1388 réponses à ce sujet

[HellbirdIV]

Ieldra2 wrote...

why do you avoid Control?

Because it's really, really, really dumb.

[Xilizhra]

How about an option where "whatever I do feels right, but I can't do it all"? Where each option is a "win", but a different win, based on how you played your Shepard.

That is how the ending felt, to me. But I'm a bit odd.

If either option could be seen as "the right thing to do" without having an artificial tragedy tacked on saying "cry, dangit THIS IS SAD! STUFF!" I'd be willing to entertain the possibility.

Well... Destroy in my scenario would blow up the Normandy. The final battle would take place in dark space, over the dock complex that houses the Reapers and forges their shells, and Destroy would involve blowing up the docks to take out Harbinger before the energy pulse is sent out that destroys the Reapers. Freedom has the other Reapers gang up on and destroy Harbinger.

[Kabooooom]

They've already been established as literally too dumb to live. What did you expect from the guys that decided that "during a full scale Reaper invasion" was the best time to start another war?

What I thought was particularly dumb was that they failed to realize that even if they won and regained Rannoch, the Reapers would eventually come there and they would all die or they would lose their homeworld again.

A rational individual would say - enough is enough, attempting to retake our world is childish and is doomed to failure one way or another. Let's take our massive fleet, and go straight off the grid. Less than 1% of the galaxy is covered by the relay network. We fly far away to a place where the Reapers will never find us, and perhaps find a new homeworld.

That is the most logical route of survival for a species that is already confined to wandering the stars. The other species have worlds and colonies to fight for, the Quarians just have the fleet and their lives.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I like it, but overall I don't think it was a good idea to shift the tone of the game that drastically in the last ten minutes. The feel-good morality raised expectations for the ending, and that they weren't fulfilled made many people angry. We should've had at least one other decision of the kind "whatever I do, it feels wrong" in ME3 before the ending.

Or perhaps one less such decision at the ending? 

...No thanks. I always hated how most of the decisions in the ME universe had a huge all win/no lose Paragon bias.

You think these choices are morally horrific? If I had my way I would have made you CRY damnit.

How about an option where "whatever I do feels right, but I can't do it all"?  Where each option is a "win", but a different win, based on how you played your Shepard.

How about a renegade option where Shepard controls the Reapers, lives, and becomes Emperor of the Galaxy?  Balanced by a Paragon option where Shepard can free the Reapers of the Catalyst, they disappear into the relay network, and Shepard gets to live with the uncertainty of what's been unleashed on the galaxy?

So the current Control ending and a variant of Synthesis without the green circuits...Add the current Destroy ending and I'll take that.


EDIT:

Misread. It's not really a variant of Synthesis.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 21 décembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

So the current Control ending and a variant of Synthesis without the green circuits...Add the current Destroy ending and I'll take that.


EDIT:

Misread. It's not really a variant of Synthesis.

Current Control doesn';t allow Shepard to live.  This ending would basically be "What the Illusive Man intended all along"

And the Paragon version would be giving the Reapers back their free will (maybe with the added benefit of finding a cure for indoctrination) and ending the war, though without any guarantee for what the future holds.

These would both be "Blue" endings, just it would be "Assuming Control" and "Releasing Control"  You know, so we can have different endings based on different choices 

Edit:  And flying the Reapers into the nearest star would be another option.  Serously, we've got a whole wheel to work with here that can offer options on what to do about the Reapers.  

Modifié par iakus, 21 décembre 2012 - 12:13 .

[Zakuspec089]

I chose control because I'm a Paragon. I don't want them to make a ending canolized to those unless they have a new ones. In my ending everyone survives and are together including the Reapers. from The start of Mass Effect to the End of Mass Effect I played a Paragon, sometimes both but I'm a Paragon.

[Kabooooom]

I chose control because I'm a Paragon.

For 99.9% of the ME trilogy, destroying the Reapers would have been the paragon option. Clearly, Bioware chose to color-code control blue and destroy red to switch it up on the player in the final moments of the game, and get you thinking about what it really means to make the 'right' choice.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So the current Control ending and a variant of Synthesis without the green circuits...Add the current Destroy ending and I'll take that.


EDIT:

Misread. It's not really a variant of Synthesis.

Current Control doesn';t allow Shepard to live.  This ending would basically be "What the Illusive Man intended all along"

And the Paragon version would be giving the Reapers back their free will (maybe with the added benefit of finding a cure for indoctrination) and ending the war, though without any guarantee for what the future holds.

These would both be "Blue" endings, just it would be "Assuming Control" and "Releasing Control"  You know, so we can have different endings based on different choices 

Edit:  And flying the Reapers into the nearest star would be another option.  Serously, we've got a whole wheel to work with here that can offer options on what to do about the Reapers.  

Oh? And how would these choices be the product of our previous decisions? One of the main problems with the endings is how there isn't much exposition on why or how the Crucible does what it does. Your choices bring an interesting premise but how would the Crucible free the Reapers' will? Does it kill the Reaper Intelligence? Is this even a good thing? I mean think about it. Humans have free will and there are some rotten apples in our domain. Do you honestly think the Reapers will just leave the galaxy if you give them free will? It'll just introduce a ton of new variables for an ending that is supposedly a conclusion. It's the main reason why I don't pick Synthesis. Giving freedom to overpowered mechanical beings who were created to kill others sounds incredibly naive.

I don't want to pursue TIM's goals. I don't want to secure human dominance. I want the Reapers to be used as tools for the galaxy. That's the only Control ending I'd settle for. What you're suggesting should be a variant of Control, maybe have it be triggered by whether you saved the original Council and what you did with the Collector Base.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So the current Control ending and a variant of Synthesis without the green circuits...Add the current Destroy ending and I'll take that.


EDIT:

Misread. It's not really a variant of Synthesis.

Current Control doesn';t allow Shepard to live.  This ending would basically be "What the Illusive Man intended all along"

And the Paragon version would be giving the Reapers back their free will (maybe with the added benefit of finding a cure for indoctrination) and ending the war, though without any guarantee for what the future holds.

These would both be "Blue" endings, just it would be "Assuming Control" and "Releasing Control"  You know, so we can have different endings based on different choices 

Edit:  And flying the Reapers into the nearest star would be another option.  Serously, we've got a whole wheel to work with here that can offer options on what to do about the Reapers.  

Oh? And how would these choices be the product of our previous decisions? One of the main problems with the endings is how there isn't much exposition on why or how the Crucible does what it does. Your choices bring an interesting premise but how would the Crucible free the Reapers' will? Does it kill the Reaper Intelligence? Is this even a good thing? I mean think about it. Humans have free will and there are some rotten apples in our domain. Do you honestly think the Reapers will just leave the galaxy if you give them free will? It'll just introduce a ton of new variables for an ending that is supposedly a conclusion. It's the main reason why I don't pick Synthesis. Giving freedom to overpowered mechanical beings who were created to kill others sounds incredibly naive.

I don't want to pursue TIM's goals. I don't want to secure human dominance. I want the Reapers to be used as tools for the galaxy. That's the only Control ending I'd settle for. What you're suggesting should be a variant of Control, maybe have it be triggered by whether you saved the original Council and what you did with the Collector Base.

I'll grant you That different choices based on how you play the game could be well-nigh impossible, though perhaps something could be done with th ereputation system or an invisible scorecard like making peace on Rannoch.

But in the end, Shepard has control of the Reapers, now what?  WHy do they have to patrol the galaxy under new managemtn?  Why can't Shepard (the player) decide how that power gets used?  Why couldn't a high EMS Conntrol ending allow Shepard to live and command the Reapers as he/she sees fit?  With possible changes to the galaxy baased on that?

[Twinzam.V]

Kabooooom wrote...

I chose control because I'm a Paragon.

For 99.9% of the ME trilogy, destroying the Reapers would have been the paragon option. Clearly, Bioware chose to color-code control blue and destroy red to switch it up on the player in the final moments of the game, and get you thinking about what it really means to make the 'right' choice.

For some reason the red shirt always dies in Star Trek. 

[o Ventus]

Zakuspec089 wrote...

I chose control because I'm a Paragon. I don't want them to make a ending canolized to those unless they have a new ones. In my ending everyone survives and are together including the Reapers. from The start of Mass Effect to the End of Mass Effect I played a Paragon, sometimes both but I'm a Paragon.

How does picking Control make you a paragon?

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So the current Control ending and a variant of Synthesis without the green circuits...Add the current Destroy ending and I'll take that.


EDIT:

Misread. It's not really a variant of Synthesis.

Current Control doesn';t allow Shepard to live.  This ending would basically be "What the Illusive Man intended all along"

And the Paragon version would be giving the Reapers back their free will (maybe with the added benefit of finding a cure for indoctrination) and ending the war, though without any guarantee for what the future holds.

These would both be "Blue" endings, just it would be "Assuming Control" and "Releasing Control"  You know, so we can have different endings based on different choices 

Edit:  And flying the Reapers into the nearest star would be another option.  Serously, we've got a whole wheel to work with here that can offer options on what to do about the Reapers.  

Oh? And how would these choices be the product of our previous decisions? One of the main problems with the endings is how there isn't much exposition on why or how the Crucible does what it does. Your choices bring an interesting premise but how would the Crucible free the Reapers' will? Does it kill the Reaper Intelligence? Is this even a good thing? I mean think about it. Humans have free will and there are some rotten apples in our domain. Do you honestly think the Reapers will just leave the galaxy if you give them free will? It'll just introduce a ton of new variables for an ending that is supposedly a conclusion. It's the main reason why I don't pick Synthesis. Giving freedom to overpowered mechanical beings who were created to kill others sounds incredibly naive.

I don't want to pursue TIM's goals. I don't want to secure human dominance. I want the Reapers to be used as tools for the galaxy. That's the only Control ending I'd settle for. What you're suggesting should be a variant of Control, maybe have it be triggered by whether you saved the original Council and what you did with the Collector Base.

I'll grant you That different choices based on how you play the game could be well-nigh impossible, though perhaps something could be done with th ereputation system or an invisible scorecard like making peace on Rannoch.

But in the end, Shepard has control of the Reapers, now what?  WHy do they have to patrol the galaxy under new managemtn?  Why can't Shepard (the player) decide how that power gets used?  Why couldn't a high EMS Conntrol ending allow Shepard to live and command the Reapers as he/she sees fit?  With possible changes to the galaxy baased on that?

I think the idea behind making the Control ending seem viable is that no insignificant man can Control thousands of Mechanical Gods. Hence why it's not actually Shepard controlling the Reapers; it's an AI based on Shepard's ethical code and memories. So it makes sense that we can't direct the Reapers to do what we want them to do.

If Shepard was alive and in control of the Reapers then that would raise the validity of the "power corrupts" argument that is usually used against the current Control ending.

Plus...what happens when Shepard dies? The implications are problematic.

[Twinzam.V]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I think the idea behind making the Control ending seem viable is that no insignificant man can Control thousands of Mechanical Gods. Hence why it's not actually Shepard controlling the Reapers; it's an AI based on Shepard's ethical code and memories. So it makes sense that we can't direct the Reapers to do what we want them to do.

If Shepard was alive and in control of the Reapers then that would raise the validity of the "power corrupts" argument that is usually used against the current Control ending.

Plus...what happens when Shepard dies? The implications are problematic.

That's what make me choose destroy. If what the Starbrat says is actually true, then destroy is what gives a more concrete solution in the future.
The implications of control are in the short term. It seems fine now but what about in ten years. Will things be same?
There's only one side that holds all the power and Shepard represents the human race what doesnt make other races suspicious?

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 21 décembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[Rifneno]

I don't know, it's a real Scooby Doo mystery.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

Zakuspec089 wrote...

I chose control because I'm a Paragon. I don't want them to make a ending canolized to those unless they have a new ones. In my ending everyone survives and are together including the Reapers. from The start of Mass Effect to the End of Mass Effect I played a Paragon, sometimes both but I'm a Paragon.

How does picking Control make you a paragon?

Because it's blue and the ending is a dialogue-wheel.

[Rifneno]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Zakuspec089 wrote...

I chose control because I'm a Paragon. I don't want them to make a ending canolized to those unless they have a new ones. In my ending everyone survives and are together including the Reapers. from The start of Mass Effect to the End of Mass Effect I played a Paragon, sometimes both but I'm a Paragon.

How does picking Control make you a paragon?

Because it's blue and the ending is a dialogue-wheel.

Aye, nothing says paragon like mass slavery.

Err, wait a second, that doesn't sound right.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Rifneno wrote...

Aye, nothing says paragon like mass slavery.

Err, wait a second, that doesn't sound right.

It was mostly a joke.

That said, there are definitely paragon undertones in Control/renegade ones in Destroy, beyond the color scheme.

Paragon Shepard lets a crime lord, terrorist, merc band leader walk free just to save innocents. Why not the Reapers? Because it's not a wish-fulfillment fantasy like the rest of the game was for them?

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 21 décembre 2012 - 01:09 .

[Rifneno]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Aye, nothing says paragon like mass slavery.

Err, wait a second, that doesn't sound right.

It was mostly a joke.

That said, there are definitely paragon undertones in Control/renegade ones in Destroy, beyond the color scheme.

Paragon Shepard lets a crime lord, terrorist, merc band leader walk free just to save innocents. Why not the Reapers, because Paragon kiddies can't play without black-and-white morality?

Good point.  Never thought of it like that.

[d-boy15]

let me put it this way...

Control - Dictator, Authoritarianism / Save everyone, Galaxy still in good shape.

Synthesis - Genetic Raped, Forced change on everything / Benefit for everyone, Save all.

Destroy - Selfish, Genocide all synthetics / Allow galaxy to choose their future, Reaper really gone.

Refuse - Do nothing and let everyone die / Not bow to the reaper, Next cycle can defeat reaper without Crucible.

So, which choice is paragon/renegade? because every choice has it own moral, good side and downside.

Modifié par d-boy15, 21 décembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[Bill Casey]

Control is an act of extreme order
Destroy is an act of extreme chaos
Synthesis is an act of extreme discipline
Refuse is an act of extreme harmony

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 décembre 2012 - 02:59 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Bill Casey wrote...

Control is an act of extreme order
Destroy is an act of extreme chaos
Synthesis is an act of extreme discipline
Refuse is an act of extreme harmony

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 21 décembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[Bill Casey]

OrderVersusChaos

Bored of the age-old battle of Good versus Evil? Want something new to spice up your setting and throw your readers in confusion? Fear not! Cosmological Forces R Us has brought you the brand-new dichotomy, Order versus Chaos. Using it in a setting allows you to have two sides, in a similar way to Good and Evil, but without being so trite or preachy about it. While the most traditional works have assigned Order to Good, and Chaos to Evil, inversions of this are becoming increasingly frequent, wherever you find people dissatisfied with The Powers That Be. Often nowadays, you'll find a Chaotic Good band of rebels fighting against a Lawful Evil empire. In another interesting take on the subject, true goodness is seen as the balance between the two forces, and both Order and Chaos are portrayed as evil when they are taken to their extremes.

HarmonyVersusDiscipline

Discipline believes that Harmony is too focused on preserving and accepting, and is in fact defeatist by not trying to improve things, this is why Discipline tends to be active. On the flip side, Discipline can end up tampering with things best left unmolested, can give its practitioners a God complex, and can lose sight of the now in favor of tomorrow.

Destroy is probably seen at the "least bad" ending because the act of extreme chaos (big ****ing bomb) restores a balance between order, chaos, discipline and harmony to the cosmos...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 décembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[Eterna]

Rifneno wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Zakuspec089 wrote...

I chose control because I'm a Paragon. I don't want them to make a ending canolized to those unless they have a new ones. In my ending everyone survives and are together including the Reapers. from The start of Mass Effect to the End of Mass Effect I played a Paragon, sometimes both but I'm a Paragon.

How does picking Control make you a paragon?

Because it's blue and the ending is a dialogue-wheel.

Aye, nothing says paragon like mass slavery.

Err, wait a second, that doesn't sound right.

Implying their is slavery in control?

lol! You're delusional.

 "You cannot wage war anymore, now all will have a voice in the future, allow me to protect you all"
 "That's slavery!"

[Bill Casey]

There is slavery in control...
You've enslaved the reapers into your own private army...

[Eterna]

Bill Casey wrote...

There is slavery in control...
You've enslaved the reapers into your own private army...

And you killed them. You know what he meant about slavery, it had nothing to do with the Reapers.