168 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Developers voted Baldur's Gate the best video game of all time just a few years ago. But it is impossible for a company to make a Bladur's Gate again - the budget for the amount of dialogue and voice acting would bankrupt it. Similarly, a 3D environment for all the different maps and locations, and for all the various spells and effects the game did, would burn a similar hole in modern gaming's development resources. 

Which is a damn shame since people would prefer voice acting and cinematic gameplay over content. Just exploring every map in Baldur's Gate takes a crap load of time and I love it. 

[MerinTB]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...
It is going to be 2013 people..

Yes, because new=better and made recent is better than made long ago.

I'll take Casablanca over The Vow, Duck Soup over The Dictator, Seven Samurai over Battleship...

New doesn't beat old just because it's new.

I could list books, games and more... but the point is made.

"This is 2013, you must like stuff made now, old is bad" is about as moronic an argument as can be made.  The quality of something is independent of WHEN it was made, especially for art and entertainment media.

Unless your sole focus is the tech used to make something.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Baldur's Gate? What's that? I was talking about Bladur's Gate, the RPG where you have to find bathrooms constantly.

[lyleoffmyspace]

P:E is going to sacrifice the cinematic style of DA but there will be increased gameplay and story depth because of it.

We'll just have to see what happens with each one. I bought Origins full price, but waited for DA2 to come down in price before buying it because I didn't like the way it was going. I've preordered P:E. however. DA2, whilst a rushed job like many of Obsidians game, didn't have the great gameplay elements and story elements present in NWN2 and KoTOR2 (the two Obsidian games I've played and enjoyed).

Plus the backdrop of old Infinity Engine games still looks great nowadays. If the characters had better animations (one aspect which P:E doesn't seem to be scrimping on) then they will look amazing, despite not being in full 3D.

I personally think Torchlight looks way better than DA2 anyway, despite the isometriccamera.

Modifié par lyleoffmyspace, 20 décembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[Maria Caliban]

Skelter192 wrote...

Which is a damn shame since people would prefer voice acting and cinematic gameplay over content. Just exploring every map in Baldur's Gate takes a crap load of time and I love it. 

Voice acting and cinematic gameplay are content.

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Which is a damn shame since people would prefer voice acting and cinematic gameplay over content. Just exploring every map in Baldur's Gate takes a crap load of time and I love it. 

Voice acting and cinematic gameplay are content.

Yep.

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Which is a damn shame since people would prefer voice acting and cinematic gameplay over content. Just exploring every map in Baldur's Gate takes a crap load of time and I love it. 

Voice acting and cinematic gameplay are content.

Yep.

Bloated content. The amount of resources to create one cutscene could create entire quest lines, characters and dialogue in a lower-tech design. 

[lyleoffmyspace]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Which is a damn shame since people would prefer voice acting and cinematic gameplay over content. Just exploring every map in Baldur's Gate takes a crap load of time and I love it. 

Voice acting and cinematic gameplay are content.

Yep.

I'd rather have more gameplay to actually play, than cut-scenes which are ineviatably skipped on multple playthroughs.

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Bloated content. The amount of resources to create one cutscene could create entire quest lines, characters and dialogue in a lower-tech design. 

By entirely different people.  Not all zots are the same.  That's asking BioWare to fire the John Eplers and hire more David Gaiders.  Likewise it can be argued a large environment that isn't dense in "content" - eg, huge areas of games that feature exploration such as Skyrim - is "bloated" content, by people who do not value exploration in games.

"I do not like it and do not appreciate it as much as [insert preference here]" does not mean that something is not content, nor does it mean that it is "bloat" for everyone.

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

I'd rather have more gameplay to actually play, than cut-scenes which are ineviatably skipped on multple playthroughs.

How did "voiceovers" and "cinematics" become "cutscenes?"  I see you moving the goalposts.   

When I command my protagonist to respond angrily to another character, and in a cinematic sequence I witness him responding angrily, this is content.  This is gameplay.  

Not to mention, if "can and will be skipped upon replay" rules out gameplay, then the fact I've occasionally used killallhostiles to get through combat on replays means that must not be gameplay either.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Fast Jimmy]

<sigh>

Fine, Shorts. You're right. Animations, voice overs and artists all work for free and certainly wouldn't limit the amount of content, as opposed to just adding more text into a conversation parser like what we see in IE games.

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

<sigh>

Fine, Shorts. You're right. Animations, voice overs and artists all work for free and certainly wouldn't limit the amount of content, as opposed to just adding more text into a conversation parser like what we see in IE games.

That is completely the opposite of what I said.

Do you think writers work for free?  Environment artists?  Level designers?  You know the people who make "content" you value more?  

I don't think paying a voice actor, or a cinematic designer is wasted money.  Apparently you do.

<sigh>

Fine, Fast Jimmy.  You're right.  Everything I like is bloated content and everything you like is good content.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2012 - 07:45 .

[hoorayforicecream]

They should make more content that I like, and not make content that I don't like, because content I like is good, and content I don't like is not worth making. People who disagree with me are clearly wrong, and their opinions do not matter, because I do not like the content they like and therefore it is not worth making.

[PinkDiamondstl]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They should make more content that I like, and not make content that I don't like, because content I like is good, and content I don't like is not worth making. People who disagree with me are clearly wrong, and their opinions do not matter, because I do not like the content they like and therefore it is not worth making.

 
That's my moto.

Modifié par PinkDiamondstl, 20 décembre 2012 - 07:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

Doesn't selfishness require you be self-centered by definition?

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They should make more content that I like, and not make content that I don't like, because content I like is good, and content I don't like is not worth making. People who disagree with me are clearly wrong, and their opinions do not matter, because I do not like the content they like and therefore it is not worth making.

^
*Image removed per Site Rule #6*

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 21 décembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[Wozearly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

When I command my protagonist to respond angrily to another character,
and in a cinematic sequence I witness him responding angrily, this is
content.  This is gameplay. 

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Bloated content. The amount of resources to create one cutscene could create entire quest lines, characters and dialogue in a lower-tech design. 

Completely agree with you point, Shorts, but I'm more with Jimmy on this one.

Depending on the engine and associated costs (e.g. voice acting), the expense to craft cinematic responses (particularly of the cutscene variety) can be pretty significant. SWTOR is not noticeably larger than comparable MMOs, but its costs were stratospheric in comparison. The voice acting and cinematics do, presumably, play a huge role in that.

If any game takes the DA2 route of making those fairly expensive elements relatively commonplace, then that has an incredible impact on everything else. The likelihood is that the game will be shorter, the opportunities for branching paths fewer and the conversations more linear. DA2 is rather a case in point.

Is this a problem? Not if you rate those features more highly than the content that has to be sacrificed, not at all. But if you don't feel they add enough value to justify the overweighted impact they have on other aspects of the game due to the financial implications, the 'bloat' comment is entirely justified, even if it is somewhat controversial.

There is no right or wrong answer. Simply different preferences as to how people would like their zots allocated. I'd personally go for the expanded 'other' content over cinematics and voice-acted NPCs every time, no hesitation.

[upsettingshorts]

Wozearly wrote...

Depending on the engine and associated costs (e.g. voice acting), the expense to craft cinematic responses (particularly of the cutscene variety) can be pretty significant. SWTOR is not noticeably larger than comparable MMOs, but its costs were stratospheric in comparison. The voice acting and cinematics do, presumably, play a huge role in that.

I did not say anywhere that voice acting and cinematics did not cost anything.

I am saying that whatever it costs, I appreciate them.  

This includes SWTOR.  For all its numerous faults, it is the first and only MMO I've ever played that managed to make me care about mindless MMO-style quests.  How?  Cinematics and voice acting provided context and emotional and narrative weight.  I do not expect everyone felt this way, but that's not relevant to my own experience and preferences.

Wozearly wrote...

If any game takes the DA2 route of making those fairly expensive elements relatively commonplace, then that has an incredible impact on everything else. The likelihood is that the game will be shorter, the opportunities for branching paths fewer and the conversations more linear. DA2 is rather a case in point.

DA2 is not really an example of any of this except the shorter game part.  Which can just as easily be attributed to the stunted development cycle.

Wozearly wrote...

Is this a problem? Not if you rate those features more highly than the content that has to be sacrificed, not at all.

This is essentially my point.  The reverse is, of course, also true.  I do not value the things you and Fast Jimmy would allege cinamtics compromise as highly as you do, if at all.

Wozearly wrote...

But if you don't feel they add enough value to justify the overweighted impact they have on other aspects of the game due to the financial implications, the 'bloat' comment is entirely justified, even if it is somewhat controversial.

There is no right or wrong answer. Simply different preferences as to how people would like their zots allocated. I'd personally go for the expanded 'other' content over cinematics and voice-acted NPCs every time, no hesitation. 

I am only arguing that "bloat" in the context of this argument is the very definition of subjective.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[Roflbox]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Which is a damn shame since people would prefer voice acting and cinematic gameplay over content. Just exploring every map in Baldur's Gate takes a crap load of time and I love it. 

Voice acting and cinematic gameplay are content.

Righ right ofcourse they are but gimme more quests, characters and reactivity and less voice acting and cinematics. 

"I don't enjoy doing cinematic conversations for a variety of reasons, but I have done them as part of my job."
Avellone described three main issues: first, that it disrupts his design process; second, his personal preference in terms of role-playing; and third, that their hard work that may not bear fruit."

Modifié par Roflbox, 20 décembre 2012 - 08:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

Roflbox wrote...

Righ right ofcourse they are but gimme more quests, characters and reactivity and less voice acting and cinematics.

Ironically, voice acting and cinematics falls neatly into precisely how I'd define reactivity.

[continues to fly huge red "It's subjective" flag]

Roflbox wrote...

"I don't enjoy doing cinematic conversations for a variety of reasons, but I have done them as part of my job."
Avellone described three main issues: first, that it disrupts his design process; second, his personal preference in terms of role-playing; and third, that their hard work that may not bear fruit."

Chris Avellone's design process, his preference in terms of roleplaying, and his estimation of his own team's success in cinematics is not BioWare's design process, preference in terms of roleplaying, or estimation of their success in cinematics.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[Wozearly]

Maria Caliban wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They should make more content that I like, and not make content that I don't like, because content I like is good, and content I don't like is not worth making. People who disagree with me are clearly wrong, and their opinions do not matter, because I do not like the content they like and therefore it is not worth making.

^
*image removed per Site Rule #6*

I think it goes slightly further than that - its not just that people who disagree with me are wrong, they're also stupid and a tiny minority. The majority of Bioware fans agree with me on what good content is...

"The false-consensus effect is a cognitive bias whereby a person tends to overestimate how much other people agree with him or her. There is a tendency for people to assume that their own opinions, beliefs, preferences, values and habits are 'normal' and that others also think the same way that they do. This cognitive bias tends to lead to the perception of a consensus that does not exist.

When confronted with evidence that a consensus does not exist, people often assume that those who do not agree with them are defective in some way."

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 21 décembre 2012 - 12:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah. Fairly early on in the "Human Protagonist in DA3 thread" I decided to actually record how everyone genuinely felt. As some folks were going on about how "everyone hated the decision."

Turns out the response was incredibly mixed, with negatives outweighing the positives by only 60-40 - which is hardly overwhelming, especially considering the nature of the news - and the number of people very upset (as opposed to mildly disappointed) was at the time in the single digits.

However, they were posting a lot more. It's not hard to imagine why.

The BSN tends to foster the illusion of consensus, by posters using "we" and "the fans" entirely too liberally, and by a few people posting a lot.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2012 - 08:15 .

[Beerfish]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

<sigh>

Fine, Shorts. You're right. Animations, voice overs and artists all work for free and certainly wouldn't limit the amount of content, as opposed to just adding more text into a conversation parser like what we see in IE games.

Back to zork, we don't actually need any graphics at all.

[Wozearly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This includes SWTOR.  For all its numerous faults, it is the first and only MMO I've ever played that managed to make me care about mindless MMO-style quests.  How?  Cinematics and voice acting provided context and emotional and narrative weight.  I do not expect everyone felt this way, but that's not relevant to my own experience and preferences.

DA2 is not really an example of any of this except the shorter game part.  Which can just as easily be attributed to the stunted development cycle.

I think you, me and Jimmy are only disagreeing on the value of different bits of content and (feeling conscious of my last post on bias), are probably inclined to overestimate the opportunity cost of things we don't like, and underestimate the oppotunity cost of things we do like.

For SWTOR, I agree that the voice acting did do a fairly good job of livening up the initial stages and contributed to creating some memorable quests and outcomes...but aside from the occasional moment of brilliance, a lot of it was essentially quest text used in other MMOs but spoken instead. It didn't make me that much less bothered about the grindiness, and certainly didn't excuse the shocking dullness and absence of engaging content at the endgame stage.

Bizarrely, SWTOR played like a single player game that had accidentally been made into an MMO, with very little thought into how the two sides would interact, given that there was supposed to be a huge war going on. 


On the DA2 note, I didn't mean to imply that cinematics and VA costs *caused* DA2 to be as it was (I'm not sure I agree with you that 'shorter' was the only observable change compared to Origins of those I listed).

Contributed, without a doubt, but not caused solely. It was more an example of what those elements caused to be deprioritised (as, clearly, including them was considered a priority). Other games prove exceptions to this; the GTA series, despite making greater use of cinematics and voice acting, has managed to increase the size of the game world and story content at the same time.

Ultimately, I agree that its completely subjective and we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Provi-dance]

I would like DA3, DA4 and DA5 to be a constant series of cutscenes, with emphasis on emoshunal and deeply touching voice acting.
I'd want to watch and adore my character, which I worked on for 12 hours straight in the character creator, from all cutscene angles... being in utter esctasy as his lips move to the voice of some well known voice actor.

I just want to sit back and enjoy the show, don't bother me with strategy and tactical combat (that's why I'm like your biggest fan ever). Sure I want to have some player-input from time to time, but don't let anything mess with the PLOT!
Some combat is fine if it's plot-related, but I want it to be actiony, like Kingdoms of Amalur for example. I think it is genius to suggest akshouny combat for a party based game with the ability to pause and input your akshouny actions to each party member.


Of course, this is my opinion, and nobody is allowed to question it.
You think your tastes are better and what I want from an rpg is unreasonable!!?? If so, you're just a filthy rpg elitist! I challenge you to define what is an rpg, too!? You can't! Anything can be an rpg! Take that!

[Battlebloodmage]

Provi-dance wrote...

I would like DA3, DA4 and DA5 to be a constant series of cutscenes, with emphasis on emoshunal and deeply touching voice acting.
I'd want to watch and adore my character, which I worked on for 12 hours straight in the character creator, from all cutscene angles... being in utter esctasy as his lips move to the voice of some well known voice actor.

I just want to sit back and enjoy the show, don't bother me with strategy and tactical combat (that's why I'm like your biggest fan ever). Sure I want to have some player-input from time to time, but don't let anything mess with the PLOT!
Some combat is fine if it's plot-related, but I want it to be actiony, like Kingdoms of Amalur for example. I think it is genius to suggest akshouny combat for a party based game with the ability to pause and input your akshouny actions to each party member.


Of course, this is my opinion, and nobody is allowed to question it.
You think your tastes are better and what I want from an rpg is unreasonable!!?? If so, you're just a filthy rpg elitist! I challenge you to define what is an rpg, too!? You can't! Anything can be an rpg! Take that!

Not questioning you, but you pretty much just describe the Final Fantasy series except for the character creator.