1388 réponses à ce sujet

[SeptimusMagistos]

Rifneno wrote...

A lot of folks don't really understand what control is. Here, let the game's ending file names clear up a major misconception.

EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDestroyed,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthDevastated,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOk,
EGO_ReapersDestroyedEarthOkShepardAlive,
EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthDestroyedAndReapersLeave,
EGO_BecomeAReaperAndEarthOkAndReapersLeave,
EGO_HarmonyOfManAndMachine,

So we've got destroyed, that's obviously destroy, harmony of man and machine, that's clearly synthesis, and then there's "become a Reaper." Become a Reaper. Don't believe me? Let's take a look at the official guide.



See those ending choices? "Choose to destroy the Reapers," "synergy between organics and synthetics," and "choose to become a Reaper."

Yeah, you're not controlling the Reaper fleet. You're controlling a single Reaper. Because that Reaper is made from your Shepard. And I say made from, not becomes, because the dialogue from Shepbinger makes it abundantly clear that it is not Shepard, and that Shepard is dead. Let's listen to some more of Shepbinger's dialogue, shall we?

Control Shepard: Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.
Sovereign: We are eternal.
Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.

Control Shepard: The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Sovereign: My kind transcends your very understanding.

Control Shepard: Through his death I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): You must die, so that we may live.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): This vision is your future. You fight your own rebirth.

Control Shepard: The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.
Harbinger: You have the attention of those infinitely your greater.

My favorite is that bit about wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemies. Guess what, guys? That's not your Shepard talking about harnessing the strengths of the Reapers. That's their shiny new Reaper talking about harnessing the strength of their enemy: Shepard.

When I need two related arrays of numerical variables I sometimes name them 'red' and 'blue'. They usually have as much to do with actual colors as this post has to do with anything.

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
TIM could have done it had he not been indoctrinated, which Shepard isn't. It's just that I'd rather not see TIM do it because he's a complete bastard.

...and of course Shepard doesn't sound indoctrinated in any way shape or form in the Control endings.

No, Shepard doesn't sound like TIM.  Or Harbinger.  Or Sovereign.  Or the Catalyst, for that matter.

But this isn't an IT thread - why are you bringing up indoctrination? 

[potentialfood]

everything else aside, the dark, ominous music that plays in that epilogue tells me that control was a poor choice

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
TIM could have done it had he not been indoctrinated, which Shepard isn't. It's just that I'd rather not see TIM do it because he's a complete bastard.

...and of course Shepard doesn't sound indoctrinated in any way shape or form in the Control endings.

No, Shepard doesn't sound like TIM.  Or Harbinger.  Or Sovereign.  Or the Catalyst, for that matter.

But this isn't an IT thread - why are you bringing up indoctrination? 

Indeed she does not. There's a distinct lack of genocide advocacy.

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Well, there are no perfect endings, right?  

It's just that with more and more varied optons, we might have had a better shot at getting endings more people could have lived with.

I mean, imagine, Shepard grabs the control rods, a harbinger-like voice booms out "Control assumed.  Awaiting instructions", and your last act in controling Shepard is a dialogue wheel giving the Reapers orders. 

"Protect us"
"DIe"
"Obey me"
"Be Free"
"Leave"
"Power down"

And then in a High EMS Control ending, staggering away from the control rods to face the consequences of your actions...

There was never a chance of that. They wanted that sacrifice theme. If you make an ending around a sacrifice theme, avoiding the sacrifice must incur a significant cost felt by the player or nobody will take it - and then what's the point in making it in the frist place.

How did you feel about DAO's ending BTW?

DAO's endings are great.  Much better done than ME3's ending while still retaining a sacrifice theme.

A sacrifice theme doesn't require the death of the protagonist or being forced into a morally questionable action. In DAO, a prize must be paid to slay the archdemon. That price can be paid by the Warden, but others can do so too.  And those candidates know full well what that price is, and are willing to pay it if required.  There's always a price, but the price can be different based on who pays.

In my own list, there would be pros and cons for each choice.  DIfferent rewards, but different prices and different sacrifices.

Modifié par iakus, 21 décembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[clennon8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, and from page one:

Note: This thread is intended to be an IT-free zone

LOL.  I was waiting for someone to point that out, but I didn't expect it to be you.  Hilarious, truly.  From someone that spent weeks puking synthesis headcanon in the IT thread with a dozen people screaming at them to go the hell away.  That's FOX News levels of hypocrisy right there.  Wow.

The difference being that this thread does not try to shut down any and all forms of disagreement, just one (infectious) avenue of discussion.

I don't care what differences you tell yourself exist so you can justify yourself.

You cared enough to reply. Can you avoid caring enough to reply to this? Let us learn.

lol.  Man.  You really do raise obnoxiousness, obstinacy and hypocrisy to rarefied levels.

I am now severely tempted to turn this thread into an IT zone.

Modifié par clennon8, 21 décembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My only concern for the 'Die' or 'Power Down' or other de facto suicidal behavior commands that destroy the Reapers is that they effectively provide all the benefits of the Destroy Option, with none of the consequences. At which point, unless you really hate all AI, why bother?

In order to make the Crucible a balanced choice setup, each option needs to have a cost of its own and to not provide the same benefits of the others. For Control in particular, a limitation on the scope of control 'We can not self-terminate' or 'We will defend ourselves' is what would keep it from being effectively the Destroy option without costs.


That said, the cost doesn't have to be Shepard's life in particular, and some of those options you gave are pretty good in the balance of reward and risk. Punting, as you pointed out, doesn't necessarily resolve the problem. Telling them to Obey Shepard is not only a risk for Shepard's corruption, but also a question of what will happen if/when Shepard dies. 'Protect Us' is filled with risk, because the Reapers already believed themselves to be our salvation through destruction. (Maybe a command of 'be our salvation without destruction?')

Oh, there'd still be risks with "Die" and "Power down"  I imagine killing the Reapers this way would likely have large-scale enviromental consequences not associated with the "safer" method of Destroy.  Stars going Haestrom-like from eezo being introduced to them.  That sort of thing (just thinking out loud)

While Powering down the Reapers down seems safe, I imagine this as being with the intent of not destroying them, but in studying them and possibly using them as a weapon later on. And we all know that studying Derelict Reapers can lead to all sorts of wacky hijinks in the future 

And I would of course, have given Destroy it's own lists of choices:  a sliding scale based on where damage gets inflicted.  The Crucible could be calibrated to do less damage to synthetics, at the cost of more "collateral damage" to the galaxy via relay damage, tech damage, and damage to Earth via backfire.  You cannot calibrate the Crucible perfectly (you're not Garrus, after all), but you can have some say in how it gets focused

Modifié par iakus, 21 décembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[jtav]

The trouble with DAO though is that you don't necessarily feel you're making much of a sacrifice. The DR has all the menace of a typical BW sex scene and the consequences are unknown. If you romanced Leliana, Zev, or were single, it gets better: just marry of Alistair and Anora, send Loghain to slay the archdemon and live happily ever after. Nobody loses.

I'd change the Destroy sacrifice to all Reaper tech but let the other two stand.

[clennon8]

Yeah, it's really pretty easy to get a pain-free ending to DAO.

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

The trouble with DAO though is that you don't necessarily feel you're making much of a sacrifice. The DR has all the menace of a typical BW sex scene and the consequences are unknown. If you romanced Leliana, Zev, or were single, it gets better: just marry of Alistair and Anora, send Loghain to slay the archdemon and live happily ever after. Nobody loses.

I'd change the Destroy sacrifice to all Reaper tech but let the other two stand.

The DR is a weak spot I grant you, But when I did that ending, I thought long and hard about it, and then never again.

The ending I did where I sent Logain after the archdemon was the one where Morrigan was my LI.  I must be a masochist  because that was my favorite ending.

The point is:  Sacrifice shouldn't be to the point where it kills the game.  The player should have some say in where the balance can be struck.

[Dr_Extrem]

clennon8 wrote...

Yeah, it's really pretty easy to get a pain-free ending to DAO.

and i think most players are totally fine with it.

if you accept morrigans gift, there is always the possibility to start a new blight.

[jtav]

Because the sad truth is that if you really want to make the player feel sacrifice, you have to target party members/significant NPCs or the PC himself. Nobody cared about Thessia but they're still talking about Virmire.

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...
Nobody cared about Thessia

Well, I did but I was mostly rejoicing over the fact it was burning.

[jtav]

And the thing is that if you want a sacrifice theme you can't offer an out or the game becomes a puzzle on how yo get the golden option. What you should do is offer a menu options for the sacrifice but never let the player have everything. Tuchanka did this fairly well.

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

Because the sad truth is that if you really want to make the player feel sacrifice, you have to target party members/significant NPCs or the PC himself. Nobody cared about Thessia but they're still talking about Virmire.

yes .. and i felt a lot of sacrifice in me3 .. even before the endings ..

"does this unit have a soul"
"had to be me .. someone else might have gotten it wrong"

and thanes death (though foreseeable) hurt a lot as well.


at some point, it is enough ... i want to end a game with a good feeling .. even if the protagonist has to die. but the endings of mass effect 3 are hard to swallow.

to make the player feel the sacrifice, you have to target npsa, comrades and the avatar. but the same is true for possitive notes. the epilogue shows more or less, what is going to happen to the galaxy. the galaxy s**t on shepard for three games. i dont care about the galaxy - i care about the crew and my avatar.

the epilogue fells hollow to me, because it does not answer my questions. (crew and shepard)


the only ending, that fells like an actual ending to shepards story, is control. here, we see, what happens to shepard after the ending and that the shep-ai will watch over his/her old friends. this ending caters to my personal needs.

sadly, i dont choose control - reasons on page 12.

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

And the thing is that if you want a sacrifice theme you can't offer an out or the game becomes a puzzle on how yo get the golden option. What you should do is offer a menu options for the sacrifice but never let the player have everything. Tuchanka did this fairly well.

dragon age introduced the sacrifice theme very good.


we know from the very beginning, that gray warden leave everything behind - friends and family included.

soon after becoming the gray warden, we get the info, that wardens do not get very old and that they slowly turn into darkspawns themselves. all wardens, who do not die soon, go to the deeproads to find death.

later, alistair tells us, that wardens can not have offsprings.

right after meeting riordan, we get the info, that a warden has to sacrifice his/her life to kill the archdemon.


the theme of personal sacrifice is build up during the entire course of the game. the player can adjust to this possible outcome. in addition, the sacrifice fells not that bad, because the wardens life is going to be/end miserable anyway.


im mass effect 3, a player can get the feeling, that there is sacrifice involved but the series theme is about overcoming such odds - not embracing them.

there are two forces tearing at the player:
- sacrifices must be done - thane, legion, mordin, virmire ...
- odds are there to be overcome - shepard never gives up.

the theme of personal sacrifice was not really touched by the writers up to the end. it was superficially implicated - but thats all. that could have been teasing - the hero suffers greatly but gets redemption/payoff for his/her suffering in the end. i think, that was expected by a lot of people.

if you play the endings for the first time, you get the impression, that shep dies in all of the endings. that shepard apparently survives the destroy-variant, is only possitive from a metagaming perspective.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
TIM could have done it had he not been indoctrinated, which Shepard isn't. It's just that I'd rather not see TIM do it because he's a complete bastard.

...and of course Shepard doesn't sound indoctrinated in any way shape or form in the Control endings.

No, Shepard doesn't sound like TIM.  Or Harbinger.  Or Sovereign.  Or the Catalyst, for that matter.

But this isn't an IT thread - why are you bringing up indoctrination? 

Indeed she does not. There's a distinct lack of genocide advocacy.

I see plenty of genocide advocacy from you.  People who are actually opposed to genocide generally aren't very fanatical about saving genocidal supermonsters.  For some reason, you are.  Go figure.

Anyways, I'm glad everyone is talking about DAO.  Because that brings up an important point.  Think epilogue slides are absolute proof?  Look what BW did with DAO's epilogue slides.  When the next game rolled around, they said they're "rumor and hearsay" and threw them out.  Tons of stuff is just completely retconned.  So why are the epilogue slides reliable now?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I am here.

[Wayning_Star]

I wouldn't pick IT,nor control, cause TIM picked it.

Anderson represents destroy/payback/revenge.

Shep?, who knows. But the choices all represent a form of control...some better than others... maybe?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I wouldn't pick IT,nor control, cause TIM picked it.

Anderson represents destroy/payback/revenge.

Shep?, who knows. But the choices all represent a form of control...some better than others... maybe?

Anderson's one of those characters I like, but just about never agree with.

[Fur28]

i don´t choose control because i dont trust the spacekid, i dont trust any of the 3 choices, but since refusal, although awesome, feels like a lose, i prefer Destroy

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
TIM could have done it had he not been indoctrinated, which Shepard isn't. It's just that I'd rather not see TIM do it because he's a complete bastard.

...and of course Shepard doesn't sound indoctrinated in any way shape or form in the Control endings.

No, Shepard doesn't sound like TIM.  Or Harbinger.  Or Sovereign.  Or the Catalyst, for that matter.

But this isn't an IT thread - why are you bringing up indoctrination? 

Indeed she does not. There's a distinct lack of genocide advocacy.

Selective blindness again, Xilizhra?  This is a Control ending thread is it not?  Not your own, personal headcanon ending thread.

"Eternal, infinite, immortal.  The (wo)man I was knew these words, but only know do I truly understand them.  And only now do I comprehend the full potential of his(her) decision."

"Through his(her) death, I was created.  Through my birth, his(her) thoughts were freed.  They guide me now, give me reason, direction.  Just as (s)he gave direction to the ones who followed him(her), the ones who helped him(her) achieve his(her) purpose."

"Now, my purpose:"

"To provide the many with a powerful leader.  To put an end to the bickering of the many.  To ensure the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strength."

"The (wo)man I was knew that (s)he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.  There is power in con trol.  There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy."

"I will restore what the many have thought for.  I will lead an army that no-one will dare oppose.  I will protect, defend.  I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many."

"And throughout it all, I will never forget.  I will remember the ones that fought so that the many could survive.  And I will keep a watchful eye other those who live on.  Those who carry the memory of the (wo)man I once was.  The (wo)man who fought to become the one who could lead the many"

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:28 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

In what way is this different from what Shepard did as a human? Prevent wars, gun down bad guys, maybe do some fetch quests. Sounds good. Where's the problem?

[Rifneno]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

In what way is this different from what Shepard did as a human? Prevent wars, gun down bad guys, maybe do some fetch quests. Sounds good. Where's the problem?

I'd explain it, but I doubt you could hear it with your head stuck so far down in that sand.

[CronoDragoon]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

And, you know, throughout the series.

The problem exists in the unbelievable scale to which Shepard in Control can now do this without anyone to stop him, unlike when he was a human. But the basic philosophy applies.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:41 .