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Why don't more people choose Control?


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#326
Eterna

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

To all the people saying having too much power is a bad thing and that it corrupts: Is Superman a bad guy?


Is Superman a human?


Does superman actually f*cking exist? 

What a f*cking stupid analogy. 


SHepard doesn't exist either, and upon becoming the new catalyst is no longer human. 


And that somehow makes the asinine analogy better. 


If one fictional character doesn't misuse power why cant mine? 

#327
Isichar

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hukbum wrote...

Isichar wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Isichar wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Maybe, one day, when I think a police state is a good idea and when I'm stupid enough to belief a 30 yo human has enough experience to lead a galaxy for ever, I'll choose control.


Age does not necessarily determine wisdom.

I've not been talking about wisdom ;)


I would imagine your wisdom in knowing how to use the Reapers effectively would determine how well control would end up been.

Aha ... and what do we know about the reapers and how we use them "effectively" in the end of the game?


We know the new "Catalyst" which controls the cycles will be created based on Shepards ideals and motives.

#328
PsiMatrix

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CrutchCricket wrote...

None of which address the point at all: the morality of the choice itself. Though some of those issues are more valid than others, none of them are about the ethics of choosing control at all. Whether you personally like the idea or presentation has nothing to do with the ethics of it. Whether it works as intended is also irrelevant to the question "is it right to choose control?".

Morality is subjective. It was a point of contention when Morality missions showed up in City of Heroes. Some were happy with the status quo as presented; others thought that heroes going vigilante and then villain were decidely more evil than the equivalent villain missions.

For me the decisions of the chamber were reflected through the series:

AIs started as all-bad in ME1 but we were always pitted against them,. Geth, Reapers (since they were just AI by ME1 exposition) and all the other side-quest AIs. ME2 gave them a more greyish tone with Legion and EDI and that over time they could be friends if they were accepted as equals rather than treated as outcasts. ME3 painted the Geth as misunderstood and EDI as wanting to evolve and asking you for guidance. After all your input one thing was clear (for my mostly Paragon run); they were like children and with your guidance "they would rather risk no-functionality than be slaves to the Reapers". There's also Legion's loyalty mission that almost eveyrone is dead set against 'controlling' the heretics by rewriting them to be 'correct'.

ME2 basically proved Synthesis, by Reaper standards, was abhorrent. 'Everyone would be the same' and 'final evolution of life' were disgusting terms to me. I studied biology and the greatest strength of life is diversity not homogonisation. The only guy who mentions about everyone being the same is the Presidium Groundskeeper. That and it's a life-changing decision that shouldn't be made while under duress coupled with the Brat lecturing us that 'it is inevitable'.... well if it's inevitable then why aren't you waiting till it happens instead of killing everyone off every 50K years. He also makes no assurance that the cycleS plural will end. Saren was also the poster-child for synthesis and 'all his doubts disappeared' when he was implanted... then he either shoots himself because he realises he's wrong or tries to kill you and then his corpse is used as a golem by Sovereign to attack and kill Shepard.

This all leads to how the Reapers have presented themselves throughout the series; they think nothing of us and right at the point of victory their leader show up pretending to be a child to elicit sympathy, compassion, we're not sure because it's an AI that has no understanding of organics (bit like GlaDOS in Portal) beyond how to process them into putty and squish them into a crunchy Reaper shell. Then it goes 'yeah, you should be fine to control us'. Why? I just convinced TIM he was wrong and he shot himself because he couldn't stop the voices in his head from telling him 'Shepard is wrong, keep tell them that. Control is the key! Muahaha.... you can ignore that last bit'.

So I choose the common voice in all of my friends and allies summed up by my commander: "Dead Reapers is how we win this". We've tried for three games to destroy them. We halted and destroyed their Vanguard, we stopped their attempt at making the Human-Reaper and maybe blew up their foothold in the galaxy, the Collector base and for the bulk of ME3 we're gathering forces to stop them.

Then there was the change of character for Shepard. Barely five minutes after telling TIM he was wrong and a minute with this ghostly figure; he tells us 'you can do it Shepard' and then SHEPARD AGREES. My immersion at that point shattered. The child said 'you can do it', Shepard said 'okay' and then I went 'screw that'. Even my Paragon went red at that.

#329
Eterna

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mass perfection wrote...

Here are some reasons why you shouldn't pick Control (I like my Renegade Control though)

1.The blueness of the ending is way creepier then the redness and greeness of the others.
2.Its them is very creepy and sinister
3.Even during the Paragon version,some things in the speech is pretty scary
4.Reapers themselves are scary

I think this all foreshadows something......scary.


Talk about a primitive reaction. "It's scarry so it must be bad!" 

People were scared of going up to the Moon. 

#330
fiendishchicken

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After looking at this thread, all I can say is good work for giving the people on the BSN another thread to war with each other OP. Bravo.

#331
Ieldra

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mass perfection wrote...
Here are some reasons why you shouldn't pick Control (I like my Renegade Control though)

1.The blueness of the ending is way creepier then the redness and greeness of the others.
2.Its them is very creepy and sinister
3.Even during the Paragon version,some things in the speech is pretty scary
4.Reapers themselves are scary

I think this all foreshadows something......scary.

:lol::lol:

#332
PnXMarcin1PL

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iakus wrote...

Eryri wrote....  

If on the other hand, as you say, this copy of Shepard is no longer susceptible to such human frailty, then he must surely have lost that human perspective. Then he becomes something beyond our understanding, with thought processes and actions we can no longer predict. Something operating without human morality, and which may make a cold, rational calculation that the cycles must begin again to serve some perceived "greater good".



Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. Image IPB


:whistle::whistle::whistle:

Modifié par PnXMarcin1PL, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:21 .


#333
Twinzam.V

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Eterna5 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Here are some reasons why you shouldn't pick Control (I like my Renegade Control though)

1.The blueness of the ending is way creepier then the redness and greeness of the others.
2.Its them is very creepy and sinister
3.Even during the Paragon version,some things in the speech is pretty scary
4.Reapers themselves are scary

I think this all foreshadows something......scary.


Talk about a primitive reaction. "It's scarry so it must be bad!" 

People were scared of going up to the Moon. 


Not really. First they wanted to nuke it. =]

#334
mass perfection

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Ieldra2 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...
Here are some reasons why you shouldn't pick Control (I like my Renegade Control though)

1.The blueness of the ending is way creepier then the redness and greeness of the others.
2.Its theme is very creepy and sinister
3.Even during the Paragon version,some things in the speech are pretty scary
4.Reapers themselves are scary

I think this all foreshadows something......scary.

:lol::lol:



#335
Eryri

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PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

iakus wrote...

Eryri wrote....  

If on the other hand, as you say, this copy of Shepard is no longer susceptible to such human frailty, then he must surely have lost that human perspective. Then he becomes something beyond our understanding, with thought processes and actions we can no longer predict. Something operating without human morality, and which may make a cold, rational calculation that the cycles must begin again to serve some perceived "greater good".



Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. Image IPB


:whistle::whistle::whistle:


:lol: That's still one of my favourite parts of ME1.

#336
M Hedonist

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fiendishchicken wrote...

After looking at this thread, all I can say is good work for giving the people on the BSN another thread to war with each other OP. Bravo.

Nah, this thread is more like a healthy debate, at least atm.

#337
Iakus

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fiendishchicken wrote...

After looking at this thread, all I can say is good work for giving the people on the BSN another thread to war with each other OP. Bravo.


With one or two exceptions, this has been a very restrained and intelligent debate.

By BSN standards, anyway.

#338
clennon8

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Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

To all the people saying having too much power is a bad thing and that it corrupts: Is Superman a bad guy?


Is Superman a human?


Does superman actually f*cking exist? 

What a f*cking stupid analogy. 


SHepard doesn't exist either, and upon becoming the new catalyst is no longer human. 


And that somehow makes the asinine analogy better. 


If one fictional character doesn't misuse power why cant mine? 

Taking this topic undeservedly seriously just for a minute, read The Dark Knight Returns, where Superman has become a lackey of a totalitarian United States government.

#339
Armass81

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Finn the Jakey wrote...

Because it's exactly what the main antagonist wanted to do throughout the entire game.


TIM wanted to control them to establish a fascist galactic empire.

Shepard can turn them from weapons of mass destruction into constructors and guardians of the galaxy, to harness their power and have them do something good for a change.

Modifié par Armass81, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:28 .


#340
Enhanced

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Sauruz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The "absolute power corrupts" doesn't actually apply here considering Shepard in the Control ending is no longer organic.

As I see it, he's either still human enough to make mistakes, or he's lost his empathy.
The concept of an AI only with the best characteristics of humanity just seems too far-fetched to me.
Heh, but so does most of the stuff that happens in the endings...


EDI? Isn't she a perfect example of an A.I. that can empathize with humanity?

Modifié par Enhanced, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:28 .


#341
Seboist

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Apart from making no narrative sense, the reason why the forever alones and carebear types don't pick control is that they won't be with their virtual waifus/manfus in the end.

#342
Twinzam.V

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Armass81 wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Because it's exactly what the main antagonist wanted to do throughout the entire game.


He wanted to control them to establish a fascist galactic empire.

Shepard can turn them from weapons of mass destruction into constructors and guardians of the galaxy.


And impose order in the chaos of organic evolution.

#343
Uncle Jo

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Eterna5 wrote...

I chose Control because I firmly believe there needs to be a force or entity that can prevent war before it begins. Some people may call that robbing organics of free will, but personally I believe that the ability to commit war on a large scale is not a right worth having. 

*snip*


Wow man. Just wow. And how are you going to prevent a war before it begins?

#344
Ieldra

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@Seboist:
If your LI is all that kept you going - and I have seen very interesting Shepard concepts along those lines - that's a perfectly valid reason.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:31 .


#345
hukbum

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Isichar wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Isichar wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Isichar wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Maybe, one day, when I think a police state is a good idea and when I'm stupid enough to belief a 30 yo human has enough experience to lead a galaxy for ever, I'll choose control.


Age does not necessarily determine wisdom.

I've not been talking about wisdom ;)


I would imagine your wisdom in knowing how to use the Reapers effectively would determine how well control would end up been.

Aha ... and what do we know about the reapers and how we use them "effectively" in the end of the game?


We know the new "Catalyst" which controls the cycles will be created based on Shepards ideals and motives.

Ideals, morals, wisdom and motives based on 30 years of experience ... yeah, I think this new one is perfect for the job and will have an answer for every situation.

#346
Dr_Extrem

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@Seboist:
If your LI is all that kept you going - and I have seen very interesting Shepard concepts along those lines - that's a perfectly valid reason.


but those people are lonly basement dwellers ... character concepts are for p****

(could contain traces of sarcasm)

#347
Iakus

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clennon8 wrote...

Taking this topic undeservedly seriously just for a minute, read The Dark Knight Returns, where Superman has become a lackey of a totalitarian United States government.



As an added aside, I believe there was a point in the comics where Superman did in fact give Batman a kryptonite ring so he could take Supes down if  he ever goes bad or loses control.

#348
jtav

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@Seboist:
If your LI is all that kept you going - and I have seen very interesting Shepard concepts along those lines - that's a perfectly valid reason.


It's ultimately why I couldn't, sorta. I didn't want him to become a creature who cou;dn't love her.

#349
Paranoidal nemesis

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clennon8 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

To all the people saying having too much power is a bad thing and that it corrupts: Is Superman a bad guy?


Is Superman a human?


Does superman actually f*cking exist? 

What a f*cking stupid analogy. 


SHepard doesn't exist either, and upon becoming the new catalyst is no longer human. 


And that somehow makes the asinine analogy better. 


If one fictional character doesn't misuse power why cant mine? 

Taking this topic undeservedly seriously just for a minute, read The Dark Knight Returns, where Superman has become a lackey of a totalitarian United States government.



Ironically, Frank Miller has become one as well, just read his recent interviews, and if thats not enough his graphic novel "Holy Terrorist" was meant to be a batman story.

#350
Meltemph

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I didn't do all those things just to see civilization stay the same. It's one reason I like Synthesis: the post-Synthesis future is exotic and radically different from what came before. I even find the dark age scenario interesting, as long as it's an option I can avoid or take, unlike in the original endings.


I'm really confused here. If things would have reverted to how things were, before the reaper mess, this would allow the things you are talking about to happen. How is just magically becoming transhuman more interesting then being PART of the Mass Effect Universe and watch how that all transpires in a more organic and natural way?

How is "wham, we are tanshuman" more interesting then the road to becoming it? Where is the fun in a transhuman future if nothing unique about transhuman "features" at all. The endings, outside of destroy, took out the most fundamental enjoyment of stories and settings, to me. They took out the journy, the curiosity, the hardships, and the adventure of arriving at a higher plataue, technilogically and socially, then where you originally started.

Outside of destroy, the endings are uber happy fun time cheat codes so there needs not be any history to the development of technology and the galactic community as a whole. There is no wonder as to how each civilization will go with their technology, because they all, much more so then even before, share the exact same technology, and they got to the same point on the exact same path.

There is no diversion between roads taken now, the mystery that comes with the journey that you are talking about is now gone, and now all we have is "after the matter". That to me is an incredibly cheap way to move things along.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:42 .