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Why don't more people choose Control?


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#1176
The Heretic of Time

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Madecologist wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I actually wrote that...

You kind of can make the same arguement for Refuse. Sure Refuse is the moral high road and Shepard can keep his honour and dignity against the immoral choices given to him by the Catalyst (assuming that is your view when you take Refuse), you will also see that this stance dooms everyone in this cycle. They will be free, but dead... all of them.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Sorry, but 'Refuse', 'honor' and 'dignity' are 3 words that simply do not go well together in 1 sentence.  :lol:

You did an error in the quote editting, I said that and not Bill Casey.

Incidently I actually agree with you. Hence why the comment was in tandem with the immorality of Synthesis. That Refuse has exactly the same level of immorality in my book. I thought my comment was cynical enough as is ;).


My apologies. I didn't realize I f*cked up.

I did not spot sarcasm in your post, but I'm glad to hear you agree with me on Refuse.

#1177
PinkysPain

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...
By your logic, my Shepard must have been indoctrinated from the very beginning of ME3. If my Shepard truly controlled himself, he would never go against TIM the way he did in ME3. He would rather support TIM and help TIM to find out how to gain Control over the reapers.

I never got that far into the single player game ...

#1178
The Heretic of Time

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PinkysPain wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
By your logic, my Shepard must have been indoctrinated from the very beginning of ME3. If my Shepard truly controlled himself, he would never go against TIM the way he did in ME3. He would rather support TIM and help TIM to find out how to gain Control over the reapers.

I never got that far into the single player game ...


You mean you haven't played ME3? Then what are you doing here? :lol:

#1179
Madecologist

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There is an old quote.

"Honour is what causes good men to die."
"... or causes bad men to send good men to die."

Or something like that.

As for why so many Paragons also choose Destroy, my guess is two fold. The first is what I touched into an essay a while back. All the choices feel like 'bad' (as in immoral) choices. So Paragon and Renegade goes out the window and you end up choosing the one decision that seems less bad. Some people do find merit in one of the three choices, but to me it was always 'pick the lesser of 3 evils'.

My second guess, when presented by a bad scenario and one scenario is only bad because it kills someone different, someone that is not you or your own (human or the race of your LI)... most people will settle for that option. It is not even about Synthetic versus Organic, it literally is about them versus us.

A good way to look at it is if we didn't have the reconcile option, and you -had- to choose between Quarians and Geth. I am pretty sure everyone who takes Destroy would also take Quarian over Geth as well if they were forced to, they just do that choice later. Unless you sadistic and choose the Geth just to get rid of the Quarians but then have no qualms about sacrificing the Geth.... now that is cold. I know a few that would do that actually.

Modifié par Madecologist, 23 décembre 2012 - 01:20 .


#1180
Eterna

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Destroy is not Paragon. It is sacrificing innocents to accomplish the mission without taking the harder route to ensure everyone survives.

It has that "Complete the mission at any cost' factor, which is inherently renegade.

#1181
Madecologist

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I think that was the question. Destroy does seem like a natural Renegade choice, however it seems to be a popular choice amongst the Paragon Sheps too. So... it is no wonder some of us wonder why.

#1182
Eterna

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Madecologist wrote...

I think that was the question. Destroy does seem like a natural Renegade choice, however it seems to be a popular choice amongst the Paragon Sheps too. So... it is no wonder some of us wonder why.


I think for no other reason than: "the reapers are dead, that must be Paragon!"

The mind can justify silly things. 

#1183
Bill Casey

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Refuse is the only Paragon option...
Everything else is completely monstrous...

#1184
Nerevar-as

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Madecologist wrote...

There is an old quote.

"Honour is what causes good men to die."
"... or causes bad men to send good men to die."

Or something like that.

As for why so many Paragons also choose Destroy, my guess is two fold. The first is what I touched into an essay a while back. All the choices feel like 'bad' (as in immoral) choices. So Paragon and Renegade goes out the window and you end up choosing the one decision that seems less bad. Some people do find merit in one of the three choices, but to me it was always 'pick the lesser of 3 evils'.

My second guess, when presented by a bad scenario and one scenario is only bad because it kills someone different, someone that is not you or your own (human or the race of your LI)... most people will settle for that option. It is not even about Synthetic versus Organic, it literally is about them versus us.

A good way to look at it is if we didn't have the reconcile option, and you -had- to choose between Quarians and Geth. I am pretty sure everyone who takes Destroy would also take Quarian over Geth as well if they were forced to, they just do that choice later. Unless you sadistic and choose the Geth just to get rid of the Quarians but then have no qualms about sacrificing the Geth.... now that is cold. I know a few that would do that actually.


It´s not always about sadism. I found the quarians would have brought their fate on themeselves, and at the end they force the situation even more. It´s genocide either way, and I´m not siding with the agressor. Good thing I got the peace option - which basically consists of overruling an idiot too willing to fight to bother listening to the one who knows how it´s going to end.

Then along come the endings, and as I see Control as Big Brother is watching (with God like power and perceptions, something the original Shepard didn´t have and no idea how it´s going to affect the ShepAIrd),  Synthesis as including brainwashing along with all other marvelous things, and Refuse kills them all... that left Destroy.

#1185
StayFrosty05

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............EDIT...........

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

First of all, that is false: Synthesis is advocated as the only option that end the reaper thread for once and for all. However, Control and Destroy also both seem to succesfully end the reaper thread.

Second: That train of reasoning is more fitting for a Renegade. The Renegade killed the Rachni queen because it's the only option that will certainly end the Rachni threat for once and for all. The Renegade sabotaged the genophage cure because it's the only way to know for certain that the Krogan won't mass-breed and overtake the galaxy at one point. It's the reason why Renegade destroys the heretic geth instead of rewriting them. It's the reason why Renegade kills the Zhu's Hope colonists instead of sparing them. It's why the Renegade rather sacrifices the Council to go directly after Sovereign. Etc. etc. etc.

A Renagade is clearly capable and willing to commit autrocities for the greater good. Renegade solutions are pragmatic solutions that sometimes requires great sacrifices, such as commiting genocide on the geth, to make sure the goal is met swiftly, smoothly and most of all, thouroughly.

A Paragon simply isn't like that. Paragons are more willing to take risks for the greater good. Paragons are more willing to give people, species or situations the benefit of the doubt. The Paragon gives the Rachni queen the benefit of the doubt and releases her, fully realizing it might bite him in the ass later. The Paragon gives the krogan the benefit of the doubt and cures the genophage. The Paragon gives the geth the benefit of the doubt. He gives the Council the benefit of the doubt and is even willing to risk a reaper invasion (Sovereign opening to Citadel relay) for the sake of saving this Council.


I'm telling you, Destroy is totally not in line with the general Paragon train of thought. Control is much closer to the Paragon train of thought. Synthesis is also rather Paragon.


It makes me wonder though: Most Paragons refuse to choose Synthesis on the basis that it changes everyone against their will. But what about Destroy? You're about to commit genocide on an entire species against their will. How is this okay and Synthesis isn't? Following this logic, Control would be the most suitable option for you. From this perspective, Control seems to be the most Paragon of all options.


Something I posted earlier, stating my views on what 'Synthesis' is:

Synthesis: Rape of the natural world and condemnation to disfigurement and removal of freedom of choice for all life eternally.
Control: An eternity of I can trust myself never to corrupt and become the eternal Dictator with big guns....BullSh*t!
Refuse: Condemn's everyone to death for what?
Destroy:
Yes, it comes with horrific genocide of one entire species...but what
other choice is there?....It ends the reaper threat once and for all,
for all life and all life to come.

As for the Reapers and Heretic Geth, there's an old saying I feel fits perfectly here..."I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees".....I think you are mis-undertanding mostly Paragon ideals....sometimes destruction is the best choice....being Paragon doesn't mean you simply roll over....Then again I do think BW didn't know what they were talking about half the time either.....I don't see it as a Paragon choice to force survival on others at the cost of their own freedom of choice, that sounds a whole lot more like fascism and dictatorship to me.

The Rachni Queen...she is the last of her kind....complete Genocide is a crucial decision to make....yes, I know Destroy leads to Genocide also, but the whole Galaxies continued existance isn't relying on the life or death of the Queen....it's a whole nother level....She like many other victims deserves the benefit of the doubt, same goes for the Zhus Hope inhabitants....it's a matter of choosing the lesser of the two (or four) evils....And so the Queen and Zhus Hope inhabitants are a chance needing to be taken....EDIT....By the time Shep comes in contact with these people and the rachnii Queen, he is aware of Indoctrination/Control whether by Reapers or Thorian, this changes perspective and choices.

EDIT:
The Genophage....I admit you have me over a barrel on that one....I am uncomfortable with both options and am still thinking about it....I don't trust the Krogan, but at the same time too I find the alternative deception so utterly reprehensible and disgusting, I'm stuck on this one.

The Council is simply a matter of forward planning....Yes, Sovereign is an immediate threat at the time....but if the Reapers do get through Galactic stability takes precedence....if all the Species can't work together as a cohesive and co-operative unit, the galaxy is f*cked...the Council is actually a desperately needed asset to keep the Species all working together.

EDIT: Due to the whole Paragon/Renegde design being an artificial construct of a fictional gaming system...it is difficult to assign a real world ethical stance on the senerios, the game assigns a black and white scorecard to your desicions (like a preset moral code) unlike the murky, uncomfortable, real world situational ethics that will never leave you with a satisfactory feeling or real answer.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 23 décembre 2012 - 02:52 .


#1186
Nerevar-as

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Eterna5 wrote...

Destroy is not Paragon. It is sacrificing innocents to accomplish the mission without taking the harder route to ensure everyone survives.

It has that "Complete the mission at any cost' factor, which is inherently renegade.


What harder route? Taking the One Ring, believing a gibberish anybody with High School level knowledge knows it´s nonsense, or refuse to accept anything and get everybody killed?. I must admit that without metagaming I´d likely do the latter...

#1187
Madecologist

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Perhaps Sadism was too strong world. You explain a context such a decision could actually progress naturally and the motives were not malicious in origin. You just end up with two tough choices that ends up with a very chilling outcome.

Still someone will either have to be cold as stone or have some really rough nights for the rest of their lives after such an outcome.

Modifié par Madecologist, 23 décembre 2012 - 01:45 .


#1188
Nerevar-as

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Madecologist wrote...

Perhaps Sadism was too strong world. You explain a context such a decision could actually progress naturally and the motives were not malicious in origin. You just end up with two tough choices that ends up with a very chilling outcome.

Still someone will either have to be cold as stone or have some really rough nights for the rest of their lives after such an outcome.


The ending left me surprisingly depressed for days (and it felt really stupid to feel that down over a videogame), didn´t expect such a 180º from the tone of the saga in the last 5 min. Good thing I got Human Revolution shortly afterwards.

#1189
d-boy15

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This thread is turn out to be nothing but an attempt to get revenge against destroyer who
always bashing synthesis and control.

why don't you just tell us that you think we choose it to save our shepard and hope for a
little blue children or something like that? that would make thing easier.

#1190
Eterna

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Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon option...
Everything else is completely monstrous...


It's coming to the point where all I can do is roll my eyes at you. 

#1191
StayFrosty05

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Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon option...
Everything else is completely monstrous...


I really don't understand your reasoning in this regard.....Refuse is condemning everyone to death for what exactly?

#1192
Eterna

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StayFrosty05 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon option...
Everything else is completely monstrous...


I really don't understand your reasoning in this regard.....Refuse is condemning everyone to death for what exactly?


So that Bill Casey can die wih his ****ed up morality intact. 

"I'm not going to sacrifice any of my ideals, so yall going to die!"

#1193
d-boy15

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keep telling yourself the ending you choose is paragon if that make you feel better...

but paragon/renegade is just a colors, peoples have different moral view and think of it differently.

#1194
JeffZero

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Too busy picking Synthesis most of the time, but I dabble in Control on occasion, yes.

#1195
Warlord_Thuran

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I avoided control and chose destroy because I did not believe that anyone should have complete control over the galaxy and if I ended up using the reapers to force my view unto the others, I was no better than the illusive man. Sure the races could end up destroying each other, but the important thing was that they had the FREEDOM to chose, and just as importantly destroy was the only way to truly make sure I had ended this once and for all (although someone could make new reapers in the future). Also, losing all tech, little loss (bit unclear if the geth were included since they had become alive during the story, and iirc they appeared during the epilogue.). But the deciding factor that made me chose destroy over synthesis was also the same; it would cause everyone to lose their identity and change them into something else, and I must admit, it was thinking of Tali that made me go over there and shoot it to pieces, ensure that she had a future.

In the end, it was an ethical decision; that it is better for people to have the freedom to hurt themselves, than live in a false peace due to being in fear of some tyrant.

#1196
The Heretic of Time

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Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon option...


So playing full Paragon means playing a foolish ******? I'm glad you agree.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 23 décembre 2012 - 02:34 .


#1197
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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I agree with Heretic_Hanar's evaluation of the endings and Paragon/Renegade alignment; I've never met a Renegade who didn't pick Control or Destroy.

And Destroy follows in the footsteps of other similar Renegade choices, like killing the rachni.

#1198
Seboist

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Destroy ironically leaves the Reapers fully intact allowing them to be picked apart and studied. That and Control are wins for Renegade.

Synthesis OTOH is Ed Wood level derp and Refuse is the dumbest choice in the series(and top it off the next cycle beats the reapers with the derpcible anyways).

#1199
Guest_wiggles_*

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Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon option...
Everything else is completely monstrous...

No. Allowing everyone in the galaxy to be wiped out just so that you can preserve your honour and ideals is monstrous, something that only the most craven individual would do.

#1200
Iakus

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wiggles89 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is the only Paragon option...
Everything else is completely monstrous...

No. Allowing everyone in the galaxy to be wiped out just so that you can preserve your honour and ideals is monstrous, something that only the most craven individual would do.


All th eendings are monstrous, imo.  The only question is how monstrous are they in relation to each other.