292 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Let go over the event that happen that was the cause of the patrol to go out.
a. Communication on the colony was being jammed. And James team was sent out to track as disable the cause of this.
b. The jamming signal was tracked to that beacon they found.
c. The beacon was never there before and was recently placed there by someone.

You're really say it's a good idea to keep it to study, Something that screams "preparing for an attack"?

None of the characters even raise the idea that it could have been put there in preparation of an alien invasion. Captain Tony even remarks that it is near the ruins and could be one of the artifacts the asari had been studying. For all they knew, it was an old artifact that just reactivated itself for any number of reasons. There was no point in destroying it.
And even if they suspected it was placed there in preparation of an invasion, studying it to discover who is attacking and the level of their technology would be the most reasonable thing to do. They do have a scientist there and can destroy it in a second if need be.

2.The team never had a choice not to study it. You don't get thatit was a reaper trap from the start. The info for when the reapers were invading was just bait for a trap.

Of course they had a choice. Indocrination happens gradually. Getting near a Reaper object for a couple of seconds won't suddenly remove someone's free will.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 décembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
2.The team never had a choice not to study it. You don't get thatit was a reaper trap from the start. The info for when the reapers were invading was just bait for a trap.

Conjecture.

You think a team of scientist would leave a device they well know is reaper tech and can indoctrinate them open in the middle of there base to be viewable from their lobby of their own will?
Added, it was a trap.

Yes. 

Because they obviously studied it there before they were indoctrinated, and they had no idea Shepard was coming there until she appeared with Bryson. 

1. They build the base around the becaon.
2.The indoctrination starts from the time they found it.

3.Sure, they had no idea Shepard was coming, but the reaper did. Indoctrinated pawns don't make the plan, they are just used in them.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The guy perposely warp the perpostion of the picture. It a clear misrepreantation.
2. You still haven't whated the movie yetyour passing judgement. You acting like a blind rabid fan girl. You already statedyou have not what any thing out side of preview clips.

Use a real dictionary and don't just make up definitions in your head.  That was a caricature of the real picture which is what I said, but the real one is no better.  So, the distortion of the facts of the picture do nothing to make it worse-it's merely meant to exaggerate how bad the original is.  That is something humor at its best does.  It takes a concept that is somewhat ridiculous and exaggerates the point to make it obvious.

And I never said I only watched preview clips.  There is this thing called youtube where people do actually show even whole movies (not totally legit) in pieces.  You can go to youtube and watch the whole thing since some have put it on there.  I've watched more than preview clips-and about all I could stomach, because the urge to vomit was overwhelming.  But in your own myopic view I have to be in full vomit mode in order to know I don't like it.  Really?

And while we're on the subject of trailers.  You've insisted that a trailer for ME1 be the evidence that the ending of ME3 is just great because we were told we would have to make some tough choices.  You base your opinion of 3 games and the most important part of all 3 (the ending) on one sentence in one trailer.  Not even a preview but a commercial for ME1.  However, I base my opinion on actually watching long parts of this uh cartoon and that's wrong.  Fan girl, that's hilarious.

[dreman9999]

MisterJB wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Let go over the event that happen that was the cause of the patrol to go out.
a. Communication on the colony was being jammed. And James team was sent out to track as disable the cause of this.
b. The jamming signal was tracked to that beacon they found.
c. The beacon was never there before and was recently placed there by someone.

You're really say it's a good idea to keep it to study, Something that screams "preparing for an attack"?

None of the characters even raise the idea that it could have been put there in preparation of an alien invasion. Captain Tony even remarks that it is near the ruins and could be one of the artifacts the asari had been studying. For all they knew, it was an old artifact that just reactivated itself for any number of reasons. There was no point in destroying it.
And even if they suspected it was placed there in preparation of an invasion, studying it to discover who is attacking and the level of their technology would be the most reasonable thing to do. They do have a scientist there and can destroy it in a second if need be.

2.The team never had a choice not to study it. You don't get thatit was a reaper trap from the start. The info for when the reapers were invading was just bait for a trap.

Of course they had a choice. Indocrination happens gradually. Getting near a Reaper object for a couple of seconds won't suddenly remove someone's free will.

1. But all the squad realized it was resently place, which makes it suspect. Which is a point to destorying it. That and it's blocking the singals for the entire colony.

2.Yet they build the base around it with no form of protecting themselves from it. And Shepard was hit with an indoctrination wave moments  that he/she was near it and kept being hit by indoctriantion wave till he/she passed out.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
2.The team never had a choice not to study it. You don't get thatit was a reaper trap from the start. The info for when the reapers were invading was just bait for a trap.

Conjecture.

You think a team of scientist would leave a device they well know is reaper tech and can indoctrinate them open in the middle of there base to be viewable from their lobby of their own will?
Added, it was a trap.

Yes. 

Because they obviously studied it there before they were indoctrinated, and they had no idea Shepard was coming there until she appeared with Bryson. 

1. They build the base around the becaon.
2.The indoctrination starts from the time they found it.

Did they or did they not study Object Rho whilst it was in that location? Did they or did they not then plan to blow up the Alpha Relay because of what they discovered?

3.Sure, they had no idea Shepard was coming, but the reaper did. Indoctrinated pawns don't make the plan, they are just used in them.

What Reaper? How did they know Shepard was coming to the Bahak system?

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The guy perposely warp the perpostion of the picture. It a clear misrepreantation.
2. You still haven't whated the movie yetyour passing judgement. You acting like a blind rabid fan girl. You already statedyou have not what any thing out side of preview clips.

Use a real dictionary and don't just make up definitions in your head.  That was a caricature of the real picture which is what I said, but the real one is no better.  So, the distortion of the facts of the picture do nothing to make it worse-it's merely meant to exaggerate how bad the original is.  That is something humor at its best does.  It takes a concept that is somewhat ridiculous and exaggerates the point to make it obvious.

And I never said I only watched preview clips.  There is this thing called youtube where people do actually show even whole movies (not totally legit) in pieces.  You can go to youtube and watch the whole thing since some have put it on there.  I've watched more than preview clips-and about all I could stomach, because the urge to vomit was overwhelming.  But in your own myopic view I have to be in full vomit mode in order to know I don't like it.  Really?

And while we're on the subject of trailers.  You've insisted that a trailer for ME1 be the evidence that the ending of ME3 is just great because we were told we would have to make some tough choices.  You base your opinion of 3 games and the most important part of all 3 (the ending) on one sentence in one trailer.  Not even a preview but a commercial for ME1.  However, I base my opinion on actually watching long parts of this uh cartoon and that's wrong.  Fan girl, that's hilarious.

Bs, link please.
And you just watched clips.
Also, on the issue of the ME1 trailers, I used it to illustrate the advertized theme of ME as a series, not why the ending is great.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
2.The team never had a choice not to study it. You don't get thatit was a reaper trap from the start. The info for when the reapers were invading was just bait for a trap.

Conjecture.

You think a team of scientist would leave a device they well know is reaper tech and can indoctrinate them open in the middle of there base to be viewable from their lobby of their own will?
Added, it was a trap.

Yes. 

Because they obviously studied it there before they were indoctrinated, and they had no idea Shepard was coming there until she appeared with Bryson. 

1. They build the base around the becaon.
2.The indoctrination starts from the time they found it.

Did they or did they not study Object Rho whilst it was in that location? Did they or did they not then plan to blow up the Alpha Relay because of what they discovered?

3.Sure, they had no idea Shepard was coming, but the reaper did. Indoctrinated pawns don't make the plan, they are just used in them.

What Reaper? How did they know Shepard was coming to the Bahak system?

1.Sure, also Saren was planning to save all organic life by betraying them to the reapers and TIM belevied that controling the reaper was a way to uplift humanity...And it was clear they were both indoctrianted....Indoctrianted is used by reapers to warp the persons beliefs to do what the reapers want without the person knowing. They were pawn of the reapers and did not know. Thus how it became a trap. 
2. Harbinger. It clear everything happen just so they can capture Shepard. It was a trap, literaly.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:28 .

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.If the results lead to them avoiding a trap, they clearly are not stupid. Added, I don't think keeping a strang becon that dropped out of the blue  is very smart. That a dead on trogan horse..
And the prothean beacons were dug up, not found in the open out of the blue. And those beacons did lead to a trap anyway.
2. And the project was still indoctrinated, made to set a trap for Shepard, capured him and nearly gave him to the reapers.
You're not getting the reapers let the project know they were coming to lead Shepard into a trap?

Hmm, it's not a good idea to keep a beacon that dropped out of the blue?  Except then that opinion invalidates almost every artifact that anyone ever decided to keep.  It would invalidate almost all of Leviathan since why would anyone keep the sphere or even pieces of Sovereign.  It would invalidate ME1, because they fully intended to keep a beacon that clearly is found to be somewhat dangerous and at least unknown.

Every artifact ever found and kept is done because they hope to learn something and because they are willing to take risks.  The issue is that many are found to be problems, but they view the risks as worth it.  Project Rho was something that was going to be retrieved for study, like the derelict reaper.  And much of what people assume was Prothean ends up not being Prothean so the Prothean beacons cannot even be assumed to be Prothean.  But, they still would want to retrieve and study them.  Even things known to be from reapers are desired for what can be learned from them.  And every single thing people find could be a trap.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Bs, link please.
And you just watched clips.
Also, on the issue of the ME1 trailers, I used it to illustrate the advertized theme of ME as a series, not why the ending is great.

Makes sense to call something BS and then to use the word please.  Go to youtube, look up Paragon Lost.  Select videos and watch.  And there is a big difference between a short trailer that just talks about a movie and huge parts of the actual movie.

They aren't trailers.  No, you used the trailer/the one line of dialogue to say the endings were great because the commercial said there would be choices, some of them hard.  You used that to say the endings as hard choices fit in with this commercial, one line of dialogue, used to sell ME1.  Don't try to spin it some other way because that is exactly what you did.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:19 .

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Bs, link please.
And you just watched clips.
Also, on the issue of the ME1 trailers, I used it to illustrate the advertized theme of ME as a series, not why the ending is great.

Makes sense to call something BS and then to use the word please.  Go to youtube, look up Paragon Lost.  Select videos and watch. 

They aren't trailers.  No, you used the trailer/the one line of dialogue to say the endings were great because the commercial said there would be choices, some of them hard.  You used that to say the endings as hard choices fit in with this commercial, one line of dialogue, used to sell ME1.  Don't try to spin it some other way because that is exactly what you did.

For someone who wants to defend Paragon Lost, he does a bad job at it and dismisses others opinions

[Wayning_Star]

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.If the results lead to them avoiding a trap, they clearly are not stupid. Added, I don't think keeping a strang becon that dropped out of the blue  is very smart. That a dead on trogan horse..
And the prothean beacons were dug up, not found in the open out of the blue. And those beacons did lead to a trap anyway.
2. And the project was still indoctrinated, made to set a trap for Shepard, capured him and nearly gave him to the reapers.
You're not getting the reapers let the project know they were coming to lead Shepard into a trap?

Hmm, it's not a good idea to keep a beacon that dropped out of the blue?  Except then that opinion invalidates almost every artifact that anyone ever decided to keep.  It would invalidate almost all of Leviathan since why would anyone keep the sphere or even pieces of Sovereign.  It would invalidate ME1, because they fully intended to keep a beacon that clearly is found to be somewhat dangerous and at least unknown.

Every artifact ever found and kept is done because they hope to learn something and because they are willing to take risks.  The issue is that many are found to be problems, but they view the risks as worth it.  Project Rho was something that was going to be retrieved for study, like the derelict reaper.  And much of what people assume was Prothean ends up not being Prothean so the Prothean beacons cannot even be assumed to be Prothean.  But, they still would want to retrieve and study them.  Even things known to be from reapers are desired for what can be learned from them.  And every single thing people find could be a trap.

Those cases are clearly different. If you just saw a giant ship fact down fleets of ships and holding it's ground before blowing up, it's common sense to study and take it's weapons for your own.
Prothean beacons are seeked out, and dug up. There is a clear understand where it came from.

But a odd device place resently that block s the signal of an entire colony does not scream to keep.
You know it was never there before,you don't know where it came from, and being that it was resently placed there, you don't know who placed it there.
Any military commander would blow it up. It screams trap.

This beacon is not the same as the prothean beacons found in the series being that it was recently place under mysterious terms and it blocking the signal for an entire colony.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Actually, that seems about right.  No one knows what any of the stuff they have, use, and make really is.  A spiral within a spiral or wheel in a wheel.

Oh and I'm not going to link to the full movie, I mean cartoon, on youtube-it's not my intent to get anyone in trouble for putting it up there, but it is there.

I have to stifle the vomit reflex over the hand discussion at the beginning.  Wow, is that fantastic.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 décembre 2012 - 07:26 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Bs, link please.
And you just watched clips.
Also, on the issue of the ME1 trailers, I used it to illustrate the advertized theme of ME as a series, not why the ending is great.

Makes sense to call something BS and then to use the word please.  Go to youtube, look up Paragon Lost.  Select videos and watch.  And there is a big difference between a short trailer that just talks about a movie and huge parts of the actual movie.

They aren't trailers.  No, you used the trailer/the one line of dialogue to say the endings were great because the commercial said there would be choices, some of them hard.  You used that to say the endings as hard choices fit in with this commercial, one line of dialogue, used to sell ME1.  Don't try to spin it some other way because that is exactly what you did.

I did... All I got was this...

Added, I already know youtube would take any recently relesed movie down.

sORRY, if you can't provide a link , I'm call bs.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Actually, that seems about right.  No one knows what any of the stuff they have, use, and make really is.  A spiral within a spiral or wheel in a wheel.

Oh and I'm not going to link to the full movie, I mean cartoon, on youtube-it's not my intent to get anyone in trouble for putting it up there, but it is there.

the gift and the curse of independent intellect. Being 'right' is just another complication...lol

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Actually, that seems about right.  No one knows what any of the stuff they have, use, and make really is.  A spiral within a spiral or wheel in a wheel.

Oh and I'm not going to link to the full movie, I mean cartoon, on youtube-it's not my intent to get anyone in trouble for putting it up there, but it is there.

I have to stifle the vomit reflex over the hand discussion at the beginning.  Wow, is that fantastic.

And thus it'sclear you haven't watch it.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Actually, that seems about right.  No one knows what any of the stuff they have, use, and make really is.  A spiral within a spiral or wheel in a wheel.

Oh and I'm not going to link to the full movie, I mean cartoon, on youtube-it's not my intent to get anyone in trouble for putting it up there, but it is there.

I have to stifle the vomit reflex over the hand discussion at the beginning.  Wow, is that fantastic.

And thus it'sclear you haven't watch it.

How does that make it clear?  What did I state that is in error, dremann.  Or didn't you watch it?  We have no proof you did.  Or did you forget the supposedly cute confrontation at the beginning?  Or that later on there's a vorcha chewing on people. 

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Actually, that seems about right.  No one knows what any of the stuff they have, use, and make really is.  A spiral within a spiral or wheel in a wheel.

Oh and I'm not going to link to the full movie, I mean cartoon, on youtube-it's not my intent to get anyone in trouble for putting it up there, but it is there.

I have to stifle the vomit reflex over the hand discussion at the beginning.  Wow, is that fantastic.

And thus it'sclear you haven't watch it.

How does that make it clear?  What did I state that is in error, dremann.  Or didn't you watch it?  We have no proof you did.  Or did you forget the supposedly cute confrontation at the beginning?  Or that later on there's a vorcha chewing on people. 

yeah, but vorcha chews on everybody..

I found some new MEU lore, but had to meta game it..

http://www.roadwarri...erse/index.html

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Actually, that seems about right.  No one knows what any of the stuff they have, use, and make really is.  A spiral within a spiral or wheel in a wheel.

Oh and I'm not going to link to the full movie, I mean cartoon, on youtube-it's not my intent to get anyone in trouble for putting it up there, but it is there.

I have to stifle the vomit reflex over the hand discussion at the beginning.  Wow, is that fantastic.

And thus it'sclear you haven't watch it.

How does that make it clear?  What did I state that is in error, dremann.  Or didn't you watch it?  We have no proof you did.  Or did you forget the supposedly cute confrontation at the beginning?  Or that later on there's a vorcha chewing on people. 

You did say anything in error  before but that is because you never said anyfacts form the movie. But now you did....There are no vorcha chewing on people...

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't everything in the MEU "Reaperstuff"? So prothean ruins are really reaper ruins, as they're created with reaperstuff. The MEU is reaperland and organics are pawns of that supposed evolutionary constent? But really it's all Leviathan stuff, even reapers. So,if the leviathan remain, the reapers, potentially remain.

Actually, that seems about right.  No one knows what any of the stuff they have, use, and make really is.  A spiral within a spiral or wheel in a wheel.

Oh and I'm not going to link to the full movie, I mean cartoon, on youtube-it's not my intent to get anyone in trouble for putting it up there, but it is there.

I have to stifle the vomit reflex over the hand discussion at the beginning.  Wow, is that fantastic.

And thus it'sclear you haven't watch it.

How does that make it clear?  What did I state that is in error, dremann.  Or didn't you watch it?  We have no proof you did.  Or did you forget the supposedly cute confrontation at the beginning?  Or that later on there's a vorcha chewing on people. 

yeah, but vorcha chews on everybody..

I found some new MEU lore, but had to meta game it..

http://www.roadwarri...erse/index.html

STAR...It's not a vorcha.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
I did... All I got was this...

Added, I already know youtube would take any recently relesed movie down.

sORRY, if you can't provide a link , I'm call bs.

Well then you don't know how to search.  It's there, is about 300mb and youtube will take it down when they find it, of course.  But then apparently you don't know how youtube works.  They have to find it first.

But sure, call something BS because you can't find it.  I can provide the link but I'm not going to try to get anyone in trouble.  It's up to them what they do.  I'd never put the video up, but that's their responsibility not mine.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

STAR...It's not a vorcha.

My error-I already stated it, it was a varren who was with the vorcha and supposed krogan.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. They build the base around the becaon.
2.The indoctrination starts from the time they found it.

Did they or did they not study Object Rho whilst it was in that location? Did they or did they not then plan to blow up the Alpha Relay because of what they discovered?

3.Sure, they had no idea Shepard was coming, but the reaper did. Indoctrinated pawns don't make the plan, they are just used in them.

What Reaper? How did they know Shepard was coming to the Bahak system?

1.Sure, also Saren was planning to save all organic life by betraying them to the reapers and TIM belevied that controling the reaper was a way to uplift humanity...And it was clear they were both indoctrianted....Indoctrianted is used by reapers to warp the persons beliefs to do what the reapers want without the person knowing. They were pawn of the reapers and did not know. Thus how it became a trap.

They served a purpose. What purpose did outright preventing the Reapers from entering the galaxy serve? If it was a trap, why the f*ck did the Reapers actually let them modify the asteroid?

2. Harbinger. It clear everything happen just so they can capture Shepard. It was a trap, literaly.

Harbinger somehow indoctrinated Hackett and made him ask Shepard to go to the Bahak system? 

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I did... All I got was this...

Added, I already know youtube would take any recently relesed movie down.

sORRY, if you can't provide a link , I'm call bs.

Well then you don't know how to search.  It's there, is about 300mb and youtube will take it down when they find it, of course.  But then apparently you don't know how youtube works.  They have to find it first.

But sure, call something BS because you can't find it.  I can provide the link but I'm not going to try to get anyone in trouble.  It's up to them what they do.  I'd never put the video up, but that's their responsibility not mine.

Ok, then if you watched it...Tell methe ending, or at least how one peson on the squad dies.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
You did say anything in error  before but that is because you never said anyfacts form the movie. But now you did....There are no vorcha chewing on people...

I made a mistake in saying vorcha instead of varren, but I also said so in another post.  I also said I didn't watch the whole thing and didn't like it so I'm saying that.  I don't have to see the whole thing to dislike it.  But apparently you'd eat a whole turd pie before you know you don't like it.  That makes real sense.  Ever walked out on a movie?  Well, I have.  Especially if the trailers made it look good and then it's just bad.  I don't need to know all the characters and delve into the story to know I don't like this.  It's my opinion, but somehow you can't stand it that I and others don't agree with you.  You've made this a bigger issue than it ever had to be.  And you just keep pushing it.  I don't like it.  You think it's great.  So what?  You have to make this a personal thing and attack anything that I say about it.  Why does this threaten you so much?