1388 réponses à ce sujet

[fr33stylez]

Bill Casey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Please try. Shepard has always imposed his morality on others. I just want to hear why that suddenly becomes a bad thing now that he can do it to more people at once.

It's the difference between being a moderate and an extremist...

Or the difference between the police and a police state. Or the military and a military-state.

[Eterna]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

That is only from Renegade control. 

I still don't see why people feel as though stopping Warmongers from being wafrmngers is a bad thing. Would you really feel upset if you and everybody else lost the ability to wage war? If War was no longer needed?

Modifié par Eterna5, 21 décembre 2012 - 10:05 .

[Ledgend1221]

Because control missed out on the only reason to take it.
To hear Shepard saying "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!" and possessing harbinger.

[Dr_Extrem]

Eterna5 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

That is only from Renegade control. 

I still don't see why people feel as though stopping Warmongers from being wafrmngers is a bad thing. Would you really feel upset if you and everybody else lost the ability to wage war? If War was no longer needed?

is it just to kill a person before he/she commits a crime?

that is not how our society works. we punish, after someone does something wrong and it is the community, who punishes a part of itself - not an outsider. we do this, because we can not know, if the person, who is about to do something wrong, turns away from the endevor in the last moment.

we punish the crime done - not the ability to do it.

it is not a perfect system - but it works.


you can not stop war by killing people - it starts them.

(after shepard in me1, on sarens actions during andersons spectre assessment)

[Iakus]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

That is only from Renegade control. 

I still don't see why people feel as though stopping Warmongers from being wafrmngers is a bad thing. Would you really feel upset if you and everybody else lost the ability to wage war? If War was no longer needed?

is it just to kill a person before he/she commits a crime?

that is not how our society works. we punish, after someone does something wrong and it is the community, who punishes a part of itself - not an outsider. we do this, because we can not know, if the person, who is about to do something wrong, turns away from the endevor in the last moment.

we punish the crime done - not the ability to do it.

it is not a perfect system - but it works.


you can not stop war by killing people - it starts them.

(after shepard in me1, on sarens actions during andersons spectre assessment)

You know, I watched the finale to Burn Notice, and Sam Axe had a really good point about this whole "whatever it takes" line of thought:

"You have good intentions, but you do enough bad things, you become the bad guy"

That pretty much sums up ME3's endings in general.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

That is only from Renegade control. 

I still don't see why people feel as though stopping Warmongers from being wafrmngers is a bad thing. Would you really feel upset if you and everybody else lost the ability to wage war? If War was no longer needed?

is it just to kill a person before he/she commits a crime?

that is not how our society works. we punish, after someone does something wrong and it is the community, who punishes a part of itself - not an outsider. we do this, because we can not know, if the person, who is about to do something wrong, turns away from the endevor in the last moment.

we punish the crime done - not the ability to do it.

it is not a perfect system - but it works.


you can not stop war by killing people - it starts them.

(after shepard in me1, on sarens actions during andersons spectre assessment)

You know, I watched the finale to Burn Notice, and Sam Axe had a really good point about this whole "whatever it takes" line of thought:

"You have good intentions, but you do enough bad things, you become the bad guy"

That pretty much sums up ME3's endings in general.

But none ofthe ending makes Shepard the bad guy.

[dreman9999]

fr33stylez wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Please try. Shepard has always imposed his morality on others. I just want to hear why that suddenly becomes a bad thing now that he can do it to more people at once.

It's the difference between being a moderate and an extremist...

Or the difference between the police and a police state. Or the military and a military-state.

We have yet to even see how Shepard applies his/her power.

[Rifneno]

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Please try. Shepard has always imposed his morality on others. I just want to hear why that suddenly becomes a bad thing now that he can do it to more people at once.

It's the difference between being a moderate and an extremist...

Or the difference between the police and a police state. Or the military and a military-state.

We have yet to even see how Shepard applies his/her power.

Shepard is dead.  There's a Reaper running around with data extracted from any idiot Shepard who thought it was a good idea to upload into a Reaper.  Nothing more.  The dialogue makes this abundantly clear.  Controllers really to stop kidding themselves with all the "what Shepard will do".  Shepard is dead.

[Ticonderoga117]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
My only concern for the 'Die' or 'Power Down' or other de facto suicidal behavior commands that destroy the Reapers is that they effectively provide all the benefits of the Destroy Option, with none of the consequences. At which point, unless you really hate all AI, why bother?

In order to make the Crucible a balanced choice setup, each option needs to have a cost of its own and to not provide the same benefits of the others. For Control in particular, a limitation on the scope of control 'We can not self-terminate' or 'We will defend ourselves' is what would keep it from being effectively the Destroy option without costs.


That said, the cost doesn't have to be Shepard's life in particular, and some of those options you gave are pretty good in the balance of reward and risk. Punting, as you pointed out, doesn't necessarily resolve the problem. Telling them to Obey Shepard is not only a risk for Shepard's corruption, but also a question of what will happen if/when Shepard dies. 'Protect Us' is filled with risk, because the Reapers already believed themselves to be our salvation through destruction. (Maybe a command of 'be our salvation without destruction?')

So add more illogic so that the ending is balanced?! That makes no sense from an in-universe view. If Shepard is able to fully control the Reapers, then shutting them down, flying them off to nowhere, or what have you is perfectly feasible. Why? Because you bloody take control of them! If there is an "off" button, then I'm going to complain if the off button is full of BS like the Destroy option. It's stupid.

[jtav]

Not if you believe that memory and thought are identity, that replicating them is replicating Shepard. That thing is Shepard, if Shepard were vastly more intelligent, with near godlike abilities.

[dreman9999]

Rifneno wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Please try. Shepard has always imposed his morality on others. I just want to hear why that suddenly becomes a bad thing now that he can do it to more people at once.

It's the difference between being a moderate and an extremist...

Or the difference between the police and a police state. Or the military and a military-state.

We have yet to even see how Shepard applies his/her power.

Shepard is dead.  There's a Reaper running around with data extracted from any idiot Shepard who thought it was a good idea to upload into a Reaper.  Nothing more.  The dialogue makes this abundantly clear.  Controllers really to stop kidding themselves with all the "what Shepard will do".  Shepard is dead.

Shepard is no longer human. Not dead. The dialogue only shows thatShepoardis just no longer human.

[clennon8]

lolwut. Shepard dies in the Control ending. He's stone dead. Not resting. Not stunned. Not pining for the fjords. Seriously, can we all get on the same plane of existence here?

[Rifneno]

dreman9999 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Please try. Shepard has always imposed his morality on others. I just want to hear why that suddenly becomes a bad thing now that he can do it to more people at once.

It's the difference between being a moderate and an extremist...

Or the difference between the police and a police state. Or the military and a military-state.

We have yet to even see how Shepard applies his/her power.

Shepard is dead.  There's a Reaper running around with data extracted from any idiot Shepard who thought it was a good idea to upload into a Reaper.  Nothing more.  The dialogue makes this abundantly clear.  Controllers really to stop kidding themselves with all the "what Shepard will do".  Shepard is dead.

Shepard is no longer human. Not dead. The dialogue only shows thatShepoardis just no longer human.

"Through his/her death, I was created."

Headcanon it all you want.  Control Shepard is dead.  Hope the rest of the galaxy's sake that the monster you created doesn't decide to harvest them.

[Someone With Mass]

dreman9999 wrote...
Shepard is no longer human. Not dead. The dialogue only shows thatShepoardis just no longer human.

I'm pretty sure the AI says that through Shepard's death was it able to become something more or something along those lines.

So, yeah. Shep's dead.

[Rifneno]

clennon8 wrote...

lolwut. Shepard dies in the Control ending. He's stone dead. Not resting. Not stunned. Not pining for the fjords. Seriously, can we all get on the same plane of existence here?

I know, right?

"Catalyst": Yes, but he could never have taken control... because we already controlled him.
Shepard: But I can...
"Catalyst": You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have.

Oh yeah, he's totally alive.  Jesus, and they tell us IT'ers that we're the ones kidding ourselves?

Modifié par Rifneno, 21 décembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Please try. Shepard has always imposed his morality on others. I just want to hear why that suddenly becomes a bad thing now that he can do it to more people at once.

It's the difference between being a moderate and an extremist...

Or the difference between the police and a police state. Or the military and a military-state.

We have yet to even see how Shepard applies his/her power.

Shepard is dead.  There's a Reaper running around with data extracted from any idiot Shepard who thought it was a good idea to upload into a Reaper.  Nothing more.  The dialogue makes this abundantly clear.  Controllers really to stop kidding themselves with all the "what Shepard will do".  Shepard is dead.

Shepard is no longer human. Not dead. The dialogue only shows thatShepoardis just no longer human.

well .. getting vapourised by electric current, fits the definition of being dead. whatever was given birth after sheps death, is no longer shepard - shepard would not talk of him/herself like of another person.

it is something new - the epilogue is clear.

[Dr_Extrem]

iakus wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Put an end to the bickering of the many.  Destroy those who threaten the future of the many.  No, no unpleasant implications at all, are there?

Only in Control, Xilizhra.  ONLY in Control.

That is only from Renegade control. 

I still don't see why people feel as though stopping Warmongers from being wafrmngers is a bad thing. Would you really feel upset if you and everybody else lost the ability to wage war? If War was no longer needed?

is it just to kill a person before he/she commits a crime?

that is not how our society works. we punish, after someone does something wrong and it is the community, who punishes a part of itself - not an outsider. we do this, because we can not know, if the person, who is about to do something wrong, turns away from the endevor in the last moment.

we punish the crime done - not the ability to do it.

it is not a perfect system - but it works.


you can not stop war by killing people - it starts them.

(after shepard in me1, on sarens actions during andersons spectre assessment)

You know, I watched the finale to Burn Notice, and Sam Axe had a really good point about this whole "whatever it takes" line of thought:

"You have good intentions, but you do enough bad things, you become the bad guy"

That pretty much sums up ME3's endings in general.

if you gaze into the abyss long enough, the abyss also gazes into you.

[jtav]

clennon8 wrote...

lolwut. Shepard dies in the Control ending. He's stone dead. Not resting. Not stunned. Not pining for the fjords. Seriously, can we all get on the same plane of existence here?

It's...a little more complicated than that. Shepard dies, but the stuff that makes him "him" continues in an altered form. Effectively, he's gone to an AI afterlife. If I got hit by a truck and came back as a ghost with some powers, I'd be dead but you wouldn't think of me as gone in the usual sense and I'd have a case for considering myself the same person as before.

Modifié par jtav, 21 décembre 2012 - 11:10 .

[Rifneno]

jtav wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

lolwut. Shepard dies in the Control ending. He's stone dead. Not resting. Not stunned. Not pining for the fjords. Seriously, can we all get on the same plane of existence here?

It's...a little more complicated than that. Shepard dies, but the stuff that makes him "him" continues in an altered form. Effectively, he's gone to an AI afterlife. If I got hit by a truck and came back as a ghost with some powers, I'd be dead but you wouldn't think of me as gone in the usual sense and I'd have a case for considering myself the same person as before.

No, it's pretty damn simple.  Shepard stupided himself to death and now he's part of a Reaper.  No different than the colonists and the giant baby terminator in ME2, except that they at least didn't do it to themselves because the Reapers told them it was totally a good idea.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

He's dead. His thoughts and memories and are somehow transferred to the reapers, but he's still dead.

[Someone With Mass]

It'll go well until the AI starts thinking too much about the problem and finds the root of that problem (that being the conflicts caused by various species or factions) and tries to get rid of it.

At which point, it's gone full circle.

I'd feel a little safer if it wasn't for the fact that pretty much every AI in the Mass Effect universe has been causing collateral damage one way or the other. Even EDI is guilty.

Well, that and I don't think that handing the world/galaxy over on a silver platter to an AI like in most movies where such a move usually ends with a nuclear war is a good idea.

[dreman9999]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

He's dead. His thoughts and memories and are somehow transferred to the reapers, but he's still dead.

His body is. The body is not an indication of a person being dead. The body can be alive with the person being declared dead. This is call amnesia and brain death.

[dreman9999]

Rifneno wrote...

jtav wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

lolwut. Shepard dies in the Control ending. He's stone dead. Not resting. Not stunned. Not pining for the fjords. Seriously, can we all get on the same plane of existence here?

It's...a little more complicated than that. Shepard dies, but the stuff that makes him "him" continues in an altered form. Effectively, he's gone to an AI afterlife. If I got hit by a truck and came back as a ghost with some powers, I'd be dead but you wouldn't think of me as gone in the usual sense and I'd have a case for considering myself the same person as before.

No, it's pretty damn simple.  Shepard stupided himself to death and now he's part of a Reaper.  No different than the colonists and the giant baby terminator in ME2, except that they at least didn't do it to themselves because the Reapers told them it was totally a good idea.

It worked and the reapers stopped Reaping. You can stay it's stupid to do if it works.
Shepard body is dead but he is alive with his thoughts and menories being alive as an AI.

[dreman9999]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It'll go well until the AI starts thinking too much about the problem and finds the root of that problem (that being the conflicts caused by various species or factions) and tries to get rid of it.

At which point, it's gone full circle.

I'd feel a little safer if it wasn't for the fact that pretty much every AI in the Mass Effect universe has been causing collateral damage one way or the other. Even EDI is guilty.

Well, that and I don't think that handing the world/galaxy over on a silver platter to an AI like in most movies where such a move usually ends with a nuclear war is a good idea.

Your missing the causeof the problem.Thecatalyst only did what it did because he was programed to. It is a shackled AI. The Shepard ai has free will.

[clennon8]

Rifneno wrote...

jtav wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

lolwut. Shepard dies in the Control ending. He's stone dead. Not resting. Not stunned. Not pining for the fjords. Seriously, can we all get on the same plane of existence here?

It's...a little more complicated than that. Shepard dies, but the stuff that makes him "him" continues in an altered form. Effectively, he's gone to an AI afterlife. If I got hit by a truck and came back as a ghost with some powers, I'd be dead but you wouldn't think of me as gone in the usual sense and I'd have a case for considering myself the same person as before.

No, it's pretty damn simple.  Shepard stupided himself to death and now he's part of a Reaper.  No different than the colonists and the giant baby terminator in ME2, except that they at least didn't do it to themselves because the Reapers told them it was totally a good idea.

This. 

Also, +10 Approval for using "stupid" as a verb.

Modifié par clennon8, 21 décembre 2012 - 11:30 .