1388 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
"I cannot self-terminate."

As for iakus' proposal, sounds doable. How different would the cinematics have to be? Obviously there'd have to be an alternative to the relays getting fixed by Reapers.

"Shut down. Fly into a far away star. Exile yourself to dark space. Fly to Andromeda at sublight. Fly into the galaxy's core. Compute Pi."

Be creative, it's not hard to figure out a way to give orders to GlowBoy that either kills the Reapers, are makes them a null threat.

that's why I listed "Power down" as a choice.  I figure someone might want an option to disable the Reapers without destroying them.  EIther for study, or to keep around but inactive "just in case"

Then there's "Be free" as some sort of ultra-paragon anti-indoctrination ending.  Maybe an option could be unlocked if certain choices were made or War Assets found that could lead to a way to free the Reapers from Catalyst control (and perhaps cure indoctrination in general) for those brave enough (or foolish enough) to see what Reapers  would do when they're totally unshackled...

Also "Leave" to just send them somewhere else and either become someone else's problem or maybe a problem for us to deal with later.  Basically:  Punt.

My only concern for the 'Die' or 'Power Down' or other de facto suicidal behavior commands that destroy the Reapers is that they effectively provide all the benefits of the Destroy Option, with none of the consequences. At which point, unless you really hate all AI, why bother?

In order to make the Crucible a balanced choice setup, each option needs to have a cost of its own and to not provide the same benefits of the others. For Control in particular, a limitation on the scope of control 'We can not self-terminate' or 'We will defend ourselves' is what would keep it from being effectively the Destroy option without costs.


That said, the cost doesn't have to be Shepard's life in particular, and some of those options you gave are pretty good in the balance of reward and risk. Punting, as you pointed out, doesn't necessarily resolve the problem. Telling them to Obey Shepard is not only a risk for Shepard's corruption, but also a question of what will happen if/when Shepard dies. 'Protect Us' is filled with risk, because the Reapers already believed themselves to be our salvation through destruction. (Maybe a command of 'be our salvation without destruction?')

[Rifneno]

A lot of folks don't really understand what control is. Here, let the game's ending file names clear up a major misconception.

EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDestroyed,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDevastated,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOk,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOkShepardAlive,
EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthDestroyedAndReapersLeave,
EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthOkAndReapersLeave,
EGO_HarmonyOfManAndMachine,

So we've got destroyed, that's obviously destroy, harmony of man and machine, that's clearly synthesis, and then there's "become a Reaper." Become a Reaper. Don't believe me? Let's take a look at the official guide.



See those ending choices? "Choose to destroy the Reapers," "synergy between organics and synthetics," and "choose to become a Reaper."

Yeah, you're not controlling the Reaper fleet. You're controlling a single Reaper. Because that Reaper is made from your Shepard. And I say made from, not becomes, because the dialogue from Shepbinger makes it abundantly clear that it is not Shepard, and that Shepard is dead. Let's listen to some more of Shepbinger's dialogue, shall we?

Control Shepard: Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.
Sovereign: We are eternal.
Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.

Control Shepard: The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Sovereign: My kind transcends your very understanding.

Control Shepard: Through his death I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): You must die, so that we may live.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): This vision is your future. You fight your own rebirth.

Control Shepard: The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.
Harbinger: You have the attention of those infinitely your greater.

My favorite is that bit about wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemies. Guess what, guys? That's not your Shepard talking about harnessing the strengths of the Reapers. That's their shiny new Reaper talking about harnessing the strength of their enemy: Shepard.

[Dr_Extrem]

this is a very interesting way to look at the matter.

[Xilizhra]

A lot of folks don't really understand what control is.

Yes, evidently.

Extract buried data not included in the actual game all you like, none of it will be canonized unless Bioware makes it so officially, and I seriously doubt that it will.

Oh, and from page one:

Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 décembre 2012 - 12:35 .

[Rifneno]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, and from page one:
[quote]
Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone[/quote]
[/quote][/quote]

LOL.  I was waiting for someone to point that out, but I didn't expect it to be you.  Hilarious, truly.  From someone that spent weeks puking synthesis headcanon in the IT thread with a dozen people screaming at them to go the hell away.  That's FOX News levels of hypocrisy right there.  Wow.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, and from page one:

Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone

LOL.  I was waiting for someone to point that out, but I didn't expect it to be you.  Hilarious, truly.  From someone that spent weeks puking synthesis headcanon in the IT thread with a dozen people screaming at them to go the hell away.  That's FOX News levels of hypocrisy right there.  Wow.

The difference being that this thread does not try to shut down any and all forms of disagreement, just one (infectious) avenue of discussion.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 décembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, and from page one:

Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone

LOL.  I was waiting for someone to point that out, but I didn't expect it to be you.  Hilarious, truly.  From someone that spent weeks puking synthesis headcanon in the IT thread with a dozen people screaming at them to go the hell away.  That's FOX News levels of hypocrisy right there.  Wow.

The difference being that this thread does not try to shut down any and all forms of disagreement, just one (infectious) avenue of discussion.

I don't care what differences you tell yourself exist so you can justify yourself.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, and from page one:

Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone

LOL.  I was waiting for someone to point that out, but I didn't expect it to be you.  Hilarious, truly.  From someone that spent weeks puking synthesis headcanon in the IT thread with a dozen people screaming at them to go the hell away.  That's FOX News levels of hypocrisy right there.  Wow.

The difference being that this thread does not try to shut down any and all forms of disagreement, just one (infectious) avenue of discussion.

I don't care what differences you tell yourself exist so you can justify yourself.

You cared enough to reply. Can you avoid caring enough to reply to this? Let us learn.

[badmojo88]

personally i normally choose synth, with it the reapers are removed as a threat, but a chance exists that some of the damage they did could be undone in the long term without the chance they could decide to turn again. also alot of the problems remaining large and small could be solved, ie; korgan birth rates could be safely altered by it being the machine within them now could adapt to their environment, jokers vroliks syndrome could be healed completely, and with biological elements within her EDI could possibly could her more then a mock relationship, who knows? maybe a family? -with control you get shepard reapers, though not a bad concept, problem is though their "like" him they are -not- him and could (if things go the other way) decide that the old way was indeed the only way and it would start all over again, would the program of shepards mind still hold to his ideology under 100 years of galactic abuse? what about 1000 years? or a million? 100 million? at some point the reapers original path could come back, which defeats the point. -destroy i only pick as renegade, killing both EDI and the geth is a bit much for my good shepard, or even my 50/50 shep, its basically genocide, the geth are a race, regardless if people think their alive or not, technically -none- of the races are alive being its a video game and they are all fictional to begin with lol. But that aside within the context of the universe the geth are a living race capable of thinking and acting for themselves, and also the geth surviving helps the quarians incredibly, assuming you didnt kill the quarians for the geth lol

ultimately "control" seemed redundant -i note people read too much into the endings rather then try to take them for what they are, which is a mistake after the book Deception frankly- control seems like a stereotype "good" ending but the hero dies cliche as opposed to the synth which is the "really good" ending cliche- or the destroy or refuse which are the bad and really bad rebel without a cause cliche's lol -the hero dying at the end for alot of new writers seems 'different' they say happy endings are overdone, in truth its the reverse. Beowulf, our oldest written story in history the hero dies tragically. Almost every greek and roman legend that exists tragic endings for the hero, whats rare and along side the number of tragic ending stories is in the minority is the happy ending stories, and far more popular. Example, the movie 300, an excellent story about the courage and sacrifice of 300 Spartans who die extremely heroically and through their deaths save the known world of their time. Then you have Clint Eastwood westerns, or 'the Duke' depending on your tastes, where the hero rides of into the sunset with the 'golden haired lass' on the back of the horse yadda yadda yadda. Among these 2 archtypes even though one of the examples is based on a true story its the western that is vastly more beloved point blank, and in the end many people will not be drawn to 300 in later years, but westerns are forever in replay, even now years and years after they were made. In my opinion, the reason this is is because in real life people have to deal with tragedy on a daily basis, peoples lives are hard to begin with so most of them when seeking to be entertained dont seek out things that will add more tragedy to their existing stockpile life has already thrown upon them. Happy endings give the viewers/readers a chance to believe, if only for the length of a movie, or a book that things can work out in the end if you try hard enough, something I note alot of people desperately need to believe in this day and age. Honestly, again just my opinion, I do think this is why even with the EC (which was very good) people are still not happy with the endings to ME3, the story was a war story, a tale of heroic defiance but the ending 5 mins turned into a philosophical debate which completely contradicts the flow of the story arch, and no i do not buy into the IT non-since, to me it just looks like more of the classic lazy story telling from a writer who wrote him/her self into a corner and didnt know how to end it and was pressed for time, its generic and cheap. (again that last bits my opinion and i do not mean to offend nor start a debate)

[Eryri]

Rifneno wrote...

snip
Yeah, you're not controlling the Reaper fleet. You're controlling a single Reaper. Because that Reaper is made from your Shepard. And I say made from, not becomes, because the dialogue from Shepbinger makes it abundantly clear that it is not Shepard, and that Shepard is dead. Let's listen to some more of Shepbinger's dialogue, shall we?

Control Shepard: Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.
Sovereign: We are eternal.
Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.

Control Shepard: The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Sovereign: My kind transcends your very understanding.

Control Shepard: Through his death I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): You must die, so that we may live.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): This vision is your future. You fight your own rebirth.

Control Shepard: The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.
Harbinger: You have the attention of those infinitely your greater.

My favorite is that bit about wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemies. Guess what, guys? That's not your Shepard talking about harnessing the strengths of the Reapers. That's their shiny new Reaper talking about harnessing the strength of their enemy: Shepard.

And a mere Destroyer class reaper at that. How humiliating! I guess Shreaper will be doing the equivalent of fetching coffee for Harbinger for the next few thousand years until s/he serves out the internship. 

And that quote about harnessing the strength of you enemy is chillingly ambiguous.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 décembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Seival]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Why don't more people choose Control?

Because most people don't used to think for themselves. While most game characters tell such people that "Destory is a good idea" and "Control is a bad idea", they choose Destroy all the time. And if the game will "pose Control as a good idea", the same people will choose Control without any doubts, because "good NPC-1", "good NPC-2",... "good NPC-N" told that "Control is a good idea".

Modifié par Seival, 21 décembre 2012 - 01:29 .

[zyntifox]

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Why don't more people choose Control?

Because most people don't used to think for themselves. While most game characters tell such people that "Destory is a good idea" and "Control is a bad idea", they choose Destroy all the time. And if the game will "pose Control as a good idea", the same people will choose Control without any doubts, because "good NPC-1", "good NPC-2",... "good NPC-N" told that "Control is a good idea".

Am i the only one who find this paragraph ironic? Saying that most people don't choose control due them being stupid at the same time writing the first sentence.

[d-boy15]

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Why don't more people choose Control?

Because most people don't used to think for themselves. While most game characters tell such people that "Destory is a good idea" and "Control is a bad idea", they choose Destroy all the time. And if the game will "pose Control as a good idea", the same people will choose Control without any doubts, because "good NPC-1", "good NPC-2",... "good NPC-N" told that "Control is a good idea".

such an awesome people you are...

[Reorte]

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Why don't more people choose Control?

Because most people don't used to think for themselves. While most game characters tell such people that "Destory is a good idea" and "Control is a bad idea", they choose Destroy all the time. And if the game will "pose Control as a good idea", the same people will choose Control without any doubts, because "good NPC-1", "good NPC-2",... "good NPC-N" told that "Control is a good idea".

You keep telling yourself that if your delusions make you feel any better, although thinking is something that you might want to try every now and then.

[d-boy15]

Cstaf wrote...

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Why don't more people choose Control?

Because most people don't used to think for themselves. While most game characters tell such people that "Destory is a good idea" and "Control is a bad idea", they choose Destroy all the time. And if the game will "pose Control as a good idea", the same people will choose Control without any doubts, because "good NPC-1", "good NPC-2",... "good NPC-N" told that "Control is a good idea".

Am i the only one who find this paragraph ironic? Saying that most people don't choose control due them being stupid at the same time writing the first sentence.

nah, don't take this as a big deal...

this is Seival, he always come to make a balanced between both side.

[Olympiclash]

Rifneno wrote...

A lot of folks don't really understand what control is. Here, let the game's ending file names clear up a major misconception.

EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDestroyed,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDevastated,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOk,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOkShepardAlive,
EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthDestroyedAndReapersLeave,
EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthOkAndReapersLeave,
EGO_HarmonyOfManAndMachine,

So we've got destroyed, that's obviously destroy, harmony of man and machine, that's clearly synthesis, and then there's "become a Reaper." Become a Reaper. Don't believe me? Let's take a look at the official guide.



See those ending choices? "Choose to destroy the Reapers," "synergy between organics and synthetics," and "choose to become a Reaper."

Yeah, you're not controlling the Reaper fleet. You're controlling a single Reaper. Because that Reaper is made from your Shepard. And I say made from, not becomes, because the dialogue from Shepbinger makes it abundantly clear that it is not Shepard, and that Shepard is dead. Let's listen to some more of Shepbinger's dialogue, shall we?

Control Shepard: Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.
Sovereign: We are eternal.
Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.

Control Shepard: The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Sovereign: My kind transcends your very understanding.

Control Shepard: Through his death I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): You must die, so that we may live.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): This vision is your future. You fight your own rebirth.

Control Shepard: The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.
Harbinger: You have the attention of those infinitely your greater.

My favorite is that bit about wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemies. Guess what, guys? That's not your Shepard talking about harnessing the strengths of the Reapers. That's their shiny new Reaper talking about harnessing the strength of their enemy: Shepard.

I could have sworn we were told to take the endings at face value and the EC slides don't support any of that. They clearly show Shepalyst being the protector/leader he/she said they would be. If Shep was just one reaper then either the rest are just following his lead and helping rebuild or he really does control all of them.

Also might be a little weird to show Shep in every single reaper. I would also just show the one.

Modifié par Olympiclash, 21 décembre 2012 - 01:56 .

[Rifneno]

Olympiclash wrote...

I could have sworn we were told to take the endings at face value and the EC slides don't support any of that. They clearly show Shepalyst being the protector/leader he/she said they would be. If Shep was just one reaper then either the rest are just following his lead and helping rebuild or he really does control all of them.

Also might be a little weird to show Shep in every single reaper. I would also just show the one.

I don't know if they said to take them at face value... they've said a lot of things.  But I know one of the things they said was that "the ending is intended to have non-literal interpretations."

[UrgentArchengel]

So what's up with the Ominous music in Control? Having just done it, when "The Shepard" talks, it kinda adds an ominous feel to it. Doesn't feel right. Plus since Headcannon is the real canon here, my endings can really be what I want them to be thanks to the ambiguous nature of them. Still picking Destroy as my Canon ending after having witnessed them all.

[Olympiclash]

Rifneno wrote...

Olympiclash wrote...

I could have sworn we were told to take the endings at face value and the EC slides don't support any of that. They clearly show Shepalyst being the protector/leader he/she said they would be. If Shep was just one reaper then either the rest are just following his lead and helping rebuild or he really does control all of them.

Also might be a little weird to show Shep in every single reaper. I would also just show the one.

I don't know if they said to take them at face value... they've said a lot of things.  But I know one of the things they said was that "the ending is intended to have non-literal interpretations."

Fair enough. I stand by the fact though that why else would the other reapers be helping rubuild unless Shepard controlled them. I guess the entire monologue could be his...intentions?

Either way, I think it's cool that the endings can be debated like this. Sign of good writing IMO. Again...just my opinion.

[SpamBot2000]

Olympiclash wrote...

I could have sworn we were told to take the endings at face value and the EC slides don't support any of that. 

Prime example of the kind of 'thinking for yourself' that Seival so appreciates.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
Oh, and from page one:

Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone

LOLOLOL - where, oh where did Riferno mention IT in that post?  Anywhere?  At all?

Riferno's interpretation of Control as posted above is perfectly valid - in fact, much more fitting with the vidence presented by the games and the endings than a lot of the headcanon spouted in this thread.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  Control is nothing more than a pipe dream, and a big bag of arse.  Hell, whatever your headcanon, your Shepard argued exactly that mere minutes before you decided to Reaperize yourself.

[GethPrimeMKII]

At no point have they stated the endings must be taken at face value.

But back to the topic.

One must ask themselves: What separates Shepard from TIM? What makes Shepard more capable of controlling trillions upon trillions of minds than TIM, the Prothean splinter group who wanted control, or anyone else?

He's just a soldier. An exceptional soldier but still a soldier. So what makes him more capable? If there is no supernatural or otherworldly quality to Shepard, then how is he able to control the Reapers when countless others, who've devoted far more time and resources towards that goal, failed miserably? 

Is it really a good idea to trust the leader of the enemy to fulfill his promise of giving you full control over all his minions? 

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 21 décembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[ElSuperGecko]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...
One must ask themselves: What separates Shepard from TIM? What makes Shepard more capable of controlling trillions upon trillions of minds than TIM, the Prothean splinter group who wanted control, or anyone else?

Plus of course, the Illusive Man had spent the last few years dedicated to finding out more about the Reapers, understanding them and their technology, and experimenting with controlling their subjects.

Indoctrinated or not, TIM knew more and understood more about the Reapers than Shepard ever did.

And yet, Shepard, along with Anderson is incredibly quick to dismiss TIM's claims that the Reapers can be controlled.  But when presented with the choice, and with nothing to go on other than gut instinct, we're to believe that Shepard is capable of succeeding where TIM failed?

No, i think not.  Shepard would inevitably fail as well. 

[Xilizhra]

TIM could have done it had he not been indoctrinated, which Shepard isn't. It's just that I'd rather not see TIM do it because he's a complete bastard.