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[Bourne Endeavor]

Shepard becomes a pseudo-God, whose view and perspective is absolute. If a decision is rendered more in public spectrum, they can do nothing beyond accepting "thy will of God." My qualms with Control is the lackluster narrative that requires I either infer logic that is not presented or simply default to my own head canon. We have no assurance Shepard's ascension to Catalyst will not have negative repercussions. In fact, the narrative goes to great length to imply corruption is an inevitability.

Destroy may have the unfortunate collateral damage however, the Reapers are gone with absolute certainty. Of course, that is when I do not purposely retcon the Synthetic sacrifice due to how contrived it was.

[Uncle Jo]

Ieldra2 wrote...
*snip*

@Uncle Jo:
Maybe, but it is odd that this has such a big influence in a decision you really should think about somewhat before you make it.

"You think you can control the Reapers? LOL! No. They control you!" That was the message which was hammered to the player during the three games, until the brat (also the Reaper boss) says otherwise.

The Reapers are masters at mind-meddling, they had a billion years to practice and perfect their methods. The player can reasonably ask himself, how a mere human, even Shepard, can assume control through a device which is as good as not explained. Even with the EC, there is still room for a headcanon with a bad outcome.

You have also TIM and what the writers did to him and Cerberus in ME3. "Grrrr! I'm TIM the boss of Cerberus. We kill humans, aliens, we troll everyone, nothing we do makes any sense, but we want to control the Reapers. Grrrr!" They're not credible anymore, just caricatures. 

The player needs some indentification marks in his playthrough and when he's about to make such a big decision, and all the characters Shep met and advocated the Control option were either indoctrinated, insane or just "evil".

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Xariann]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone

What this is about:
I'm making this thread to present my hypothesis that ethical considerations play a smaller role in people's final choice than they claim, and to ask people why they don't choose Control.

[...] y have may be doubtful, there can be no doubt at all that you have more impact on the future than in the other endings.

The question:
In order to shed some light on the matter, I'm asking everyone who avoids Control: why do you avoid Control? Why do you avoid a decision which is clearly ethically superior to the others? Also, if you have an opinion or a hypothesis on why more people don't choose Control, please share it!

Of course, people can ask me that, since my main Shepard also doesn't choose Control but Synthesis. I'll give an answer eventually, but I'd like to read others' first. For now, only this: ethical consideration do play a smaller role in my decisions than other considerations. However, I have never claimed otherwise.

Why people may not choose control:

1. It makes them feel like the Illusive Man, and the idea of doing what he suggested is strong enough to make them reject that choice

2. People just have bad experience with control mainly due to the fact that they have been subjected to bad control at some point in their life, so control gives a negative feeling, and don't realise that not all control is bad; good control is beneficial, but it's hard to come across people who can exercise good control

3. The Catalyst said that you'd die if you chose control in the first cut (iirc) and said something along the lines that you will lose your life as you know it in the Extended Cut (again I may be wrong on the wording, it's been a while), so right there and then they get put off by the idea that their character will end

Why I don't choose control (aside from subsequent runs to see the other endings)...

First Run
In my first run, I had lost the Geth already. Basically I omitted one mission and I had to choose. I chose the Geth at first, then saw that Tali suicided... and I reloaded and chose the Quarians. I felt bad for killing the Geth, after all the choice of the Quarians to keep attacking is theirs, so the Geth defended themselves. At that point, there weren't any synthetics I cared about (and I didn't think of EDI), I was fed up with all the pain the Reapers had caused, it made no sense to me that machines "collected" sentient beings and made them into machines and destroyed the other machines to keep order in the galaxy: killing to avoid killing. So I just destroyed them. I -then- saw that Shepard survived and I had no idea it would happen (good job I had enough assets lol).

Next Run (after I chose all endings to see how they went in other runs)
After seeing the Extended Cut, control was the one that made me saddest. It felt like the most honourable choice, and I think, from a total rational viewpoint, it would be my choice. But I am human, I am fallable, and I am that kind of person who would do anything to reunite with the person they love, if at all possible. I wanted the hope that my Shepard could meet Liara again some day; it's the only reason I didn't pick Control then.

Very flawed. Yes. I killed an entire race, yes. I justified it with the fact that this is a game, and in real life I don't know what I would actually do.

If the Extended Cut Was Released Straight Away
And I'd not made the mistake of losing the Geth, since I didn't know that Shepard would have survived at the end of the Destroy option, I think I might have chosen Control, providing it didn't enslave the other synthetics. But then am I really solving the problem of synthetics rebelling against the creators if I don't control them? Maybe there is no need to? The Geth proved (twice) that unless their own life is at risk, they have no desire to wipe the living out. But I am speaking as someone who has seen those endings now so it's hard to say.

What I do wonder though is: as the other two choices affect all sentient machines, will Control do that as well? If so, there is no point in enslaving every other machine and say "I saved them." However, since it's Control, I suppose Shepard could decide what to control and what not.

Modifié par Xariann, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[kal_reegar]

also, because I don't give a fu*k about singularity.

thousands years from now super-synthetics will destroy every organics life? Unlykely, but even if it's true, who cares?

one day the stars will die and/or the universe will collaps or something like that... and every organics will die for real.

[alfaice1]

Noblewolf wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...
Because it's exactly what the main antagonist wanted to do throughout the entire game.

Why does that matter? More to the point: why does that matter in the face of the absence of any tangible ethical downside?

Noblewolf wrote...
did you even hear how evil and pissed off reaper-shep sounded? that just has bad news written all over it....

I didn't hear anything "evil and pissed-off" in the Paragon version. Quite the opposite, in fact. "I will ensure that all have a say in their future" - how exactly is that bad?

@Uncle Jo:
Maybe, but it is odd that this has such a big influence in a decision you really should think about somewhat before you make it.

I know but just way he says it sends shivers down my spine...also the main reason i didnt pick it was reaper-shep came from a humen a humen with emotions and this one humen/reaper hybrid more or less is incontrol of the most powerful force in the galaxy so what happends when reapershep gets angry......

This


No wait, that was a Planet     Whoops

[Applepie_Svk]

Because we fought for our freedom and not for big brother ?

[Ieldra]

Applepie_Svk wrote...
Because we fought for our freedom and not for big brother ?

It doesn't appear as if the Paragon version of the Control Entity will become Big Brother.

[JasonShepard]

Xariann wrote...

Why people may not choose control:

1. It makes them feel like the Illusive Man, and the idea of doing what he suggested is strong enough to make them reject that choice

2. People just have bad experience with control mainly due to the fact that they have been subjected to bad control at some point in their life, so control gives a negative feeling, and don't realise that not all control is bad; good control is beneficial, but it's hard to come across people who can exercise good control

3. The Catalyst said that you'd die if you chose control in the first cut (iirc) and said something along the lines that you will lose your life as you know it in the Extended Cut (again I may be wrong on the wording, it's been a while), so right there and then they get put off by the idea that their character will end

Why I don't choose control (aside from subsequent runs to see the other endings)...

First Run
In my first run, I had lost the Geth already. Basically I omitted one mission and I had to choose. I chose the Geth at first, then saw that Tali suicided... and I reloaded and chose the Quarians. I felt bad for killing the Geth, after all the choice of the Quarians to keep attacking is theirs, so the Geth defended themselves. At that point, there weren't any synthetics I cared about (and I didn't think of EDI), I was fed up with all the pain the Reapers had caused, it made no sense to me that machines "collected" sentient beings and made them into machines and destroyed the other machines to keep order in the galaxy: killing to avoid killing. So I just destroyed them. I -then- saw that Shepard survived and I had no idea it would happen (good job I had enough assets lol).

Next Run (after I chose all endings to see how they went in other runs)
After seeing the Extended Cut, control was the one that made me saddest. It felt like the most honourable choice, and I think, from a total rational viewpoint, it would be my choice. But I am human, I am fallable, and I am that kind of person who would do anything to reunite with the person they love, if at all possible. I wanted the hope that my Shepard could meet Liara again some day; it's the only reason I didn't pick Control then.

Very flawed. Yes. I killed an entire race, yes. I justified it with the fact that this is a game, and in real life I don't know what I would actually do.

If the Extended Cut Was Released Straight Away
And I'd not made the mistake of losing the Geth, since I didn't know that Shepard would have survived at the end of the Destroy option, I think I might have chosen Control, providing it didn't enslave the other synthetics. But then am I really solving the problem of synthetics rebelling against the creators if I don't control them? Maybe there is no need to? The Geth proved (twice) that unless their own life is at risk, they have no desire to wipe the living out. But I am speaking as someone who has seen those endings now so it's hard to say.

What I do wonder though is: as the other two choices affect all sentient machines, will Control do that as well? If so, there is no point in enslaving every other machine and say "I saved them." However, since it's Control, I suppose Shepard could decide what to control and what not.

I don't think any of us truly know what we'd do when faced with the choice between a loved one and something 'morally' more important. (I see you've edited your post, so I'll say no more.)

Also, I'll agree with you about the hindsight issue: I picked Destroy on my very first run, however - because it was impossible in pure single player back then - I didn't get the breath scene. I switched to Control only a few days later, realising that I couldn't live with sacrificing EDI and the Geth. My original issue was the Illusive Man association - standard plotline mechanics are telling you that Control is the wrong choice! But yes, even though the pre-EC endings revealed very little, I still made my canon decision 'after the fact'.

As for the controlling synthetics issue - it's true that there's some ambiguity there, but I've never interpreted it as controlling anything more than the Reapers. Even if it is then, as you say, what is controlled can be released.

[JasonShepard]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Because we fought for our freedom and not for big brother ?

"I will ensure that all have a voice in their future."

Something which the people in 1984's dystopian future notably didn't have.

[TMZuk]

I choose MEHEM!

[Applepie_Svk]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
Because we fought for our freedom and not for big brother ?

It doesn't appear as if the Paragon version of the Control Entity will become Big Brother.

AI will be omnipotent being watching and ruling over army of powerful dreadnaughts securing that galaxy will run as AI see fits, by definition he is big brother.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

JasonShepard wrote...


"I will ensure that all have a voice in their future."

Something which the people in 1984's dystopian future notably didn't have.

It´s also nice game with a words, the old Catalyst was saying that he was also saving life from destruction...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:53 .

[malakim2099]

I think Control is better than Synthesis, but it was hit on earlier in the thread: This is exactly what TIM was trying to do for the better part of two games. So I was pretty suspicious of it from the outset (and why, on my playthrough, I picked Destroy... granted this is pre-extended cut, so I probably would have gone Refusal had I the full slate of options).

Also, Control Shepard should be able to go Galactus and pick their LI as a "herald".

[NeroonWilliams]

I think there is one more consideration for why I choose Control (when I do). Everyone in the galaxy has come to trust Shepard. If ANYONE else took control of the Reapers, nobody would trust them. Even my Renegade Shepard that chose Control nine times out of ten used her Intimidation to get everyone to back down rather than kill everything in sight. The even-handedness of Shepard that brought the races of the galaxy together should be enough for them to accept his guardianship.

[Ieldra]

@Uncle Jo:
Interesting answers, especially the part about the lack of positive identification. I guess I have an easier time with that than most, since I have identified with the "idealized" Cerberus represented by Miranda and the Cerberus Manifesto ever since the start of ME2 - pragmatic, but not needlessly cruel; willing to cross a line, but only when everything else fails; and with a science that respects life in principle, even if it isn't held absolute. TIM might have gone off the deep end, but the idea of making - very careful - use of Reaper technology always seemed reasonable to me if handled by reasonable people. Control fed right into all that, but to me, TIM was not its primary representative but rather an aberration.    


@Xariann:
Thanks for your answer, those were interesting points. As for this:

Xariann wrote...
If the Extended Cut Was Released Straight Away
And I'd not made the mistake of losing the Geth, since I didn't know that Shepard would have survived at the end of the Destroy option, I think I might have chosen Control, providing it didn't enslave the other synthetics. But then am I really solving the problem of synthetics rebelling against the creators if I don't control them? Maybe there is no need to? The Geth proved (twice) that unless their own life is at risk, they have no desire to wipe the living out. But I am speaking as someone who has seen those endings now so it's hard to say.

I'm wondering myself if people's choices would be different if the EC had been the OE. The exposition is much clearer, and the epilogue is awesome. As for controlling other synthetics, I think the Control!Shep would have a choice what to control.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 décembre 2012 - 01:47 .

[Xariann]

JasonShepard wrote...

I don't think any of us truly know what we'd do when faced with the choice between a loved one and something 'morally' more important. (I see you've edited your post, so I'll say no more.)

Thank you.

JasonShepard wrote...

Also, I'll agree with you about the hindsight issue: I picked Destroy on my very first run, however - because it was impossible in pure single player back then - I didn't get the breath scene. I switched to Control only a few days later, realising that I couldn't live with sacrificing EDI and the Geth. My original issue was the Illusive Man association - standard plotline mechanics are telling you that Control is the wrong choice! But yes, even though the pre-EC endings revealed very little, I still made my canon decision 'after the fact'.

As for the controlling synthetics issue - it's true that there's some ambiguity there, but I've never interpreted it as controlling anything more than the Reapers. Even if it is then, as you say, what is controlled can be released.

Yep, I agree. It's easy when you know everything. So your final decision is Control?

[Xariann]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm wondering myself if people's choices would be different if the EC had been the OE. The exposition is much clearer, and the epilogue is awesome. As for controlling other synthetics, I think the Control!Shep would have a choice what to control.

It would make sense.

[NeroonWilliams]

malakim2099 wrote...

I think Control is better than Synthesis, but it was hit on earlier in the thread: This is exactly what TIM was trying to do for the better part of two games. So I was pretty suspicious of it from the outset (and why, on my playthrough, I picked Destroy... granted this is pre-extended cut, so I probably would have gone Refusal had I the full slate of options).

Control of the Reapers was never TIM's endgame.  TIM's goal was to advance humanity above the other races with himself as the head (essentially becoming a new Prothean Empire).  Controlling the Reapers just became a necessary step in that process because they were in his way.

[Olopi]

I took Destroy and wol probably take it again, even due i killed the Geth and EDI(both of which i liked), it just seemed like the real reason. EVERY other character in the gae(ecxept TIM) would choose Destroy, after all they didn't fight a ar just to have the enemy controlled by somebody else, who could turn against them...

[Jadebaby]

kal_reegar wrote...

also, because I don't give a fu*k about singularity.

thousands years from now super-synthetics will destroy every organics life? Unlykely, but even if it's true, who cares?

one day the stars will die and/or the universe will collaps or something like that... and every organics will die for real.

I had this kind of mentality about my refuse thread the other day. I was going to put it into words, but I'd just be called a monster for it.

[Xandurpein]

I think that the reason why so few people chose control has to do with your view of yourself and how much responsibility you think you should have.

If you don't think anyone should be trusted with that kind of authority, you can't chose Control. If however you are comfortable with wielding that kind of authority, then I think most people's main objection to Synthesis is also gone, so my theory is that most people who lean towards Control as a "better" (less evil) choice than Destroy, pick Synthesis instead.

Personally I would never trust myself nor want the job of ruling the Galaxy. On a similar note, if someone offered me the job as Prime Minister of my country I would politely decline, because I would probably botch it.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:09 .

[Someone With Mass]

Because I was sick of the horses**t the game tried to spoon feed me, so I just picked Destroy, since it kills pretty much everything that annoyed me during the game while flipping the bird at the most idiotic characters to ever plague the trilogy, who tried to convince me that the transhuman's wet dream or replacing one borderline psychotic artificial intelligence with another without removing the almost unstoppable machine armada was for the better of the galaxy.

The first of which they even said was going to happen regardless of my actions, so where the hell is even the point in choosing it?

[Jere85]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Control is the renegade choice of TIM, its being explained over and over again that controlling the reapers is a bad idea.
Its the exact opposite of what you set out to do.

[Fixers0]

Doesn't look intimidating in the least.

[George Costanza]

I think about it as though I were Shepard. What would I do?

There's a couple of reasons that I won't pick Control.

First, the choice reminds me of the end of ME2 with the Collector Base. If you take Legion with you to the final fight, he says there's no point in destroying the base. But he's thinking as a machine. We allow emotions to cloud our judgement and it's what separates us from the machines. I destroy the Base because of the horrors that took place there, and to draw a line under it rather than keep the remains of thousands of dead around for study. Control ends the war with limited casualties, but it also means keeping the Reapers around - a race built from the misery of trillions of murdered souls. There's history there that I can't live with.

Second, there's the issue of one mind controlling the deadliest force in the galaxy. Even though I think I'm a good person and I wouldn't abuse the power, who can say without actually wielding it? It's too much power for one person to hold. And on top of that, since they're essentially computerising Shepards mind and making it into the new Catalyst, what's to say somewhere down the road, AI Shepard won't come to the same conclusions as the Catalyst, or something similar?

It's dangerous and I think the dangers are too great.

Destroy is my ending of choice because it's the one that completely draws a line under the cycle and allows life to go on without the Reapers as any sort of presense. Without any sort of external control. It ends it all and begins everything again. And yeah, sacrifices are made, and it's sad. But none of the options are particularly sunny, for me.

Modifié par George Costanza, 19 décembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[BombThatDeadGuy]

Fixers0 wrote...




Doesn't look intimidating in the least.

They actually can be quite adorable at times

Aside from that I mentioned this in another thread but for me and my friends we never picked Control because one particular thing and that is revenge.

Throughout the entire game the Reapers have either killed off several people's loved ones, best friends, comrades, and family members or worse turned them into husks, cannibals, brutes what have you.

Through that alone I find it hard to believe that people would just stop attacking even if Shepherd controls them and knowing Shepherd's luck he be the first one to be attacked.

I can't pick an ending that doesn't kill all the Reapers they don't deserve to live.