Modifié par Faust1979, 19 décembre 2012 - 06:40 .
Does Mordin always die when you have your squad hold the door?
Débuté par
Faust1979
, déc. 19 2012 06:40
#1
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 06:40
Faust1979
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I have played this game a dozen times and have never successfully beaten the game without losing someone. Mordin always seems to be the one to die even though I have full squad support and I think I make the right decisions.
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#2
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 07:11
PsiFive
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No, though if a single death is going to happen it's highly likely to be Mordin as he's very high up on the 'to die' list. You can keep him alive by sending him back to the Normandy as crew escort but if you've currently been sending Tali, Kasumi or Jack back to the ship as escort I'm pretty certain you'll just lose one of them instead, most likely Tali all things being equal.
Without knowing more it's hard to be sure about it but assuming that you've still got the entire team at this point and that everyone is still loyal to Shepard I think it's probably a problem with your final selections. Of the 12 people you have to choose from you're taking 2 with you and have the option of sending 1 to escort Dr Chakwas and Normandy survivors, which you need to do if you want Chakwas and the rest to live. So assuming you're down to 9 in your Hold The Line team they need to be the right 9.
Big hitters, fighting wise, are essential here or you will lose one or more from the team. I won't go into how the game does the calculations (here if you're interested) but in short all the people in that team have a defensive score assigned to them, and very simply the larger the combined score of the whole 9 person team the less likely you are to lose anyone. The three people with the biggest score are Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed, and as a rule of thumb at least two of them need to be holding that door, though IMO there's little reason not to have all three of them in that team. It actually doesn't matter who you send back to the ship to escort Chakwas and survivors - as long as you send someone the crew will survive, so you might as well send someone with one of the weakest defensive scores to minimise the effect on the Hold team. The weakest four are, as you may have guessed from what I said above, Mordin, Tali, Kasumi and Jack (the remainder of the team, Legion, Samara (or Morinth if you let Samara die on Omega), Thane, Miranda and Jacob are all of a medium strength score).
So going from that and without even referring to the calculations in the other thread you can already see that the worst thing you can do is to take Grunt, Garrus and Zaeed all out of the team by taking two of them with you to fight the baby reaper and send the other one back to the Normandy. Converserly the toughest team with the highest score is achieved by leaving one of Jack, Mordin, Tali and Kasumi in the Hold team, sending another one with the Normandy crew and taking the remaining two with you for the final fight. If everyone is loyal and you've had no other losses to that point I promise that everyone will survive - I've played that combination several times with zero deaths, and on paper the defensive score of the Hold team is way more than it needs to be to ensure no losses. If you want to experiment a bit more to give yourself greater freedom over who to take then check out the thread I linked to for how the Suicide Mission death system actually works. It's actually not all that complex and there's a really useful flow chart there that makes it even easier.
Good luck.
Without knowing more it's hard to be sure about it but assuming that you've still got the entire team at this point and that everyone is still loyal to Shepard I think it's probably a problem with your final selections. Of the 12 people you have to choose from you're taking 2 with you and have the option of sending 1 to escort Dr Chakwas and Normandy survivors, which you need to do if you want Chakwas and the rest to live. So assuming you're down to 9 in your Hold The Line team they need to be the right 9.
Big hitters, fighting wise, are essential here or you will lose one or more from the team. I won't go into how the game does the calculations (here if you're interested) but in short all the people in that team have a defensive score assigned to them, and very simply the larger the combined score of the whole 9 person team the less likely you are to lose anyone. The three people with the biggest score are Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed, and as a rule of thumb at least two of them need to be holding that door, though IMO there's little reason not to have all three of them in that team. It actually doesn't matter who you send back to the ship to escort Chakwas and survivors - as long as you send someone the crew will survive, so you might as well send someone with one of the weakest defensive scores to minimise the effect on the Hold team. The weakest four are, as you may have guessed from what I said above, Mordin, Tali, Kasumi and Jack (the remainder of the team, Legion, Samara (or Morinth if you let Samara die on Omega), Thane, Miranda and Jacob are all of a medium strength score).
So going from that and without even referring to the calculations in the other thread you can already see that the worst thing you can do is to take Grunt, Garrus and Zaeed all out of the team by taking two of them with you to fight the baby reaper and send the other one back to the Normandy. Converserly the toughest team with the highest score is achieved by leaving one of Jack, Mordin, Tali and Kasumi in the Hold team, sending another one with the Normandy crew and taking the remaining two with you for the final fight. If everyone is loyal and you've had no other losses to that point I promise that everyone will survive - I've played that combination several times with zero deaths, and on paper the defensive score of the Hold team is way more than it needs to be to ensure no losses. If you want to experiment a bit more to give yourself greater freedom over who to take then check out the thread I linked to for how the Suicide Mission death system actually works. It's actually not all that complex and there's a really useful flow chart there that makes it even easier.
Good luck.
Modifié par PsiFive, 19 décembre 2012 - 07:11 .
#3
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 08:27
Yate
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I think of it this way:
Assuming everyone's loyal, you have three positives and four negatives on your squad. The rest are neutrals.
The positives are Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed.
The negatives are Jack, Mordin, Tali, and Kasumi.
So by default, you have more negatives than positives, and I believe that's what causes Mordin to die for so many people.
To fix this, you need to get rid of a negative somewhere along the line. Then you have an equal number of positives and negatives, and you are safe. There are four ways to do this:
a) Not recruit them in the first place.
Have them die before the final stand.
If you want your whole team to survive, then you'll have to:
c) Send a negative back with the crew.
d) Take a negative with you to the end boss.
Of course, if you use a positive for the escort or final boss, you'll need to send away two negatives to make up for it.
Things get messier if you have unloyals. An unloyal neutral counts as a negative, and unloyals will take precedence for deaths. So if you have, say, Jacob unloyal with too many negatives in the group, he will die instead of Mordin.
Assuming everyone's loyal, you have three positives and four negatives on your squad. The rest are neutrals.
The positives are Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed.
The negatives are Jack, Mordin, Tali, and Kasumi.
So by default, you have more negatives than positives, and I believe that's what causes Mordin to die for so many people.
To fix this, you need to get rid of a negative somewhere along the line. Then you have an equal number of positives and negatives, and you are safe. There are four ways to do this:
a) Not recruit them in the first place.
Have them die before the final stand.If you want your whole team to survive, then you'll have to:
c) Send a negative back with the crew.
d) Take a negative with you to the end boss.
Of course, if you use a positive for the escort or final boss, you'll need to send away two negatives to make up for it.
Things get messier if you have unloyals. An unloyal neutral counts as a negative, and unloyals will take precedence for deaths. So if you have, say, Jacob unloyal with too many negatives in the group, he will die instead of Mordin.
#4
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 08:33
Yate
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Also: the death order is not the same as the hold the line score. For example, Thane is one of the last to die, but he's only a neutral, not a positive.
Anyways, the TL; DR is: send Jack/Kasumi/Mordin/Tali to escort the crew and everything's peachy. (I recommend Kasumi as she's pretty useless after the tech specialist bit of the mission.)
Anyways, the TL; DR is: send Jack/Kasumi/Mordin/Tali to escort the crew and everything's peachy. (I recommend Kasumi as she's pretty useless after the tech specialist bit of the mission.)
#5
Posté 19 décembre 2012 - 08:58
Faust1979
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Thanks both of you! I'll keep all this in mind next time I play
#6
Posté 20 décembre 2012 - 06:35
PsiFive
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Bear in mind also that you can't not recruit some people, and if we're talking about the low defensive score (or negative to use your term) people there's no getting around recruiting Mordin and Jack as they're in the first batch of recruite and you can't even get the Horizon mission until that first batch is on board. So at best you can not recruit (or allow to die on approaching the base if you've set the story up right) Tali and Kasumi in that low scoring batch. The difference that makes on the team is fairly marginal as long as the big hitters, Zaeed, Grunt and Garrus are all in it.Yate wrote...
There are four ways to do this:
a) Not recruit them in the first place.
The OP doesn't say but I wonder if Shepard in this case is a Vanguard or one of the caster classes and so has picked a team who can provide assault rifle fire. If so then it needs to be remembered that 3 of the 4 AR users are the big guns you need to keep in the Hold team. If you want an assault rifle along in the final fight you should take Samara (or Morinth if you killed Samara) and maybe one of the other three, though that's dependant on other factors. Personally if I was in doubt I'd go with just Samara and live with the bulk of the rest of the firepower being SMGs. Let's face it, if you're playing an Adept or Engineer you're going to be casting a lot anyhow.
#7
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:24
ViciousCargo
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Strange. I've never lost Mordin. Miranda and Jack I have lost countless times, but that's because I was forced to choose between the two. If you leave Mordin to defend along with the others you need to leave behind Grunt and Thane. They are considered strong tanks. I think Garrus too, but I've taken Garrus to fight the human-reaper and never lost Mordin.
#8
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 02:11
PsiFive
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Thane is not one of the tanks. His score is 1 point for non-loyal and 2 for loyal, versus 3 for non-loyal and 4 for loyal for each of Zaeed, Garrus and Grunt. But the game does give the impression that Thane is one of the heavy mob because he's often the person seen in radio communication with Shepard.ViciousCargo wrote...
Strange. I've never lost Mordin. Miranda and Jack I have lost countless times, but that's because I was forced to choose between the two. If you leave Mordin to defend along with the others you need to leave behind Grunt and Thane. They are considered strong tanks. I think Garrus too, but I've taken Garrus to fight the human-reaper and never lost Mordin.
Modifié par PsiFive, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:34 .
#9
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 02:17
ViciousCargo
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Hmm, thought Thane was a tank. Oh well, guess he can go back to the black lagoon where he belongs.
#10
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 02:34
PsiFive
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I think lots like him and see him as a bit of a badass, but his SM score just isn't any higher than Jacob's, Miranda's, or Samara's.
PS when you say you were forced to choose between Miranda and Jack do you mean to resolve their argument on the ship earlier? If so a different play prior to that point should allow you to resolve that argument and keep the loyalty of both, or failing that regain the loyalty of the one whose loyalty you lost. If all else fails there are approaches in the suicide mission that would allow both a non-loyal Jack or a non-loyal Miranda to survive. It'd be long and going off topic to cover all the possibilities here but if you posted your team make up and all your suicide mission choices it could be looked at, as can how you can improve your paragon/renegade so as to keep them both loyal in the first place.
PS when you say you were forced to choose between Miranda and Jack do you mean to resolve their argument on the ship earlier? If so a different play prior to that point should allow you to resolve that argument and keep the loyalty of both, or failing that regain the loyalty of the one whose loyalty you lost. If all else fails there are approaches in the suicide mission that would allow both a non-loyal Jack or a non-loyal Miranda to survive. It'd be long and going off topic to cover all the possibilities here but if you posted your team make up and all your suicide mission choices it could be looked at, as can how you can improve your paragon/renegade so as to keep them both loyal in the first place.
Modifié par PsiFive, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:36 .
#11
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 02:39
ViciousCargo
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Yes, when I first played ME2 the first couple times I failed to get both of their loyalties because of their little argument (not enough paragon/renegade). Later, when I discovered how to maintain both loyalties, I did just that. However, now I let them argue and choose randomly. I don't really like either of them so it's no skin off my nose.
#12
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 02:43
PsiFive
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Ah, right, I understand now. Fair enough.
#13
Posté 23 décembre 2012 - 02:14
KangDo
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ViciousCargo wrote...
Hmm, thought Thane was a tank. Oh well, guess he can go back to the black lagoon where he belongs.
I think BW's interpretation of what could be considered a tank are the guys you could picture sitting in the trenches, taking heavy fire and mowing people down with assault rifles. Grunt, Zaeed and Grunt I can easily picture in that role but I guess Thane not so much since he's more of an assassin, is a squishier race and wears a long coat rather than armor. I'm surprised Legion and Jacob aren't in that role too but I guess since Jacob likes to wear skintight clothing and carry a shotgun, he doesn't and Legion must just be for balance reasons.
As for Mordin, I always just make him escort the Normandy crew and not have to worry about the whole thing. Personally, I don't like the idea of giving the salarian doctor any heavy combat roles anyway.
#14
Posté 23 décembre 2012 - 01:12
Get Magna Carter
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Bioware originally intended Thane to be one of the tough defenders along with Grunt and Zaeed but then Garrus' recruitment mission convinced them that he should be one of the 3 tough defenders instead of Thane.ViciousCargo wrote...
Hmm, thought Thane was a tank. Oh well, guess he can go back to the black lagoon where he belongs.
so Thane ended up obsolete with no significant use on the mission.
#15
Posté 23 décembre 2012 - 06:32
sweet-d
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The solution is to have Mordin escort the remaining crew members. Also make sure you leave Grunt to "hold the line" like others mentioned. But to the Op I've beaten ME2 over 6 times and I've only lost squad mates on my first play through your doing some thing wrong. You have to have every mission done except Legions loyalty mission before you get the Reaper IFF and I mean every mission because I've never had this issue before.
