Dev Question: Tactics System
#226
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 04:24
In terms of anomalies, I recently set Wynne to cast Glyph of Neutralization against enemy mages. However, since then, she has cast it against a number of creatures that were not mages, leading to some annoying results (with the whole "neutralises all magic" thing actually helping to protect enemies against the group's magic!). Accordingly, I cleared that tactic. However, it's possible that I just didn't set it correctly.
Can't think of anything else right now. Will post if I do.
#227
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 04:33
The biggest thing I missed from a BG-type interface was being able to queue up commands (eg. CoC then StoneFist). Command-pause-command-pause-command became very tedious. Got to the point I really disliked the fights especially the cave crawls that never ended (Orzammar, I'm looking at you).
To be fair, I'm not much of a hack-and-slash fan but love Bioware games for the engaging party dialog and story lines. Maybe if/when I ever get the Tactics sussed I'll enjoy the battles more. I switched to Easy mode early on (from Ogre in the tower); playing on a PC.
Modifié par master-fluff, 08 janvier 2010 - 04:34 .
#228
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 05:29
-An option to check whether a target is specifically frozen/petrified, for using certain shattering/critting spells and abillities
-Not exactly part of the tactics system, but definitely related: switching gear. Especially a mage, but this also happens with archers, seems to switch to melee way too fast if he/she has a melee weapon in the secondary weaponslot.
#229
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 05:47
In the PC options, there is an option to pause whenever combat starts. When I played the PS3 version, where this isn't an option, I constantly tried to pause as soon as a cinematic, that lead into action, finished. However, there were several times where I may have toggled the action wheel too early and action continued while the wheel was open. When the action wheel was toggled to close, the game would pause.
#230
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 05:53
Viglin wrote...
-Archer not switching to melee when being engaged in melee...even thou set to
I also like it when mine just stands there doing nothing but switching back and forth between melee and ranged weapons, basically contributing nothing to the fight. I can sort of understand why it happens when there are enemies at both close and distant range, but when everyone is close in and it still happens, that can be frustrating.
#231
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 06:38
so things i really miss
- any sensible way to set up tactic to use poison, ie. tactic to tell char to use posion and then go to battle and dont try to apply poison again again even when its already up ...
- any way to tell character to attack from behind or at least to try
- any way to tell character to do anything on any enemy once and then stop (like pickpocket)
- saveable tactic for ranger pets (the only difference that would make this class awesome, instead of trash of all trashes)
- and as mentioned ... combined conditions, conditions blocks, boolean operators ...
- and impoves to behavior or maybe some menu to check what char should do ... like "avoid aoes yes/no" ... "kite enemies yes/no" ... "attack on sight yes/no" ... "for long range attack use weapon set 1 / 2" .. "for close range use weapon set 1 / 2" or w/e and well ... and some improvement to "H" (stand) order, where the characters should stay still but still use they abilities (spells, heals, taunts) so they dont chase the enemy, dont go out of cover, but dont stand like dummies while the controled character is trying to lure them ...
Modifié par DraCZeQQ, 08 janvier 2010 - 06:39 .
#232
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 06:45
All in all, I never felt like really testing tactics (I soon noticed I was not good at that).So I kept easy healing orders in general.
To improve, I'd love to be able to choose the place of each of my four guys on the yellow spots in formation and that they stay that way, even if I change the leader.
In fact, I enjoy to have my mage run 1st (yes, so what?) in the fight (so she can cold cone the ennemies )and she's always faaar awwaaayyy there behind, still hiding in the corridor , not even able to throw her spells because blocked!
As soon as I don't control her to start the fight, she stays behind.
So it would be great to be able to lock the party to a specific formation.And the guys never exchange position except when I ask them to do it!
I was a rogue and Loved to backstab but never found a tactic telling my PC (or Zev) to go directly BEHIND the ennemi to backstab...That would be great!
Modifié par leana78, 08 janvier 2010 - 06:51 .
#233
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 07:01
- I liked the implementation of the tactics system in DA:O. It was intuitive and easy to use.
- The meta-gaming aspect of unlockable tactics slots encouraged me to pretty much always control my main character (a rogue) since I didn't invest in combat tactics slots for him.
- On my second playthrough, I set all of the melee NPCs to Defensive behaviors to keep them near my mage. This mostly worked well in lieu of formations for keeping the tanks in front of the mage, but they need a little more range for deciding to move and attack. I often found one or more of them standing around doing nothing after killing a foe when there was a nearby enemy.
- Using the Ranged behavior doesn't seem to invoke the 'run-away from melee' behavior that I'd want. In particular, I would like for my ranged characters (mages & archers) to stay a certain distance away from all melee regardless of whether they're being attacked so as to avoid AOE melee attacks.
- It would be useful to be able to have a compound move and activate ability action in response to a condition. For example, if my mage is being attacked, I would like Alastair to run over so that he is nearby and then use taunt. Currently, the rule I have in place has him invoke Taunt whenever the main character is attacked, but if he isn't in range it doesn't have the desired effect.
- I, too, would like to be able to use compound conditionals. For example, I would like to be able to add to my 'use lyrium potion if mana < 10%' rule to also include an enemy difficulty clause so that Wynne wouldn't drink potions when fighting nuisance encounters. As it stands, I end up having to manually turn that rule on and off.
- The main reasons I ended up needing to control a character was positional. That mostly came down to positioning my rogue for proper flanking. But that also applies to moving the mage to line up cone based attacks.
#234
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 07:21
Modifié par Alocormin, 09 janvier 2010 - 08:13 .
#235
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 07:41
Status: Affected by spell > X
Everyone in the party ( you currently have either ally or self )
The posibility to have the "and" connector ( this would cost an extra tactic slot ) ( i know you can use Jump to, but you need to add a "jump to 1" with self any in the middle of the 2 instructions )
#236
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 08:43
#237
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 09:19
Greatest flaw I see is that without that mod, there's no way of using skills based on the condition of your current target instead of all enemies in combat (ie. there is no Target - Health under 50%).
Then I'd like to see an option Set as Target (selecting enemy as a target without attacking him, skipping the action and going to next condition if he's already target).
And what I'd really like to see is the ability to set multiple conditions/ actions in one tactic slot, possibly in a completely different form (for example, there might be button called "Advanced" next to each tactic slot which would show that form). Or at least multiple conditions.
Rogues and Warriors could really use action "Move to backstabbing/flanking position" and condition "Is in backstabbing/flanking position".
And of course, Pause action which would Pause the game.
Party members usually react as I expect them to, as long as the tactics are set up carefully. Only problem is that right now, there's no way of telling why does our character do some strange stuff except looking at your tactic setup and thinking what does your tactic setup do, step by step. And some people are not capable of doing that.
Overall, I'd say that the system works quite well, but people who are not careful are bound to do some mistake which will result in really wierd behaivor. But that's caused by the fact that the tactic system does exactly what you tell it to do, which I think is a pretty good think and I'd keep it that way.
#238
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 09:57
we are particularly interested in:
- How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
- What would you improve in the tactical interface?
- Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
- How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
- Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
- What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
- Tactical Interface is quite good. I simply don't like how extra slots are linked to a skill. They must be always available.
A quick AI on/off button is missing, too.
Tactics for summoned pet are a pain in the ass, mostly cause they go with zoning and you have to re-edit the whole thing.
About the GUI, more generally, I hate how UI doesn't tell me nothing about last looted/received items.
- Melee fighters are far too slow to react (mostly cause of their elaborate animations)in many situations and their stamina drains way too fast.
- Pets/shapeshifting have usually very poor characterization (a couple of skills and that's all).
Modifié par TucoBenedicto, 08 janvier 2010 - 09:59 .
#239
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 10:14
Would be great to have a way of selecting a subset of the party, allowing quick selection of melee or ranged characters for example.
Seconded on the quick AI on/off button mentioned by TicoBenedicto above.
When using multiple custom tactics sets, it would sometimes be useful to be able to automatically load a different one. I'd like to be able to do something like:
self:ranged weapon equipped -> switch to the tactics set that relates to ranged behaviour.
#240
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 11:21
It is very annoying to have the action broken because my character is veering off *slightly* to one side. The sensitivity control in the options menu fails to correct this.
Solution: Make the action interruptable only when the joystick is completely moved to the *run* position.
#241
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 11:53
#242
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 12:01
#243
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 12:07
#244
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 12:31
Pretty easy.
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
Change the wording of clustered/whatever-the-big-group-of-foes-together term is; currently it says 2/3/4/5 "allies" when I'd expect it to be foes.I don't like have to waste an extra tactic row (at low levels particularly) telling characters to heal/buff both allies and themselves seperately - I can understand having this option for the flexibility of prioritizing or differentiating, but when space is tight a general 'anyone!' option would be preferable.
Some kind of 'stamina/mana cut-off' option would be super e.g. when mana drops below 50% skip the Petrify step and just apply healing spell rules.
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
Barring the bugs/flaws listed below, I'd say so.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
Barring the bugs/flaws listed below, pretty flexible aside from being unable to flank & backstab.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Yep, list below.
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?To be perfectly honest, I'm not personally looking to control my party - I like the more action orientated gameplay with positioning, trap disarming etc. to be doing as my personal character.
Ideally I wouldn't have to control them beyond configuring simple roles like tank, healer and archer.
- - - - -
Weird/bugged stuff encountered (no idea if any of these are due to user incompetence however).
- Nearest X class rules don't work - sidekicks don't pick out mages and will target spells like Mana Drain uselessly.
- Rogues don't try to maneuver into a effective position.
- Even set to aggressive, melee sidekicks (and sometimes the rest too) don't join in when I initiate combat at long-range.
- Similarly; melee characters (/sometimes others) won't initiate combat while being shot at long-range.
- Even set to aggressive, sidekicks are sometimes very slow to join combat against newly revealed foes right in front of them - consequently have to switch to a Warrior and open a door and attack a foe before I can return to my own character, or they'll just let the baddies hammer on me for a few seconds before acting.
- 'Nearest visible' rules - or just targetting in general - seem to handle pop-ups and fleeing foes very poorly, sending sidekicks on epic treks after foes who are impractical or inactive while much more immediate threats are available.
#245
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 12:32
#246
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 12:42
For simple situations it can be pretty easy, such as telling party members to use healing spells or sustained talents. However due to the limited slots it can be limited to program more complex tactics, such as having party members activate/deactivate different sustained talents depending on their mana. (this can take up multiple slots per talent)
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
Increase the amount of tactics slot available to players, seperate the system from gameplay elements. (As a skill it becomes less of a gameplay utility and thus less desirable to use)
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
Most of the time, but I find with any sort of AoE spell party members will simply target an enemy and cast it without leading at all, often resulting in a waste of a spell.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
I dunno, the system isn't very good at broadcasting what actions party members are taking.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Not anything strange, just not as optimally as I'd like.
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
I'd like an expansion on the Follow/Hold command system, allowing us to toggle stuff like aggressiveness and ranged on the fly, as well as the ability to set tactics for pets without it disappearing (or at the very least, some default ones)
#247
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 01:01
Played the PC version here.
- How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
- What would you improve in the tactical interface?
- Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
- How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
- Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
- What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
First, let me say that I found the tactical interface was very easy to use, and pretty flexible overall. The lengthy list of triggers was a bit intimidating at first, but once you get the hang of it, the tactics system is a great way to control your characters without pausing every 2 seconds. I've listed a bunch of suggestions below, but overall I was very happy with the tactics system.
One way that I would improve the interface is to make it behave more like the Rules and Alerts interface in Microsoft Outlook. For example, you currently pick a tactic that is something like "Self : Health < 50%". This could be something like "Health below a certain level". You pick the base rule, then click on the "a certain level" part to customize the trigger and pick 95%, 90%, 85%, or whatever. This would allow you to have many more options instead of just the basic 90, 75, 50, 25 type of split, while also reducing the number of entries in the main menu, making it easier to find what you're looking for.
I also found it difficult to determine what some of the options meant. While "Self" and "Enemy" are fairly straightforward, what is the difference between an "Ally" and a "Hero"? Some more context-sensitive help, perhaps in the form of tooltips or a help box that changes as you select the various options would help. Likewise, what's the difference between "Boss" and "Elite"? Which one is "higher"? How does this relate to the White/Yellow/Orange enemy names? If the colour of the enemy name is the indicator of rank, why not use that colour in the tactic? ie: Display "Elite" in Yellow, and "Boss" in Orange, or whatever?
Some of the other triggers were also a bit limiting. For example, how do I trigger a beneficial AoE ability with the tactic system? I would really like a trigger that's more like "2 or more party members health < 50%" or "Entire Party Fatigue / Mana < 25%".
Some movement / positional tactics would be nice too. So you could do things like:
Enemy nearest -> Move to Flanking Position
Enemy nearest -> Attack
Self Health Move towards Wynne
For the most part, my characters did react as I expected. The only thing that didn't make sense to me was when the characters would automatically switch from Ranged to Melee attacks. Lelianna was especially bad for doing this at times when I didn't want her to.
The party members were generally responsive to changing battle conditions and behaved appropriately. There were only a few times where I felt like they weren't doing as I expected, usually just after I changed tactics and included a new "Self: Any" rule. Those didn't seem to take effect right away in all cases. I never really saw my characters act strangely.
As for controlling characters, it would be nice if there were some "Get over here" type of option to allow you to quickly tell an Aggressive character to give up the chase, or to quickly huddle your characters together for a friendly-AoE.
The "Hold Position" feature is also nice, but it would be good if there were more of a "Stay in this General Area" command, so that characters would generally hold position, but would still take a few steps in any direction to deal with an enemy that is nearby. I had quite a few times where I was scouting ahead, wondering why my party was getting killed, only to find that one stray Darkspawn was beating up on Wynne or Morrigan, and the rest of the party was just standing there watching because she was 2 steps away and they were told to hold position.
A quick way to turn tactics on and off from the main screen would also be great for the tougher battles. It's very tedious going into the tactics screen to do this for each character. It should be a little button like the Follow/Hold button, or an extra mode (ie: Follow / Hold / Stay Around Here / Disable AI).
I would also really like to have more tactics slots, and not have to spend so many skill points on tactics in order to get a sufficient number of slots. I rarely used any of the Trap Making, Poison Making, or other skills, because all my points went into either the combat skill to unlock talents, or the tactics skill to get more slots. The current set-up kind of forces you to choose whether you want to play with all the fun skills and micromanage everything, or give up the extra stuff and avoid pausing so often. Why can't I get the fun skills AND not have to pause as often?
Also, this is unrelated to tactics, but why do the characters keep changing positions? I set up my party knowing that I can hit F4 to select Wynne, for example. Then I drop someone or have someone forced on me by story events, and suddenly Wynne has moved up to F3. It would be really nice if you could rearrange the order of the character portraits or reassign the hotkeys without having to go back to camp, dump your entire party, and built again by clicking on the characters in the specific order you want.
The ability to rename your custom tactics configurations would also be nice. I could never remember which Custom slot was for what. "Custom 1" isn't very descriptive, where "Boss Battle" helps you remember what your customized tactics were for.
Modifié par LadySeryn, 09 janvier 2010 - 01:03 .
#248
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 04:41
[*]How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
[*][/quote] [*]A: It's easy to use.[*]
[*][quote] [*]What would you improve in the tactical interface?[*][/quote] [*]A: For less 'hardcore' gamers, I'd introduce a conversation-driven tactics interface, so that you can choose a (under the hood, a fairly complex) combo of tactics & behaviour easily, and presented in a simple straightforward manner, e.g. "Alistair, fight defensively [behaviour], *but* use your offensive skills, like Shield Bash, whenever you get the chance [tactics]." ---or, "Alistair, I want blood. Fight aggressively [behaviour], no quarter given, but use defensive skills like Shield Wall to keep yourself alive [tactics]", or "Fight defensively [behaviour], but concentrate on supporting the rest of the party [tactics], rather than going it alone." Also at a higher level, a one button Aggresive / Defensive switch in combat would be good - i.e. select party member(s), press Offensive/Defensive button to toggle. No need to look at a list in the '/' menu (though that menu should still be preserved for fine-tuning, IMO), go into conversation, etc, to alter the flow of a battle without fiddling - Example: player sees the battle going badly, can switch entire party to defensive mode with one button. Would be call to see the player character bark out "Hold the line!" or "To arms! Attack!" etc.
[*]
[*][quote] [*]Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
[*][/quote] [*]A: Unless they are mages or archers. They don't kite enemies enough, and are easily mobbed if you don't individually control them. This can be fun in *some* circumstances, but there's too much micro-management for these classes. Love to see archers performing hit and run tactics *smartly*, and mages should be able to do the same. Atm they're too dumb. Also, and this is a big also, party members should be a bit smarter if the lead character is stealthed. Many, many times I've been let down by party members stuffing up ambushes.
[*]
[*][quote] [*]How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
[*][/quote] [*]A: They do respond, but too slowly IMO.[*]
[*][quote] [*]Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
[*][/quote] [*]A: Rarely. 1 out of 5 battles I notice party members cycling madly through powers/skills (noticeable with a mad cycling of power/skill icons near their portrait), and I can't figure out why. Their tactics seem sound.[*]
[quote] [*]What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?[*][/quote] [*]A: As stated above, I'd like a one button press to switch selected party members into different behaviours - Offense & Defense. A 'Protect [self/target]!' contextual button would be good too for dicey situations. Also, a simple conversation interface for setting up party member tactics would be good.
[/quote]
Modifié par sirfouytr, 09 janvier 2010 - 04:46 .
#249
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 04:45
Zakath12 wrote...
There is one thing I can think of. I made a Mage (Arcane Warrior) and had her using a Sword and Shield combo. I had a staff on the 2nd weapon set. Very often when I would switch to control another character, the mage would switch back to the staff instead of keep using the SnS. It's like because the characters was a mage, it would always switch back to using a staff as the default weapon.
Ha, that's funny - I had the exact opposite problem. I'd switch my Arcane Warrior to staff, and get them to attack a target and long range. They'd fire one or two shots, then switch to melee and chaaarrrrgeee!
#250
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 04:59
- How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
- What would you improve in the tactical interface?
- Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
- How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
- Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
- What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
- Very easy, I've played games in the past with similar Tactics systems.
- Very little to be honest. You could honestly add dozens of additional variables/conditions, but a system like this needs to remain as slim as possible.
I would not add more than perhaps one additional tactic to a starting character. You will never be able to cover every different scenario during battles with tactics, better to accept that some micro-management will always be needed. The improvoments should me made with the purpose to minimize the amount of micro-management required, especially for simple battles, not to add things in order to cover every possible scenario. A system like that is too easy to get cluttered and end up broken. Possible exception: If ally is dead -> use ability Revive, although it would be a tactic dedicated to only one ability in the game, it would help to speed up things a lot during battle, and one of the strong points of DA is its fast-paced action.
Also it is important to keep the number of tactics for each character tied to a skill, different characters have different understandings of strategy, and this differentation should be tied to the game mechanics.
It is also weird that you can actually do many of the things previous posters have requested to be added, with the Tactics system as it is currently. I guess this shows the current system has more depth than most people realize, and also that a better tutorial is needed.
What would I add: based on play experience, I use tactics most of the time, sometimes never pausing in simple battles, but I will necessarily pause to give orders in long/difficult battles. So what I would do to reduce the amount of micro-mangement:
For Warriors, very little. Although they can be a little starved for tactics at first, they have no problems at mid-late game.
For Rogues, always the player commands involve getting into flanking position, so a "Move to Flanking position and Attack" option could be added to the existing conditions (i.e. Enemy Status = Stunned -> Move to Flank, Enemy=Nearest -> Move to Flank, etc.) Also an "Hero Status = Flanking" condition could be added, to set up the abilities you want to use then. For tidyness reasons, it would be better to assume that when the rogue loses the flanking position, he would fight normally until a "move to Flank" condition is next met. The cherry would be a "Self Status = Stealth" condition, to chain to a flanking attack tactic.
Alternatively, an additional behaviour (or two) could be added where the rogue actively moves to stealth and flank at the beginning of combat, and seeks to flank incapacited enemies/the hero's target throughout it.
For Mages, the amount of micromanagement currently involves casting of AOE effects, and group buffs. For the AOE abilities, the simplest solution again would be the addition of a behavior (or two) which does not cast harming AOE abilities affecting allies. I think this would be simpler, that adding conditions that would have to be chained into the casting of AOE abilities, and check if an ally is hit. However it is still very very difficult to implement. There is no easy way with this.
Group buffs are a pain because there isn't a way to check the conditions of two or more party members with one tactic. The better you could do currently is "check your main tank's health -> jump to second tactic->check controlled character's health->group heal" for example. If you could check the health/stamina or mana level, of two, three or four party members with one condition, then acticate an ability, it would really speed things up.
Also tied to the above, you have to duplicate buffs for allies and self, perhaps an additional "party member" choice could be added. Mages are currently the most tactic-starved class at mid levels.
If any of the above get implemented, no additional tactics slot would be necessary to added to character creation.
- To a satisfying degree, yes. I had some troubles at first because I hadn't realised the importance of Behaviors, to how the characters respond in combat.
- Again, the adaptabiliy comes mostly through a combination of behavior+tactics set. Perhaps you could save a specific Behavior with each custom Tactics package?
- At the beginning mainly. Swapping melee weapons/bows radomly was a problem. One thing I have noticed is mages casting Mana Clash/Mana Drain to random enemies who are not spellcasters, I think. I'm guessing many special abilities of the monsters are considered magic? Perhaps a better categorization of the enemies' abilities is needed.
- To be honest I would change very, very little. I don't want to see any advanced tactics, movement tactics etc - keep it light and clean, and only one menu. The priority slots of the tactics are more than enough. One idea would be to add "group tactics" - abilities that could be used in conjuction with a specific party member i.e. a unique, long cooldown, combined attack of Leliana and the player, for example, that could be unlocked as a plot abilty. Also saving your custom tactics with different names would be helpful.




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