1388 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill Casey]

Ieldra2 wrote...

"I will ensure that all have a say in their future"

...how?

[ObserverStatus]

Because not very many people here trust themselves with that kind of power, the people who picked the other endings are too weak to properly use control anyway.

[Bill Casey]

There is no proper use of that much power...
Using absolute power is intrinsically wrong in itself...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 décembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[ObserverStatus]

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from a weak person.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Bill Casey wrote...

There is no proper use of that much power...
Using absolute power is intrinsically wrong in itself...

I don't understand this logic. Everyone was cheering for Shepard when he was shooting bad guys one at a time. Why does it suddenly become wrong if he shoots a lot of them at once?

[CosmicGnosis]

Control has become increasingly more attractive to me over time. Synthesis, although I love the result, is very difficult to defend, and Destroy is too pro-organic and too anti-synthetic.

I know people will say, "But I don't hate synthetics!" Yeah, but your actions resulted in their extinction. Killing them to save them. Sound familiar?

I choose to pacify the Reapers and use their knowledge for the benefit of all. I think the Illusive Man, the avatar of Control, says it the best:

"When humanity discovered the mass relays, when we learned there was more to the galaxy than we imagined, there were some who thought the relays should be destroyed. They were scared of what we'd find, terrified of what we might let in. But look at what humanity has achieved. Since that discovery, we've advanced more than the past ten thousand years combined!"

[Lyrandori]

In my opinion, my (canon) Shepard has seen, been in and done enough.

But Control does not allow Shepard to Rest In Peace, as he/she becomes "eternal" in another form of existence by "becoming the new Catalyst", and controlling the Reapers. I'd prefer knowing I could go visit the cemetery where Shepard would have been buried and pay my respects there, rather than "looking up at the sky" and thinking that somewhere out there Shepard is "a bit everywhere" amongst "Reapers' minds", supposedly "controlling them" and never knowing peace in death after all that was accomplished.

The "problem" with this mentality is that it is subjective and only reflects one out of my three Shepards' ideology. Since I have two others, and one of those two other Shepards would have liked to go with Control, knowing or even just suspecting that eternity and avoiding death altogether is possible (even if it means getting rid of the "current" human body). That other Shepard kept the Collectors base in ME2 and basically feels good working for (or "with") Cerberus and completely agrees with the Illusive Man and humanity's potential in the grand scheme of things and life.

But I admit, my main and only one "canon" Shepard would only go with Destroy because of the reasons explained above related to Control's incapacity to allow death in all senses of the word. For that specific Shepard's case, she would say " I've done my part, it's time for me to go. ". Although that specific Shepard does not actually "seek" death per se, she would prefer that as the ultimate paid price, above anything else. Also, she's military, she enlisted knowing the risks and she has been mentally prepared "for death" ever since her youth, and in my Shepard's case especially since she lost all her relatives, parents and friends back when she was 16 years-old.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 20 décembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Iakus]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I hate what has become of this fanbase. No matter which ending you pick, someone will think you're a terrible person.

I doubt that BioWare expected this reaction.

This is what happens when you focus so much on creating a set of "bittersweet, no perfect endings" that you take it to eleven and make all of them revolting to some degree.

How much bickering was there over the DAO endings?

[Fixers0]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I choose to pacify the Reapers and use their knowledge for the benefit of all. I think the Illusive Man, the avatar of Control, says it the best:

"When humanity discovered the mass relays, when we learned there was more to the galaxy than we imagined, there were some who thought the relays should be destroyed. They were scared of what we'd find, terrified of what we might let in. But look at what humanity has achieved. Since that discovery, we've advanced more than the past ten thousand years combined!"

I Think Anderson's response later on would be a fitting:

listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated.

O boy, does TIM lose his nerve after this.

[krukow]

Because it sucks.

/thread

[ObserverStatus]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
That's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from a weak person.

You keep using that word, I do not think you know what it means.

Do explain.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Control was better before the EC.

Bill Casey wrote...
There is no proper use of that much power...
Using absolute power is intrinsically wrong in itself...

Nope. The galaxy become my giant ant farm. I can manipulate to start wars, glass planets out of boredom, and demand all sorts of things for tribute or my amuzement.

[Ieldra]

Bill Casey wrote...
There is no proper use of that much power...
Using absolute power is intrinsically wrong in itself...

So...if I have limited power and use it to prevent a war that's good. If I have unlimited power and use it to prevent a war that's wrong?

Also, three billion followers of monotheistic religions would tend to disagree with you.

[Xandurpein]

I hope you all realize how short-lived, relatively speaking, Robo-sheps reign will actually be. Freed from the threat of extinction, the races of the galaxy will be free to advance technologically and in a mere few hundred years the Reapers could be hopelessly outclassed by new weapons. Their mere existance will spur the different races to invent new Reaper-killer weapons. The Reapers are static with no economic base and will soon become a curious anachronism.

The only way Robo-shep can prevent this is if he uses force to keep the other races from advancing ttechnologically, but then he'll just become the Reaper he set out to stop.

[Eryri]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
There is no proper use of that much power...
Using absolute power is intrinsically wrong in itself...

So...if I have limited power and use it to prevent a war that's good. If I have unlimited power and use it to prevent a war that's wrong?

Also, three billion followers of monotheistic religions would tend to disagree with you.

At the risk of prying open this can of worms any further, I think Bill Casey is saying that using, not having absolute power is the problem because of the difficulty of using it responsibly. God (assuming his / her / it's existance) may possess absolute power, but I've not noticed him using it to stop any wars. (Unless he's just been very subtle about it and we'd all be radioactive dust if he hadn't). 

Additionally, God is also believed to possess omniscience and perfect benevolence, which the Shepard AI would not. God would be able to see all possible consequences of his intervening in the world, which no AI, not matter how advanced, would be able to do.

Modifié par Eryri, 20 décembre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Ieldra]

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Easy, make it a little cyberpunk-y. The Industrial Revolution solved a lot of our problems but it created new ones as well. People are still people.

Good analogy. There will be new wonders, but also new horrors, Also, the "final evolution" is nonsense. The epilogue clearly shows future advancement.

Doesn't it also say its the apex of evolution though?  There is a difference between evolution and advancement. 

Within the ME trilogy, evolution has always been used as a loose synonym for advancement, sometimes in an almost identical sense, often in the sense of "advancement that affects the human condition". It's a rather common use of the term, XCOM does it as well. But it doesn't matter if you use the term that way or in the biological sense. The main problem is that there is no apex of evolution. The concept itself is flawed, because it presupposes that (a) evolution is teleological, i.e. it has a target state, and ( when that target state is reached, further change will not occur. These misconceptions are very common, but false.

@Eryri:
He says using absolute power is intrinsically wrong. This makes no sense because you can use power - unlimited or not - for good, and if you do, saying it's bad is nonsense. You, on the other hand, said using absolute power is *problematic*, which is not at all the same and rather obvious.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 décembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[KingZayd]

because i don't trust it, and even if I did: I don't trust anyone with that power.

[UrgentArchengel]

I'm currently doing a new playthrough, and I'm going to choose EC Control for the first time. I honestly can't say which ending I prefer till ME3 is completed (All DLC released), then seeing every ending in context all the DLC, and then finally thinking really really hard about it.

Anyway, I see your point in a non-IT way. It really isn't that bad, the only atrocity is the enslavement of those poor lost souls. But maybe Shepard could "free them" of their eternal damnation through a one way trip into a star.

[Xandurpein]

Ieldra2 wrote...

He says using absolute power is intrinsically wrong. This makes no sense because you can use power - unlimited or not - for good, and if you do, saying it's bad is nonsense. You, on the other hand, said using absolute power is *problematic*, which is not at all the same and rather obvious.

I believe that absolute power is insitrinsically wrong, because the only way anyone can absolute power is if no one else has it. It's the same with freedom. If I have absolute freedom to do what ever I want, I can deprive you of your freedom.

I think that what a lot of it comes down to is if you believe that there is such a thing as an absolute and objective "good", which I don't. If you don't believe is an objective good and evil, then there can be no benevolent dictator, because ethics has to be based on consent.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 20 décembre 2012 - 08:46 .

[Applepie_Svk]

bobobo878 wrote...

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from a weak person.

I heard someone saying the SITH EMPIRE ?

[Eterna]

KingZayd wrote...

because i don't trust it, and even if I did: I don't trust anyone with that power.

But you trusted the Catalyst when it told you how to Destroy it. 

[clennon8]

Eterna5 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

because i don't trust it, and even if I did: I don't trust anyone with that power.

But you trusted the Catalyst when it told you how to Destroy it. 

And here we go with the next iteration of the Looney Toons Theory.  The Catalyst must be completely on the up and up, because otherwise a 16-ton anvil would fall on Shepard's head if he chose Destroy.  The Catalyst's lips are moving, therefore we have no choice but to believe every word that comes out of them.

Come on now.  Let's look at the options:

Option A:  Kill yourself.
Option B:  Kill yourself.
Option C:  Shoot a tube.

IT ISN'T FREAKING ROCKET SCIENCE.

Modifié par clennon8, 20 décembre 2012 - 09:34 .

[KingZayd]

Eterna5 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

because i don't trust it, and even if I did: I don't trust anyone with that power.

But you trusted the Catalyst when it told you how to Destroy it. 

when did he tell me how to destroy it?

[Applepie_Svk]

clennon8 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

because i don't trust it, and even if I did: I don't trust anyone with that power.

But you trusted the Catalyst when it told you how to Destroy it. 

And here we go with the next iteration of the Looney Toons Theory.  The Catalyst must be completely on the up and up, because otherwise a 16-ton anvil would fall on Shepard's head if he chose Destroy.  The Catalyst's lips are moving, therefore we have no choice but to believe every word that comes out of them.

Come on now.  Let's look at the options:

Option A:  Kill yourself.
Option B:  Kill yourself.
Option C:  Shoot a tube.

IT ISN'T FREAKING ROCKET SCIENCE.

To be honest, that´s the part which is so irrational that only IT make sense of it...