1388 réponses à ce sujet

[clennon8]

Meltemph wrote...

I didn't do all those things just to see civilization stay the same. It's one reason I like Synthesis: the post-Synthesis future is exotic and radically different from what came before. I even find the dark age scenario interesting, as long as it's an option I can avoid or take, unlike in the original endings.

I'm really confused here. If things would have reverted to how things were, before the reaper mess, this would allow the things you are talking about to happen. How is just magically becoming transhuman more interesting then being PART of the Mass Effect Universe and watch how that all transpires in a more organic and natural way?

How is "wham, we are tanshuman" more interesting then the road to becoming it? Where is the fun in a transhuman future if nothing unique about transhuman "features" at all. The endings, outside of destroy, took out the most fundamental enjoyment of stories and settings, to me. They took out the journy, the curiosity, the hardships, and the adventure of arriving at a higher plataue, technilogically and socially, then where you originally started.

Outside of destroy, the endings are uber happy fun time cheat codes so there needs not be any history to the development of technology and the galactic community as a whole. There is no wonder as to how each civilization will go with their technology, because they all, much more so then even before, share the exact same technology, and they got to the same point on the exact same path.

There is no diversion between roads taken now, the mystery that comes with the journey that you are talking about is now gone, and now all we have is "after the matter". That to me is an incredibly cheap way to move things along.

I'm not religious, but HALLELUJAH!

[Ieldra]

Meltemph wrote...

I didn't do all those things just to see civilization stay the same. It's one reason I like Synthesis: the post-Synthesis future is exotic and radically different from what came before. I even find the dark age scenario interesting, as long as it's an option I can avoid or take, unlike in the original endings.

I'm really confused here. If things would have reverted to how things were, before the reaper mess, this would allow the things you are talking about to happen. How is just magically becoming transhuman more interesting then being PART of the Mass Effect Universe and watch how that all transpires in a more organic and natural way?

Because the road to getting here has been done a thousand times. Stories actually playing in such a world are rare. The mysteries we could actually explore, the journeys we could take from that state onwards have rarely been written about. If things went back to normal, I would like the next story to play out 1000 years from the present. Also, I don't agree with your assessment that basically all cultures and technologies are the same now. And lastly, there is nothing inherently preferable in the supposedly natural.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 décembre 2012 - 10:53 .

[Paranoidal nemesis]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Seboist:
If your LI is all that kept you going - and I have seen very interesting Shepard concepts along those lines - that's a perfectly valid reason.

It's ultimately why I couldn't, sorta. I didn't want him to become a creature who cou;dn't love her.

Similar reason of why I can't choose synthesis, even though I know Shep is dead. 

In regards to some of the other posts about the LI serving as a virtual girlfriend for basement dwellers, I want to mention  something Bioware does better then any other studio is develop its characters with both depth and interaction.  To make Mass Effect's universe worth saving, there should be someone in it worth dying for.

[Galifreya]

Control is sick. Synthesis is worse. Destroy hurts, but it's the best of the three options. The AI can be rebuilt. The entire galactic genetic code cannot once you pick synthesis. The Reapers cannot be destroyed if you control them either, without head canon at least.

In control, all of the husks, all of the races that were turned...are now running around doing...what? Helping the races they used to be, as mindless...what, "helpers"? Let's not fool ourselves, they become slaves, just like the Reapers. You don't think that's a little bit messed up? Same with synthesis. All of the husks turn into half sentient monster-looking things that...are also pretty much slaves.

We are never told definitively what goes on with them, so I have no choice but to assume that this is what happens.

So yeah. I'll stick with Destroy, thanks. It's the only ending where I know what happens to the galaxy. It's safe. And even though it sacrifices EDI and the Geth, it doesn't sacrifice the beliefs Shepard (ANY Shepard) has held throughout the whole of the three games.

Dead Reapers are how you win. That's it. It's really not that difficult to grasp.

Also there's the small detail of Shepard's survival. That always helps.

[Dr_Extrem]

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Seboist:
If your LI is all that kept you going - and I have seen very interesting Shepard concepts along those lines - that's a perfectly valid reason.

It's ultimately why I couldn't, sorta. I didn't want him to become a creature who cou;dn't love her.

Similar reason of why I can't choose synthesis, even though I know Shep is dead. 

In regards to some of the other posts about the LI serving as a virtual girlfriend for basement dwellers, I want to mention  something Bioware does better then any other studio is develop its characters with both depth and interaction.  To make Mass Effect's universe worth saving, there should be someone in it worth dying for.

or worth living for ..

[SpamBot2000]

Reading this thread is very depressing... People are all "Power corrupts? LOL, wat? It ain't gonna corrupt me cuz I'm cool like that."

Having an understanding of one's own corruptibility is pretty basic for any system of ethics. Having that dismissed as "negative headcanon" is just... I don't even...

[Meltemph]

Because the road to getting here has been done a thousand times. Stories actually playing in such a world are rare. If things went back to normal, I would like the next story to play out 1000 years from the present.

But without a unique history as to how one ends up at that point, there is no story after, or at least no difference between the then and the now. IF everyone IS, then the story is just as generic as any other scifi story. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "this has never been done". I mean, technology in most futuristic games is essentially what you are talking about.

I don't agree with your assessment that basically all cultures and technologies are the same now. And lastly, there is nothing inherently preferable in the supposedly natural.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, at all. I was talking about from a story perspective of telling the story in a natural and more organic way, instead of "BAM". I'm not sure what kind of story you would expect in a universe where everything has now been done. Remember, not only is now everyone improved, but the reapers are still around as well, which seems to me to have everything pretty much going perfect for them. I'm not sure what could go wrong, with the synthesis ending.

[The Night Mammoth]

clennon8 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

To all the people saying having too much power is a bad thing and that it corrupts: Is Superman a bad guy?

Is Superman a human?

Does superman actually f*cking exist? 

What a f*cking stupid analogy. 

SHepard doesn't exist either, and upon becoming the new catalyst is no longer human. 

And that somehow makes the asinine analogy better. 

If one fictional character doesn't misuse power why cant mine? 

Taking this topic undeservedly seriously just for a minute, read The Dark Knight Returns, where Superman has become a lackey of a totalitarian United States government.

Or read Superman: Red Son, which is just as relevant. 

The goalposts have moved though. Brining superman into the discussion was a f*king mornonic way to provide an example of someone not abusing their almost limitless power, since he's fictional, just like Commander Shepard. Yeah, imagine whatever you want, but that point is effectively irrelevant to any discussion on the matter. 

[clennon8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

I didn't do all those things just to see civilization stay the same. It's one reason I like Synthesis: the post-Synthesis future is exotic and radically different from what came before. I even find the dark age scenario interesting, as long as it's an option I can avoid or take, unlike in the original endings.

I'm really confused here. If things would have reverted to how things were, before the reaper mess, this would allow the things you are talking about to happen. How is just magically becoming transhuman more interesting then being PART of the Mass Effect Universe and watch how that all transpires in a more organic and natural way?

Because the road to getting here has been done a thousand times. Stories actually playing in such a world are rare. The mysteries we could actually explore, the journeys we could take from that state onwards have rarely been written about. If things went back to normal, I would like the next story to play out 1000 years from the present. Also, I don't agree with your assessment that basically all cultures and technologies are the same now. And lastly, there is nothing inherently preferable in the supposedly natural.

I'm sure you can find a couple people to agree with you.  Personally, I don't find a magically gifted reality where everybody is living "the lives they have wished for," and there is "peace across the galaxy" to be a particularly fruitful setting for story-telling.

[clennon8]

lol. I think we have adequately smashed the Superman analogy. Let's move on to other idiocies.

[The Night Mammoth]

clennon8 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

I didn't do all those things just to see civilization stay the same. It's one reason I like Synthesis: the post-Synthesis future is exotic and radically different from what came before. I even find the dark age scenario interesting, as long as it's an option I can avoid or take, unlike in the original endings.

I'm really confused here. If things would have reverted to how things were, before the reaper mess, this would allow the things you are talking about to happen. How is just magically becoming transhuman more interesting then being PART of the Mass Effect Universe and watch how that all transpires in a more organic and natural way?

Because the road to getting here has been done a thousand times. Stories actually playing in such a world are rare. The mysteries we could actually explore, the journeys we could take from that state onwards have rarely been written about. If things went back to normal, I would like the next story to play out 1000 years from the present. Also, I don't agree with your assessment that basically all cultures and technologies are the same now. And lastly, there is nothing inherently preferable in the supposedly natural.

I'm sure you can find a couple people to agree with you.  Personally, I don't find a magically gifted reality where everybody is living "the lives they have wished for," and there is "peace across the galaxy" to be a particularly fruitful setting for story-telling.

What about if everyone's only like that because they've been brainwashed? 

Very sci-fi if you ask me. 

And morally f*cking abhorrent. 

[Twinzam.V]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I chose Control because I firmly believe there needs to be a force or entity that can prevent war before it begins. Some people may call that robbing organics of free will, but personally I believe that the ability to commit war on a large scale is not a right worth having. 

*snip*

Wow man. Just wow. And how are you going to prevent a war before it begins?

Isnt that almost similar to what the reapers are doing?

[jtav]

Easy, make it a little cyberpunk-y. The Industrial Revolution solved a lot of our problems but it created new ones as well. People are still people.

[Meltemph]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

I didn't do all those things just to see civilization stay the same. It's one reason I like Synthesis: the post-Synthesis future is exotic and radically different from what came before. I even find the dark age scenario interesting, as long as it's an option I can avoid or take, unlike in the original endings.

I'm really confused here. If things would have reverted to how things were, before the reaper mess, this would allow the things you are talking about to happen. How is just magically becoming transhuman more interesting then being PART of the Mass Effect Universe and watch how that all transpires in a more organic and natural way?

Because the road to getting here has been done a thousand times. Stories actually playing in such a world are rare. The mysteries we could actually explore, the journeys we could take from that state onwards have rarely been written about. If things went back to normal, I would like the next story to play out 1000 years from the present. Also, I don't agree with your assessment that basically all cultures and technologies are the same now. And lastly, there is nothing inherently preferable in the supposedly natural.

I'm sure you can find a couple people to agree with you.  Personally, I don't find a magically gifted reality where everybody is living "the lives they have wished for," and there is "peace across the galaxy" to be a particularly fruitful setting for story-telling.

What about if everyone's only like that because they've been brainwashed? 

Very sci-fi if you ask me. 

And morally f*cking abhorrent. 

I'm not sure why that matters? Even if they are brainwashed, the way they setup synthesis, the universe cant get more "perfect" now.  Not sure where there would be a gripping story there.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Easy, make it a little cyberpunk-y. The Industrial Revolution solved a lot of our problems but it created new ones as well. People are still people.

Good analogy. There will be new wonders, but also new horrors, Also, the "final evolution" is nonsense. The epilogue clearly shows future advancement.

[Steelcan]

I'm playing the decision chamber right now..... Shut up Glowstick let me blow you up.

[Meltemph]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Easy, make it a little cyberpunk-y. The Industrial Revolution solved a lot of our problems but it created new ones as well. People are still people.

Good analogy. There will be new wonders, but also new horrors, Also, the "final evolution" is nonsense. The epilogue clearly shows future advancement.

I'm not sure where these "horros" will come from.  Synthesis litterally sets up a perfect condition for things to go as smoothly as possible.  Control not as much, but I still see most of the "chalenges" with the reapers around pretty trivial unless it is a "gotcha" kind of thing.

[jtav]

Off the top of my head:

Harbinger decides he wants to lord over the puny humans like the Leviathan he used to be
Husk rights groups
Mind hacks
Secession by those who want to undo the upgrades, perhaps outright terrorism
Technological spins on old crimes in general.

[Meltemph]

jtav wrote...

Off the top of my head:

Harbinger decides he wants to lord over the puny humans like the Leviathan he used to be
Husk rights groups
Mind hacks
Secession by those who want to undo the upgrades, perhaps outright terrorism
Technological spins on old crimes in general.

Wait, so you think synthesis essetnially created a Ghost in the Shell world?  I saw none of that in the ending that hinted that was the intention of it. Beyond that, I see nothing in that list outside of husk rights(not sure if serious) and Harbinger, that wouldnt be possible without synthesis or control.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Solmanian]

Ok, OP mainly just confused me with all kinds of legal jargon, but I'll give my best shot. Actually, control is by far my favorite ending. It's feels like the best resulotion to shepards story. Admittedly, pre-EC control was my least favorite. So we have EC to thank for that, and clarifying the endings.

I reckon peple choose destroy, because they feel unfulfiled if they don't get to kill the reapers after three games of fighting them and their henchman. And synthesis... Well that's your "disney ending" where everyone holds hands together.

I certainly don't agree that destroy is somehow superior because shepard lives... If anything his survival feels like punishment from an artistic point of view. He was denied peace for his crime (xenocide). Sacrificing billions so you can survive, doesn't get you any medals other than "douchbag of the year"...

Also, shepard "enslaving" the reapers, is not the vibe I got from it. More like "infecting" them with his point of view.

Modifié par Solmanian, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:25 .

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

Off the top of my head:

Harbinger decides he wants to lord over the puny humans like the Leviathan he used to be
Husk rights groups
Mind hacks
Secession by those who want to undo the upgrades, perhaps outright terrorism
Technological spins on old crimes in general.

these problems could let the catalyst decide to abandon this "experiment" and start over again.

the catalyst could realise, that the conflict between organics and synthetics is only a placeholder for "conflict can grow everywhere and out of everything". the catalyst adapted once (by deciding, that the leviathans are a part of the problem) - it can adapt again.

[jtav]

I think it created a massive technological upgrade and some kind of optional mental networking, It doesn't magically erase all problems forever and ever.

You were talking about Synthesis, yes?

Modifié par jtav, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:26 .

[Meltemph]

jtav wrote...

I think it created a massive technological upgrade and some kind of optional mental networking, It doesn't magically erase all problems forever and ever.

I didnt realize this was a headcannon topic, sorry.  I was talking about the endings as is, taken to the enth degree is for the most part boring.  Nothing about control and synthesis adds anything to the setting, everything done in those(outside of super hero's known as reapers) could easily be done with a destroy like ending(dont like this one either really, but it gets more to my point), where there could actually be a real history of how each race went from point A to point Z, instead we have point A and then point Z, with no history in between outside of what was already there.

What you are describing is all headcannon based on how you want synthesis or control to go.  I see nothing in either of those though that would have to be relegated to any specific ending, and rely's much more so on the writers themselves.

[Ieldra]

Meltemph wrote...

jtav wrote...

Off the top of my head:

Harbinger decides he wants to lord over the puny humans like the Leviathan he used to be
Husk rights groups
Mind hacks
Secession by those who want to undo the upgrades, perhaps outright terrorism
Technological spins on old crimes in general.

Wait, so you think synthesis essetnially created a Ghost in the Shell world?  I saw none of that in the ending that hinted that was the intention of it. Beyond that, I see nothing in that list outside of husk rights(not sure if serious) and Harbinger, that wouldnt be possible without synthesis or control.

Those are all natural possible consequences of Synthesis itself. Integration of technology can make you vulnerable to hacks. Political disagreements about the Synthesis itself are basically a given. The galaxy is generally peaceful, but events not big enough to make it into a five-minute newspiece covering two hundred years of history will not be mentioned. Plenty of room for interesting stories. I really don't know why people have this idea in their minds that the post-Synthesis civilization is boring and static. Maybe it's the original ending. The EC epilogue clearly shows it's a road towards an unknown future for galactic civilization, not stagnation.

Anyway, I would love to debate this further in the Synthesis thread. Let's not derail this one further.

Edit:
Abouit jtav's answer: "Integration of technology" is specifically mentioned in the exposition. What the hell do you take that to mean? Of course Synthesis adds to the setting.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[AlexMBrennan]

In order to shed some light on the matter, I'm asking everyone who avoids Control: why do you avoid Control? Why do you avoid a decision which is clearly ethically superior to the others?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the ending choice is an academic hypothetical philosophical exercise. If it was, you'd be absolutely correct.

However, that is pure metagaming - you are assuming that the protagonist has knowledge of the epilogue slides, which is obviously absurd.
Which means that for those of us who roleplay our Shepard (which is kinda the point of an RPG by the way) it gets much more complicated because you have to factor in whether Shepard would believe Godchild's/the head Reaper's exposition and agree with his conclusions.

*I* simply do not believe that Shepard would trust Godchild at this point when he's clearly trying to get me to *not destroy* the Reapers.

Another concern is that Godchild wasn't made to be evil, and doesn't didn't come up with the Reaper cycle for the evulz - if anything, I'd say the the aesop here is that cold, hard reason and logic needs to be tempered with humanity to get an acceptable outcome. Thus, there is no guarantee that replacing one AI with another (albeit based on Shepard) wouldn't result in more of the same long term problems.

If the information about the Crucible had been learned from any other source, such as the Crucible scientists (having them brief Shepard prior to the mission would have been an absolute no-brainer) would have changed everything, of course.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 19 décembre 2012 - 11:47 .