can do it now in real life. Her condition is not autism.

I'm going to tell you that using current standards as definitive our research on autism being in it's infancy means you don't understand how medical research works. A 2009 study suggests the cut the the 3 year being the cut off for dignosis should be infact replaced with a 5.7 years cut off. Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19318992?dopt=Abstract
Research is still ongoing, and medical dignosis aren't always that clear cut, even in the future.

In fact, I know a few (a few, not many, but still some) people with autism that only got diagnosed after growing 20-30 years old.

[mrs_anomaly]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Could someone fill me in on this? I'm hopefully lost.

He's really into Cryptonomicon. 

[Grubas]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lokiwithrope wrote...
Seriously? That's... kinda hardcore.

Given the context of the story, it's really not.

Yeah, that rage comic? 100% accurate. I have no idea how that book made it past quality control, much less GOT PRAISED by Chris Priestly. How the frell?!

Chriss Priestley? 

Casey Hudson himself read and approved.
"Finished my final review of the #MassEffect Deception novel. A really fun lead-in to #ME3! Kai Leng is a badass. January 31 release."

[Kabooooom]

And aside from the few lore errors, he still told an interesting story. I
read Deception faster than I read Revelation, Ascension, or
Retribution.

lol what.

docs.google.com/a/kotaku.com/document/d/1XBpMF3ONlI308D9IGG8KICBHfWKU0sXh0ntukv-_cmo/preview

[Animositisomina]

Grubas wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lokiwithrope wrote...
Seriously? That's... kinda hardcore.

Given the context of the story, it's really not.

Yeah, that rage comic? 100% accurate. I have no idea how that book made it past quality control, much less GOT PRAISED by Chris Priestly. How the frell?!

Chriss Priestley? 

Casey Hudson himself read and approved.
"Finished my final review of the #MassEffect Deception novel. A really fun lead-in to #ME3! Kai Leng is a badass. January 31 release."

I shall repeat myself: Do you honestly expect a BioWare employee to come out and bash one of their own products?

[JamesFaith]

Animositisomina wrote...

I shall repeat myself: Do you honestly expect a BioWare employee to come out and bash one of their own products?

Or read more then first two chapters - where Kai Leng still have some bad-assing mojo, which will soon disseaper - when he is lead writter in the middle of final works of ME3? 

[WhiteKnyght]

Kabooooom wrote...

And aside from the few lore errors, he still told an interesting story. I
read Deception faster than I read Revelation, Ascension, or
Retribution.

lol what.

docs.google.com/a/kotaku.com/document/d/1XBpMF3ONlI308D9IGG8KICBHfWKU0sXh0ntukv-_cmo/preview

I read that, like three times before I actually read Mass Effect: Deception.

Most of it is nitpicky crap and closed mindedness. The only errors worth paying any attention to were the fact that Gillian and Nick were now 18 instead of 15. I guess Dietz doesn't like killing children in his books, so he made them adults.

GIllian's condition was worsened by cerberus. And in the end of Ascension, the reader is left off with the belief that GIllian will improve being away from Cerberus, and aboard the flotilla. How much she'll improve was never specified, she could easily make a total recovery because they never stated just how badly Cerberus was worsening the condition.

Hendel ogling an Asari was like one line. Not to mention there's a running joke in the series about how EVERYBODY finds the Asari attractive. Asari are mono-gender, male and female mean nothing, as per Liara's words in ME1.

Biotics being rated by levels is actually something I think should have been in the series the whole time. Every type of ability has a form of classification so people can assume how good you are at something.

Also there being a currency that is alternate from credits makes a lot more sense than the way the games do it. Every credit transfer can be traced and tracked, so that pirates and criminals would use it seems like self-incrimination.

Chora's Den being open: Deception takes place after ME2 when Miranda said they never reopened. The space is still there on the citadel, so it isn't impossible that someone could reopen it. Maybe Fist himself if you/Wrex didn't kill him.

Also the Dark Star Lounge being described wrong. Again, after ME2. DSL is never seen again or even mentioned post-ME2. So it could have been bought, renovated, and restyled into what he described it as.

Asari being described as Asexual. Drew Karpyshyn used the same description in Mass Effect: Revelation. It's arguably true, as the Asari don't use sex to reproduce, they meld nervous systems. Sex is about intimacy/fun to them.

The description of the quarians suits is open for interpretation. I see several parts of their suits that could be made of leather or at least the alien equivalents. And the suits do fasten together. If you notice, Tali never mentioned a Zipper. She has to be able to remove parts of the suit to make repairs or treat wounds without compromising her health. So it being made of several parts(the definition of the world "motley") that assemble together is common sense.

Also the Quarians maintaining a warehouse. Again, Deception is after ME2. Things can change, the Quarians may have decided Omega was a good place to get salvage for parts for the fleet.

The council saying "No" to a Quarian embassy: If you noticed, the Quarians are prejudiced against by nearly every race in the galaxy. Even more than humanity because they unleashed the Geth. Any reasons given in Deception are excuses, not the actual reasons.  Or did you miss Lia'Vael being railroaded as a vagrant by C-Sec in ME2?

Kai Leng being N6: That's a typo that the editors didn't catch, good grief you people are petty.

Anderson being employed by the Council: While he did quit in Retribution, it's very reasonable that he would take the job back to try and persuade the Council. After all, he did promise Shepard he'd do everything he could to stop the Reapers.

"The surface of Omega": I believe I saw this description used somewhere in Ascension or Retribution as well. I'd have to skim it to find the page and line number. But I'm fairly certain it's there.

Omega's Eezo: Funny, there seemed to be a lot of eezo in Mass Effect 3: Omega. You go through a mine in the game and Aria gives you a lot of it as a war asset worth 300 points.

Nick's description of Leng to Kahee: For one, Nick never had any idea that Kahlee knew Leng aside from the lie Leng told him, which he probably discounted after he ended up shot in the gut. Also in Retribution, Leng introduced himself to Nick as "Steve." A wetworker usually never gives his real identity when working.

I don't feel like going into every discrepancy, but you should get the point.