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Playing on XBox 360;
How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use? : It's clean and intuitive. Easy to navigate and change the settings.
What would you improve in the tactical interface? : It would be nice if we could switch to the next/previous party member's tactics screen by pressing the shoulder buttons.
Do your party members react as you would expect them to ... ? : They generally do, but sometimes fail to, as well. For instance, warriors in particular (Alistair, Sten et al) may just stand where they are without lifting a finger even as the enemies are pounding on them, if the group was ordered to hold position previously but then ordered again to move freely when the enemies got close enough.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions? : Reasonably responsive, but see above.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances? : In one of my previous playthroughs, even though I had Morrigan's behaviour set to "Ranged", she'd rush, well ahead of the rest of the party, right into the center of a group of enemies as soon as she spotted them and promptly get her rear end handed over to her. I realized she'd been doing that because her second tactic was for her to use "Mind Blast" if surrounded by at least 3 enemies. I suppose she thought she was ordered to see to it that she'd end up getting surrounded by at least 3 enemies one way or another. The problem disappeared after I pushed that specific tactic to the end of the list.
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party? : 1) As stated before by other posters, the ability to define multiple conditions with boolean conditional logical operators for each tactic would be welcome. On the "action" side of the tactic, it'd be very nice to be able to order a chain of, say, up to 3 or 4 actions; e.g. "Self: Being attacked by melee -> switch to melee weapons, throw acid flask, activate berserk". 2) "If surrounded by at least # enemies" condition should be applicable to the allies as well as "Self". For instance; "Ally/Specific Character: Surrounded by at least 2 enemis -> Use ability: Glyph of Paralysis". 3) "Clustered" status is not quite useful since many abilities, which would be exactly what I'd want to use in those situations, such as "Scatter Shot", become unavailable when the "Clustered" status is selected. 4) Something I'd really love to see but can live perfectly fine without is the ability to write custom tactic scripts. As far as I know, both 360 and PS3 support keyboard and mouse so such a feature can be added to console versions as well.
Dev Question: Tactics System
Débuté par
Victor Wachter
, janv. 06 2010 07:54
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#77
Posté 06 janvier 2010 - 11:55
RurouniSaiya-jin
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Can't be of great use on this topic since I usually manage my party personally with the tactics there as a safety net.
How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
The interfact is pretty easy to use. It didn't take me long to set up everyone's tactics
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
More tactics options I suppose
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
For the most part yes but I've noticed that on really rare occassions, a party member will be stuck standing perfectly still and be completely unresponsive to what they are supposed to be doing, even when I give them a command personally. Having them move somewhere else usually fixes the problem but still, something worth nothing.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
They seem to be pretty responsive. A job well done Bioware ^,^
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Only the standing around in one spot not doing anything thing even though they're supposed to be carrying out a command.
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
Can't be of great use on this one since like I said, I like to manage my party personally most of the time.
How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
The interfact is pretty easy to use. It didn't take me long to set up everyone's tactics
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
More tactics options I suppose
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
For the most part yes but I've noticed that on really rare occassions, a party member will be stuck standing perfectly still and be completely unresponsive to what they are supposed to be doing, even when I give them a command personally. Having them move somewhere else usually fixes the problem but still, something worth nothing.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
They seem to be pretty responsive. A job well done Bioware ^,^
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Only the standing around in one spot not doing anything thing even though they're supposed to be carrying out a command.
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
Can't be of great use on this one since like I said, I like to manage my party personally most of the time.
#78
Posté 06 janvier 2010 - 11:57
Kiwi9055
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I originally had the tactics menu on normal but found this frustrating so turned it off and I micromanage party members. I play on Nightmare difficulty which is fantastic. I can't imagine going back to using the tactics menu no matter what changes you make.
Modifié par Kiwi9055, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:02 .
#79
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:08
mhv33
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I found that I wanted a lot more tactics slots. Maybe I'm unusual but I found myself wishing for 30 or more slots.
#80
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:12
Darth Wraith
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How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
Quite easy. Took a bit of fiddling with at first, but now it's no problem at all.
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
There are two things in particular I miss, both having to do with mages: One is some function that would have them NOT cast any AoE spell when there are allies in the way. The other is one that would get them to cast at groups of enemies. I thought this was the "target enemy when clustered with X allies", but apparently not.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Not precisely unusual, but annoying: I set Shale (and I've also seen this with Alistair) to activate Threaten when the PCs' health dropped below 50%. Then my PC went and died, and for the rest of the fight Shale/Alistair stood around trying to activate Threaten non-stop, not doing anything else. Granted he was technically doing what I'd told him to, but it was still a pain in the behind.
Quite easy. Took a bit of fiddling with at first, but now it's no problem at all.
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
There are two things in particular I miss, both having to do with mages: One is some function that would have them NOT cast any AoE spell when there are allies in the way. The other is one that would get them to cast at groups of enemies. I thought this was the "target enemy when clustered with X allies", but apparently not.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Not precisely unusual, but annoying: I set Shale (and I've also seen this with Alistair) to activate Threaten when the PCs' health dropped below 50%. Then my PC went and died, and for the rest of the fight Shale/Alistair stood around trying to activate Threaten non-stop, not doing anything else. Granted he was technically doing what I'd told him to, but it was still a pain in the behind.
#81
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:23
Wozearly
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"How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?"
Pretty easy and straightforward, to be honest - although I did find there were a number of features and options in it that I didn't ultimately use.
"What would you improve in the tactical interface?"
Off the top of my head, allowing a default ranged behaviour where the ranged char stays close to the player controlled char, doesn't chase enemies if they retreat out of range or seek enemies currently out of range but DOES auto-target all enemies within range would have been a good behaviour to be able ot use.
An option for "Enemy is targeting (any ally)" would be useful to avoid having to micro-manage the Taunt options on the main tank if you change your party - or have it occupy multiple tactic slots.
Some of the healer options are also a bit broad brush. Its hard, for example, to tactically use the group heal via tactics because you can only tie it to the health of one specific, or any general, party member - rather than "Group heal only if at least (x) party members are below (x) health". Same with the group stamina regen buffs.
It would also be nice to be able to select prioritisation of targets based on their characteristics and not just the attacks they're inflicting on someone - for example, ensuring that Templars rush to target spellcasters, or party mages line up Mana Clash as an opening move on any spellcaster in range. Archers prioritising enemy archers over enemy melee chars, rogues prioritising higher armour targets with DPS prioritising lesser armoured targets, etc.
Will try to think of other things that leaped out at me as a "D'oh - why can't I do that?" over the next day or two.
"Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?"
Generally, yes - but with some exceptions.
Sometimes Dog can get stuck in Dread Howl and not go on to target people when tactics are set to "Enemy clustered", and very occasionally in "Self - surrounded by (x) enemies".
Several other people have mentioned Archers arbitrarily changing to and from ranged/melee. An (if ranged) or (if melee) tag for melee or ranged-specific actions would help avoid some switchovers. A "never change weapon" option would also be useful, or a "change weapon only on specific request via tactic, not via ability use" option.
"How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?"
Fairly good, although there are some tactical 'gaps' like being attacked from behind. In an ideal world, your backline party members would scatter to safe areas rather than stay put and be engaged in melee until the tank gets control of their assailants (if he even does). A tactical option to flee if under (attack type) could be useful, in a similar way to how enemy archers react.
"Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?"
Not outside of the Dog / Archer frustrations already mentioned.
"What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?"
Not sure...will think on this one.
Just wanted to come back and edit this for a general overview. I personally hate micromanagement of up to 4 players because it breaks the immersion and flow of combat, so whilst I initially sighed when confronted with the tactics system as it looked complicated at a glance and something I could easily get wrong and suffer from, I fell in love with it pretty quickly and now can't imagine playing the game without it.
Learning to develop and tweak my tactics as well as learning how to get classes to work better together, tweaking the abilities on the hotbar, etc. was surprisingly satisfying.
All in all, although it does have some flaws and areas it could be improved on, its an excellent concept and because 99% of the time it sits seamlessly in the background and lets you get on with the flow of the game, I think its a system which doesn't receive enough of the praise that it rightfully deserves.
Pretty easy and straightforward, to be honest - although I did find there were a number of features and options in it that I didn't ultimately use.
"What would you improve in the tactical interface?"
Off the top of my head, allowing a default ranged behaviour where the ranged char stays close to the player controlled char, doesn't chase enemies if they retreat out of range or seek enemies currently out of range but DOES auto-target all enemies within range would have been a good behaviour to be able ot use.
An option for "Enemy is targeting (any ally)" would be useful to avoid having to micro-manage the Taunt options on the main tank if you change your party - or have it occupy multiple tactic slots.
Some of the healer options are also a bit broad brush. Its hard, for example, to tactically use the group heal via tactics because you can only tie it to the health of one specific, or any general, party member - rather than "Group heal only if at least (x) party members are below (x) health". Same with the group stamina regen buffs.
It would also be nice to be able to select prioritisation of targets based on their characteristics and not just the attacks they're inflicting on someone - for example, ensuring that Templars rush to target spellcasters, or party mages line up Mana Clash as an opening move on any spellcaster in range. Archers prioritising enemy archers over enemy melee chars, rogues prioritising higher armour targets with DPS prioritising lesser armoured targets, etc.
Will try to think of other things that leaped out at me as a "D'oh - why can't I do that?" over the next day or two.
"Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?"
Generally, yes - but with some exceptions.
Sometimes Dog can get stuck in Dread Howl and not go on to target people when tactics are set to "Enemy clustered", and very occasionally in "Self - surrounded by (x) enemies".
Several other people have mentioned Archers arbitrarily changing to and from ranged/melee. An (if ranged) or (if melee) tag for melee or ranged-specific actions would help avoid some switchovers. A "never change weapon" option would also be useful, or a "change weapon only on specific request via tactic, not via ability use" option.
"How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?"
Fairly good, although there are some tactical 'gaps' like being attacked from behind. In an ideal world, your backline party members would scatter to safe areas rather than stay put and be engaged in melee until the tank gets control of their assailants (if he even does). A tactical option to flee if under (attack type) could be useful, in a similar way to how enemy archers react.
"Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?"
Not outside of the Dog / Archer frustrations already mentioned.
"What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?"
Not sure...will think on this one.
Just wanted to come back and edit this for a general overview. I personally hate micromanagement of up to 4 players because it breaks the immersion and flow of combat, so whilst I initially sighed when confronted with the tactics system as it looked complicated at a glance and something I could easily get wrong and suffer from, I fell in love with it pretty quickly and now can't imagine playing the game without it.
Learning to develop and tweak my tactics as well as learning how to get classes to work better together, tweaking the abilities on the hotbar, etc. was surprisingly satisfying.
All in all, although it does have some flaws and areas it could be improved on, its an excellent concept and because 99% of the time it sits seamlessly in the background and lets you get on with the flow of the game, I think its a system which doesn't receive enough of the praise that it rightfully deserves.
Modifié par Wozearly, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:29 .
#82
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:41
MonkeyChief117
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I have to agree with previous comments about allies taking you out with AOE spells i.e. fireball - there should be an option to prevent this.
I also agree that you should be able to save two or three sets of tactics determined by the player (like ranged, close range etc) and get your team to switch when appropriate.
Otherwise this is a useful and effective feature in the game which has saved my neck several times! I'd also like to thank the devs for asking for feedback like this - it shows that you guys really care about delivering the best experience. Cheers!
I also agree that you should be able to save two or three sets of tactics determined by the player (like ranged, close range etc) and get your team to switch when appropriate.
Otherwise this is a useful and effective feature in the game which has saved my neck several times! I'd also like to thank the devs for asking for feedback like this - it shows that you guys really care about delivering the best experience. Cheers!
Modifié par MonkeyChief117, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:43 .
#83
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:50
Wickd
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Q: How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
A: Easy enough, though I play around alot with programming on a basic level..
Q: What would you improve in the tactical interface?
A: I'd like to see more conditions, like "Enemy: Using melee weapon"+"Attacking: Specific Ally"="Taunt",
-And also when specifying that "Ally: less than #% HP"="heal" Id like the healer to keep healing till target is above that percent, so that if the healer did one heal, and it didnt get above target percent it would try again when cooldown is finished.
-Plus a situation for several members being below #%hp, so group heal gets in the picture.
Q: Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
A: Well I have not really been testing this to much since the tactics dont have a deep enough control that I would trust them to do what I want them to, so I use pause to guide them in any situation.
I simply need more slots and more conditions per slot in the tactics to let them fight on their own.
Q: What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
A: I'd like some positioning control, like Rogues and Scrappers to move in behind or to the flank of the target, And the defender need to stay the front ofcourse. And ranged to use distance, but not get in front of enemies, since in fights with enemeies like dragons, the dragon tend to breathe fire.
A: Easy enough, though I play around alot with programming on a basic level..
Q: What would you improve in the tactical interface?
A: I'd like to see more conditions, like "Enemy: Using melee weapon"+"Attacking: Specific Ally"="Taunt",
-And also when specifying that "Ally: less than #% HP"="heal" Id like the healer to keep healing till target is above that percent, so that if the healer did one heal, and it didnt get above target percent it would try again when cooldown is finished.
-Plus a situation for several members being below #%hp, so group heal gets in the picture.
Q: Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
A: Well I have not really been testing this to much since the tactics dont have a deep enough control that I would trust them to do what I want them to, so I use pause to guide them in any situation.
I simply need more slots and more conditions per slot in the tactics to let them fight on their own.
Q: What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
A: I'd like some positioning control, like Rogues and Scrappers to move in behind or to the flank of the target, And the defender need to stay the front ofcourse. And ranged to use distance, but not get in front of enemies, since in fights with enemeies like dragons, the dragon tend to breathe fire.
Modifié par Wickd, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:54 .
#84
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:55
Sidney
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On the 360...
# How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
* It is easy. The problem is not the interface but understanding the effects of the options I can select and the order I select them in.
# What would you improve in the tactical interface?
* Better pre-sets. The most basic commands like heal and attack nearest aren't in many of the pre-sets. At least help those who don't want to mess with the tactics not have to.
* Eliminate the "Attitude". The only useful options are ranged and aggressive so just call them ranged and melee and be done with it except that in aggressive they should not charge an AoE spell.
* Give us two "free" slots and basically hard code the first slot to be a Heal Nearest or something. Let players change the second half of those commands but, again, at least the default behavior should never have someone who won't heal or won't attack.
# Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
* They react as I've told them to.
# How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
* They only do what I tell them to do. The biggest gripe here are ranged attackers moving in silly ways and getting to close to a target.
# Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
* The odd movements of ranged characters mentioned above.
# What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
* Control hold/free by member
* "Follow Me" option for the consoles - you can't withdraw from a fight
I will say I tend to have a set of tactics and don't monkey with altering it for each encounter or dungeon.
# How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
* It is easy. The problem is not the interface but understanding the effects of the options I can select and the order I select them in.
# What would you improve in the tactical interface?
* Better pre-sets. The most basic commands like heal and attack nearest aren't in many of the pre-sets. At least help those who don't want to mess with the tactics not have to.
* Eliminate the "Attitude". The only useful options are ranged and aggressive so just call them ranged and melee and be done with it except that in aggressive they should not charge an AoE spell.
* Give us two "free" slots and basically hard code the first slot to be a Heal Nearest or something. Let players change the second half of those commands but, again, at least the default behavior should never have someone who won't heal or won't attack.
# Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
* They react as I've told them to.
# How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
* They only do what I tell them to do. The biggest gripe here are ranged attackers moving in silly ways and getting to close to a target.
# Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
* The odd movements of ranged characters mentioned above.
# What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
* Control hold/free by member
* "Follow Me" option for the consoles - you can't withdraw from a fight
I will say I tend to have a set of tactics and don't monkey with altering it for each encounter or dungeon.
Modifié par Sidney, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:56 .
#85
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:06
Balgin Stondraeg
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The very first time I used the tactics system I was foiled. I wanted a "if any ally is surrounded" trigger. Unfortunately I could have "if self is surrounded" and "if a monster is outnumbered by party members" but I could not have "if another party member is outnumbered" trigger.
It would be nice to be able to give a warrior a trigger to come over and help an outnumbered party member but unfortunately I cannot find a way to do it (save manualy
).
I have since done lots of cunning things with the tactics system but wish there was an "if other party member is outnumbered" trigger (even if I had to name them specificaly).
It would be nice to be able to give a warrior a trigger to come over and help an outnumbered party member but unfortunately I cannot find a way to do it (save manualy
).I have since done lots of cunning things with the tactics system but wish there was an "if other party member is outnumbered" trigger (even if I had to name them specificaly).
#86
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:10
Zepheera
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For the most part, I like the tactics system, there's only a few things that I notice that bugs me.
For AoE spells (specifically the group heal vs heal) I'd like to see a little more option. Right now we have the standard:
If Party member has less than 50% health
Then Cast heal
and
If party member has less than 25% health
Then Cast group heal
Then, much of the time, the healer will ignore the fact that there's two characters almost dead, and just cast heal, even if you put the group heal option above the heal option, in which case the group heal will fire off even if only one character is in need of healing, which causes you to possibly die waiting for it to recycle.
I'd like to see something like
If "two or more party members" has less than 50% health
Then Cast Group heal
If party member has less than 50% health
Then Cast heal
In addition, I'd like to see something for revival. Right now, there's not really any way, that I've seen, to have it in the tactics to trigger a revival cast without having to switch to the mage to do it. 10% seems to be the lowest it goes.
If party member has Zero health
Then Cast Revival
Then, the only other thing I've noticed is that during some fights, when I want all of the characters to stand back and use archery (ie brood mother fight), I will almost always have to unequip any melee weapons in order to keep the party members from automatically switching back to them, even when I have disabled tactics that have them auto switch. During these fights I have also had the party members standing their ground, so they are not within melee range.
I'd love to see more in depth options for the If...then statements, I'd like to see it extended into If....And...Then.
"If Enemy is target of main character AND Enemy is Blocked"
Then skip to 2
Else: Attack
"If Enemy is nearest"
Then: Attack
I look forward to seeing what else you guys have for us!
For AoE spells (specifically the group heal vs heal) I'd like to see a little more option. Right now we have the standard:
If Party member has less than 50% health
Then Cast heal
and
If party member has less than 25% health
Then Cast group heal
Then, much of the time, the healer will ignore the fact that there's two characters almost dead, and just cast heal, even if you put the group heal option above the heal option, in which case the group heal will fire off even if only one character is in need of healing, which causes you to possibly die waiting for it to recycle.
I'd like to see something like
If "two or more party members" has less than 50% health
Then Cast Group heal
If party member has less than 50% health
Then Cast heal
In addition, I'd like to see something for revival. Right now, there's not really any way, that I've seen, to have it in the tactics to trigger a revival cast without having to switch to the mage to do it. 10% seems to be the lowest it goes.
If party member has Zero health
Then Cast Revival
Then, the only other thing I've noticed is that during some fights, when I want all of the characters to stand back and use archery (ie brood mother fight), I will almost always have to unequip any melee weapons in order to keep the party members from automatically switching back to them, even when I have disabled tactics that have them auto switch. During these fights I have also had the party members standing their ground, so they are not within melee range.
I'd love to see more in depth options for the If...then statements, I'd like to see it extended into If....And...Then.
"If Enemy is target of main character AND Enemy is Blocked"
Then skip to 2
Else: Attack
"If Enemy is nearest"
Then: Attack
I look forward to seeing what else you guys have for us!
Modifié par Zepheera, 07 janvier 2010 - 01:21 .
#87
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:11
Statue
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[*]How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
Fairly easy once you twig what's going on - some of the labelling could be more user-friendly so that the different sections are more WYSIWYG'd (read some posts suggesting some users didn't find it intuitive, not getting that the left are IF statements and the right page is for THEN statements completing what's on the left, that kinda stuff). I myself grasped it pretty intuitively.
[*]What would you improve in the tactical interface?
Labels; tooltip text for sections; a more obvious visual representation that makes it impossible to not intuit that statements made on the left page (the IFs/CONDITIONS) are completed by those on the right page (the THENS/RESPONSES) - I think it's fairly obvious that's how it works but from some threads I've seen not everyone picks it up from looking at it; some way of separately ordering ranged versus melee without losing defensive behaviour (e.g. either have offensive ranged and defensive ranged, or have ranged/melee toggles operate in a different dropdown list to offensive/defensive behaviours).
[*]Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
Mostly
[*]How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
To the ones that can be set, they respond. There are plenty of conditions and contexts that there's no way to set behaviour for but that's not such a problem for me as some1 that tends to switch off the tactics and micromanage everything anyway (primarily positioning of characters to make use of terrain such as doorways as bottlenecks).
It might get too cluttered trying to cram all of those terrain and situational contexts into that kind of interface, which is fine so long as it isn't expected to *replace* entirely the user's own control of players (which it of course isn't in DAO - we can toggle off the AI and pause and direct fully every action). Keep that flexibility so that limitations of the AI don't limit the player, and also to please folks like me that prefer to micromanage anyhow.
[*]Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Yes. They're a bit triggy-happy with AOE spells. Given I don't tend to use the tactics I avoid that but when I tried them out I noted it. Also noted it with that teamkilling foo Avernus in Warden's Keep - he was so liberal with his friendly fire I was tempted to retaliate a few times. I also find it odd that "holding position" prevents them from using their AI completely (sometimes a player might want to position their characters strategically based on the terrain and enemy positions and have them hold those positions but still attack - at first I thought I'd forgot to untoggle party select, but nope, it really was my telling them to hold that meant they stood there while getting flayed).
[*]What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
Please oh please oh please, *never* give up on supporting players that prefer to micromanage in party-based TRPGs. I've noticed a decline in support for my micromanaging playstyle preference over the years.
There used to be tons of fully turn-based TRPGs that were cool (ToEE was one of my favourite TB combat systems). TB TRPGs started to dwindle in availability. Subsequent ones that hybridized TB and RT play (BG/BG2) held their appeal to the TB player in me - I could configure their range of configurable autopause options and essentially be enjoying it in a TB stylee, while others not liking TB play could do their thang.
With DAO the support is further lessened (doh) but thankfully still present (in the form of the one autopause condition - upon combat - and manual pausing, which used together give a somewhat fiddly approximation of TB play that I can live with but that isn't optimal for my preferences). If, in future TRPGs, the support for my micromanaging (control-freak?) playstyle gets fazed out any further, it won't exist, which would be a shame. Currently, almost all recent TB TRPGs are low budget ones from indie studios
I know you've developed this lovely AI tactics system and developed toward real-time playability and here I am saying my preference is to not use it - but I hope that's taken in the spirit I'm delivering it. I respect and understand the effort behind making DAO real-time friendly and having it so party members can be set up in a fire and forget style, and acknowledge its considerable appeal to lots of players favouring a real-time playstyle. But at the same time, that's a less enjoyable way to play party-based TRPGs for me and others. I like making all the decisions of who does what (not just because I think I do it better than AI can, but also because I simply enjoy co-ordinating multiple characters tactically in a precise way). Based on that I would,of course, urge developments in line with *more* support for my preference; consider some options for configuring conditional autopauses a la BG2, consider a new TRPG that's TB yet as sexy as DAO (drool). At the very least I would ask that my playstyle not be further neglected or fazed out as TRPG development progresses. Keep ensuring the TB TRPG fan is catered for in some way wherever the AI tactics system leads, because however uber an AI system you create, there's always going to be some like me that prefer to do it all themselves regardless (and more that like to flit between the two playstyles according to whim or need). We may be a minority, but if you can continue to make games that manage to retain appeal for TB TRPG fans, you'll keep those fans.
Fairly easy once you twig what's going on - some of the labelling could be more user-friendly so that the different sections are more WYSIWYG'd (read some posts suggesting some users didn't find it intuitive, not getting that the left are IF statements and the right page is for THEN statements completing what's on the left, that kinda stuff). I myself grasped it pretty intuitively.
[*]What would you improve in the tactical interface?
Labels; tooltip text for sections; a more obvious visual representation that makes it impossible to not intuit that statements made on the left page (the IFs/CONDITIONS) are completed by those on the right page (the THENS/RESPONSES) - I think it's fairly obvious that's how it works but from some threads I've seen not everyone picks it up from looking at it; some way of separately ordering ranged versus melee without losing defensive behaviour (e.g. either have offensive ranged and defensive ranged, or have ranged/melee toggles operate in a different dropdown list to offensive/defensive behaviours).
[*]Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
Mostly
[*]How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
To the ones that can be set, they respond. There are plenty of conditions and contexts that there's no way to set behaviour for but that's not such a problem for me as some1 that tends to switch off the tactics and micromanage everything anyway (primarily positioning of characters to make use of terrain such as doorways as bottlenecks).
It might get too cluttered trying to cram all of those terrain and situational contexts into that kind of interface, which is fine so long as it isn't expected to *replace* entirely the user's own control of players (which it of course isn't in DAO - we can toggle off the AI and pause and direct fully every action). Keep that flexibility so that limitations of the AI don't limit the player, and also to please folks like me that prefer to micromanage anyhow.
[*]Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Yes. They're a bit triggy-happy with AOE spells. Given I don't tend to use the tactics I avoid that but when I tried them out I noted it. Also noted it with that teamkilling foo Avernus in Warden's Keep - he was so liberal with his friendly fire I was tempted to retaliate a few times. I also find it odd that "holding position" prevents them from using their AI completely (sometimes a player might want to position their characters strategically based on the terrain and enemy positions and have them hold those positions but still attack - at first I thought I'd forgot to untoggle party select, but nope, it really was my telling them to hold that meant they stood there while getting flayed).
[*]What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
Please oh please oh please, *never* give up on supporting players that prefer to micromanage in party-based TRPGs. I've noticed a decline in support for my micromanaging playstyle preference over the years.
There used to be tons of fully turn-based TRPGs that were cool (ToEE was one of my favourite TB combat systems). TB TRPGs started to dwindle in availability. Subsequent ones that hybridized TB and RT play (BG/BG2) held their appeal to the TB player in me - I could configure their range of configurable autopause options and essentially be enjoying it in a TB stylee, while others not liking TB play could do their thang.
With DAO the support is further lessened (doh) but thankfully still present (in the form of the one autopause condition - upon combat - and manual pausing, which used together give a somewhat fiddly approximation of TB play that I can live with but that isn't optimal for my preferences). If, in future TRPGs, the support for my micromanaging (control-freak?) playstyle gets fazed out any further, it won't exist, which would be a shame. Currently, almost all recent TB TRPGs are low budget ones from indie studios
I know you've developed this lovely AI tactics system and developed toward real-time playability and here I am saying my preference is to not use it - but I hope that's taken in the spirit I'm delivering it. I respect and understand the effort behind making DAO real-time friendly and having it so party members can be set up in a fire and forget style, and acknowledge its considerable appeal to lots of players favouring a real-time playstyle. But at the same time, that's a less enjoyable way to play party-based TRPGs for me and others. I like making all the decisions of who does what (not just because I think I do it better than AI can, but also because I simply enjoy co-ordinating multiple characters tactically in a precise way). Based on that I would,of course, urge developments in line with *more* support for my preference; consider some options for configuring conditional autopauses a la BG2, consider a new TRPG that's TB yet as sexy as DAO (drool). At the very least I would ask that my playstyle not be further neglected or fazed out as TRPG development progresses. Keep ensuring the TB TRPG fan is catered for in some way wherever the AI tactics system leads, because however uber an AI system you create, there's always going to be some like me that prefer to do it all themselves regardless (and more that like to flit between the two playstyles according to whim or need). We may be a minority, but if you can continue to make games that manage to retain appeal for TB TRPG fans, you'll keep those fans.
Modifié par Statue, 07 janvier 2010 - 01:31 .
#88
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:16
Dragon Age1103
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* How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
I feel for the most part it is easy to quickly understand all of your user interface along with the tactics tab. I feel some more detailed wording or even a brief description could help players understand some tactics better & faster.
* What would you improve in the tactical interface?
Regarding the tactics tab I would add more tactics slot at no cost of vital skill points to the player. I feel you can enjoy the game managing all party members but I'm sure a lot of people do not want to be stuck micro managing their entire party each & every battle. If you set your tactics correctly you can focus on your main character, enjoy the animations, & not have to bounce back & forth aside from larger scale battles & boss battles. I feel this is the way the game should run so i would add more tactics slots at the start of the game so you can enjoy the well made animations of your character slaughtering Darkspawn scum!!!!
* Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
Yes, for the most part. Every once in a while they ignore a command(or it doesn't register in game b/c the command icon does not appear) or they venture off in the wrong direction for a second or two.
* How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
I find for the majority of the time they respond quickly & accurately but some times there is a slight(2-4 seconds) delay between actions for no good reason.
* Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Yes, at the start of a battle if I pause then issue commands to each party member, then I unpause to start the battle. The result is a what seems to be 20-80 chance (20% something goes wrong) that all those commands will be ignored. This also happens randomly during battle not just at the start. I assume there is a point in the game where if i pause too quickly before the game registers that the characters my party were just talking to in the cut scene are now hostiles but if I assign the commands to quickly before those little red rings come up the AI just tosses those orders to the side. Just speculation though, i could be way off.
* What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
As I said the improvements I would like are 1more free tactics slots 2 a group heal(if there isn't one) that can be assigned to be casted when 2 or more party members hit a certain level of health. 3 be able to assign your mage to use the resurrection spell on a specific party member 4 instructing party members when to apply what poisons 5 for specific battle instances that i sadly have no example for being able to hold 1-4 of your party members instead of all or nothing as it is now.
I apologize if some of those tactics options are already available I would not know b/c my 1st two play throughs I found a system that worked for my play style & party configuration so I just stuck with it throughout most of the game.
* I also want to say a thanks to Bioware for reaching out & asking the fans what they want.
*one more side note. I think the trap making skill should be reworked so that you can not only craft & set traps but disarm them as well. I find it just odd that you can craft a trap with your bare hands & a few materials even set it but disarming is an unknown art to your character unless you're a rogue or have very very high cunning I believe. please correct me if I am wrong.
#89
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:18
Dragon Age1103
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oh yes someone else also mention this i would love to have my archers & mages stand back farther instead of rubbing on the enemies they are casting spell or shooting. lol. I don't believe that option is available
#90
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:20
LaughingDragon
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Victor,
The tactics system has too many bugs.
One very frustrating bug that really bothers me is in regard to morrigan/shapeshifting. When I set her tactics to mana/stamaina <10% activate shapeshift, she correctly executes and shapeshifts into a spider (or whatever).
But when I set mana/stamina >75% deactivate shapeshift, she never deactivates her shapeshift and remains in shapeshifted form until I manually deactivate or go to a new area.
Extremely frustrating when you are utilizing a shapeshifter in your group.
Could you tell the team to please address this? thank you sir.
1) Tactical interface is very easy to use - good work there
2) I would improve the tactical interface by adding more helpful tooltips
3) Followers are only sometimes responsive in tactical conditions. Often they are not responsive. (see my shapeshifting comment above)
4) I have seen characters behave unusually, IE stopping their attacks, not engaging enemies properly, and not executing their tactics per my tactical settings.
5) I would like more control over my parties behavior including more tactical options and more slots. I would also really appreciate a more challenging game experience with more difficult encounters where I can make use of intelligent tactics - with the current game even on nightmare there is zero challenge as every encounter is an utter massacre for the enemy AI ( when using a 4 man party).
-S
-PS: Victor, if you have any questions or are interested in tactics related bugs feel free to PM me I utilize the tactics system extensively and have plenty of feedback.
The tactics system has too many bugs.
One very frustrating bug that really bothers me is in regard to morrigan/shapeshifting. When I set her tactics to mana/stamaina <10% activate shapeshift, she correctly executes and shapeshifts into a spider (or whatever).
But when I set mana/stamina >75% deactivate shapeshift, she never deactivates her shapeshift and remains in shapeshifted form until I manually deactivate or go to a new area.
Extremely frustrating when you are utilizing a shapeshifter in your group.
Could you tell the team to please address this? thank you sir.
Victor Wachter wrote...How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
[/list]
1) Tactical interface is very easy to use - good work there
2) I would improve the tactical interface by adding more helpful tooltips
3) Followers are only sometimes responsive in tactical conditions. Often they are not responsive. (see my shapeshifting comment above)
4) I have seen characters behave unusually, IE stopping their attacks, not engaging enemies properly, and not executing their tactics per my tactical settings.
5) I would like more control over my parties behavior including more tactical options and more slots. I would also really appreciate a more challenging game experience with more difficult encounters where I can make use of intelligent tactics - with the current game even on nightmare there is zero challenge as every encounter is an utter massacre for the enemy AI ( when using a 4 man party).
-S
-PS: Victor, if you have any questions or are interested in tactics related bugs feel free to PM me I utilize the tactics system extensively and have plenty of feedback.
Modifié par LaughingDragon, 07 janvier 2010 - 01:29 .
#91
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:27
tymay33
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so far i love the tactics system, i don't find that theres really anything wrong with it except for some minor bugs here and there.
Some of the minor bugs i've noticed:
Enemy: first seen ---> Use ability: Glyph of Paralysis
Enemy: status paralized ---> Use ability Glyph: of Repulsion
To some of you who dont already know, the mix of the two spells forms a combination spell known as: paralysis explosion. This "explosion" paralizes anything within its radius and lasts for a descent amount of time. As awesome as that sounds, it realy does you know good when the rest of your party is caught inside, its even worse when everyone gets caught inside. So what im asking for is this:
Enemy: status paralized ---> Use ability: Glyph of Paralysis ---> Unless ally at short range of target
Another feature i'd like to see is custom behavior settings, dont get me wrong the default settings are fine but when i have Liliana as an archer with behavior set to ranged i never see her run away when shes being attacked, she'll just sit there two feet away from something shooting at it, which in turn causes her to die...A lot. The only thing i hav found to offset this (far from a fix) is to set one of her tactics to use "captivate" when surrounded by 2 or more enemies.
So give me the option like:
When being attacked by a melee attack: Attack, do nothing, or flee (3 different options, not one)
But dont make that a tactic, make it in a customizable behavior menu
Some of the minor bugs i've noticed:
- AI just stands there in a fight
- The archer switching to a melee weapon (not neccesarily a problem when its supposed to do that, but they never switch back afterwards)
- An "unless" column - Right now we have this feature "Use this ability and when" what i'd like to see is "use this ability when and UNLESS..." This wouldn't be much help with warrior or rogue but it would be extremely helpful with AOE's on hard or nightmare difficulty setting.
Enemy: first seen ---> Use ability: Glyph of Paralysis
Enemy: status paralized ---> Use ability Glyph: of Repulsion
To some of you who dont already know, the mix of the two spells forms a combination spell known as: paralysis explosion. This "explosion" paralizes anything within its radius and lasts for a descent amount of time. As awesome as that sounds, it realy does you know good when the rest of your party is caught inside, its even worse when everyone gets caught inside. So what im asking for is this:
Enemy: status paralized ---> Use ability: Glyph of Paralysis ---> Unless ally at short range of target
Another feature i'd like to see is custom behavior settings, dont get me wrong the default settings are fine but when i have Liliana as an archer with behavior set to ranged i never see her run away when shes being attacked, she'll just sit there two feet away from something shooting at it, which in turn causes her to die...A lot. The only thing i hav found to offset this (far from a fix) is to set one of her tactics to use "captivate" when surrounded by 2 or more enemies.
So give me the option like:
When being attacked by a melee attack: Attack, do nothing, or flee (3 different options, not one)
But dont make that a tactic, make it in a customizable behavior menu
Modifié par tymay33, 07 janvier 2010 - 01:32 .
#92
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:30
Dragon Age1103
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mhv33 wrote...
I found that I wanted a lot more tactics slots. Maybe I'm unusual but I found myself wishing for 30 or more slots.
lol, 30 seems like a bit much but I couldn't agree more!!!
#93
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:33
LaughingDragon
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tymay33 wrote...
archer switching to a melee weapon (not neccesarily a problem when its supposed to do that, but they never switch back afterwards)
You can solve the archer problem by 1. taking away their melee weapons so they only have a bow or 2. Switch their behavior preset to "ranged" and they will stay back and always favor a bow.
-S
#94
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:07
RinpocheSchnozberry
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Victor Wachter burped in one go...
[*]How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
After about a few mintues, I caught on and understood all the options. It's very easy.
[*]What would you improve in the tactical interface?
1) Import/Export function. After six play throughs, having to redo everything is annoying. I'd like to take my tactics from the end game of playthrough 1, export them to an xml or something. Then, on play through 2, I import the xml. It sits there on my tactics screen with all the spells the character lacks greyed out. Then, say I have 3 tactics slots. I can go through and enable the valid tactics I want.
2) "Party Tactics". Tactics that apply to every party memeber and precede their individual tactics. I always set my buddies to recharge their health or mana with the weakest potion when they hit 50%. It's annoying to have to do it on each of the little buggers lest they snuff it real horrorshow. Which would sadden me.
3) "Gimmie slots" If there can't be "Party Tactics," how about 2 more slots in the begining to cover the "Don't fart in a hot car" kinds of tactics.
4) There are default "stances" like Aggressive, Defensive, etc for combat... how about some stances for healing, potions, and buffs?
5) Make the DJ Killa Remix play every time the tactics window opens.
[*]Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
[*]How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
Usually responsive. I'd prefer my AI "cone" spell useage to be a bit more intelligent and a little less "WTF MORRIGAN THAT WAS OGHREN." In general, they could be a little less willing to do friendly fire with Cone of Cold most notably.
I don't think I've seen one of my party memebers heal a "blue ring" ally, despite all my tactics saying "ally." Perhaps that's intended, or I'm dense, but I'm a carebear and I become sad when my buddies get pwnd. :*-(
What does frequently ****** me off is the suicidal, often counter productive insanity of the "blue ring" guys in Redcliff and toward the end. I suspect that is beyond the scope of the tactics, but since we're pie-in-the-skying, how about some "Ally Tactics?"
[*]Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
I've seen a few instances when they would go haring off in melee
rather than hop over to ranged, or stand in one spot and cycle through
all their attacks in like 2 seconds while twitching left and right, but no more than a half dozen
times in six play throughs.
[*]What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
I don't know. Spice melange? I hope you don't mean voice or Project Natal.
How about tactic sets that are sensitive to the party's condition? So Morigan is DPS until Wynne drops, then Morrigan notices that and starts healing?Overall, I like the tactics. I would like more slots. Yes, I know about the mods. ;-)
#95
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:11
pox67
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So far tactics are working OK but should be free (skill wise). They are a game mechanic not a character skill.
Tactics are fine, just give each a char the full complement from the beginning.
Tactics are fine, just give each a char the full complement from the beginning.
#96
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:18
Nalesia
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[*]How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
Easy, I can't think of anything I'd like to see changed.
[*]What would you improve in the tactical interface?
A way to set priorities (if there isn't already - never noticed) would be great, like the upper tactics having higher priority than the lower ones in a situation where multiple tactics are eligible, for example placing 'Fireball clustered group' above 'Arcane bolt' means they won't toss around Arcane Bolts before Fireballing that group.
Pop ups of spell descriptions when you hover over them would be nice.
[*]Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
I only use 'Ranged' and 'Default,' so I can't comment on the others, but these are fine.
[*]How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
Seems fine.
[*]Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Mana Clash with criteria 'enemy mage' seems to get spammed on anyone, even if they don't have mana.
If you use the criteria 'clustered enemies' with a melee skill like Dual Weapon Sweep, they use it as soon as there are clustered enemies in range, no matter how far away, so they'll just swing at air. They should be intelligent enough to run up to them before using it.
[*]What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
A way to select any number of members instead of only 1 or all 4 (is there already?).
If I do select all four, that's usually because I want them to focus on the same enemy, so I still want them to use their skills, but they don't because I control them manually. However if I let them go, they'll go on their own way again and run around solo'ing random enemies, so neither option is satisfying, unless you fill your tactic slots with all sorts of criteria when they should assist you, which brings me to...
[/list]Other issues:
I don't like how the ammount of tactics slots are linked to the Combat Tactics skill and don't see a logical reason for it to. Having it or not has nothing to do with challenge or skill, it just makes you need to pause more and increase the number of manual orders you have to give. It depends on the type of build, of course, but for example an entropy mage needs a lot of tactic slots to function and make use of his/her spells (think Sleep - Horror - Nightmare), while a dual wield warrior only needs few. I don't think it's fair to push one character in to 'requiring' Combat Tactics to make your life easier, just because she happens to be more complicated. All characters should have more than enough tactic slots by default.
What happens now is you needing to babysit your party members if you prefer something other than the Combat Tactics skill, which has nothing to do with challenge, skill, or even fun. I don't think saying: "You have to pick and choose, weigh the important versus the less important." (like with the limited inventory) is a valid reason, as there's an easy way to work around it by manually babysitting your characters, plus it puts disadvantage on certain complicated builds. I doubt it's the intention to discourage such builds. It only damages the game experience.
Some skills, like Scattershot, are not available after an obvious 'if enemies are clustered' criteria like they should be. Probably because it's officially a single target skill, but still...
There also aren't suitable criteria for spells like Group Heal or Mass Rejuvenation.
Overall, I think the whole tactics system is very nice, even though I only make use of it on a 'basic' level, with mostly straight forward spammy skills. That's partly because of the limited ammount of slots but also because I can judge much better when to use certain big skills or combo's than the AI can and because sifting endlessly through the tactics for all party members is boring and more hassle than worth to me, but that's fine with me.
(Playing Nightmare only, PC version)
Easy, I can't think of anything I'd like to see changed.
[*]What would you improve in the tactical interface?
A way to set priorities (if there isn't already - never noticed) would be great, like the upper tactics having higher priority than the lower ones in a situation where multiple tactics are eligible, for example placing 'Fireball clustered group' above 'Arcane bolt' means they won't toss around Arcane Bolts before Fireballing that group.
Pop ups of spell descriptions when you hover over them would be nice.
[*]Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
I only use 'Ranged' and 'Default,' so I can't comment on the others, but these are fine.
[*]How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
Seems fine.
[*]Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
Mana Clash with criteria 'enemy mage' seems to get spammed on anyone, even if they don't have mana.
If you use the criteria 'clustered enemies' with a melee skill like Dual Weapon Sweep, they use it as soon as there are clustered enemies in range, no matter how far away, so they'll just swing at air. They should be intelligent enough to run up to them before using it.
[*]What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
A way to select any number of members instead of only 1 or all 4 (is there already?).
If I do select all four, that's usually because I want them to focus on the same enemy, so I still want them to use their skills, but they don't because I control them manually. However if I let them go, they'll go on their own way again and run around solo'ing random enemies, so neither option is satisfying, unless you fill your tactic slots with all sorts of criteria when they should assist you, which brings me to...
[/list]Other issues:
I don't like how the ammount of tactics slots are linked to the Combat Tactics skill and don't see a logical reason for it to. Having it or not has nothing to do with challenge or skill, it just makes you need to pause more and increase the number of manual orders you have to give. It depends on the type of build, of course, but for example an entropy mage needs a lot of tactic slots to function and make use of his/her spells (think Sleep - Horror - Nightmare), while a dual wield warrior only needs few. I don't think it's fair to push one character in to 'requiring' Combat Tactics to make your life easier, just because she happens to be more complicated. All characters should have more than enough tactic slots by default.
What happens now is you needing to babysit your party members if you prefer something other than the Combat Tactics skill, which has nothing to do with challenge, skill, or even fun. I don't think saying: "You have to pick and choose, weigh the important versus the less important." (like with the limited inventory) is a valid reason, as there's an easy way to work around it by manually babysitting your characters, plus it puts disadvantage on certain complicated builds. I doubt it's the intention to discourage such builds. It only damages the game experience.
Some skills, like Scattershot, are not available after an obvious 'if enemies are clustered' criteria like they should be. Probably because it's officially a single target skill, but still...
There also aren't suitable criteria for spells like Group Heal or Mass Rejuvenation.
Overall, I think the whole tactics system is very nice, even though I only make use of it on a 'basic' level, with mostly straight forward spammy skills. That's partly because of the limited ammount of slots but also because I can judge much better when to use certain big skills or combo's than the AI can and because sifting endlessly through the tactics for all party members is boring and more hassle than worth to me, but that's fine with me.
(Playing Nightmare only, PC version)
Modifié par Nalesia, 07 janvier 2010 - 04:33 .
#97
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:24
tmelange
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Hey! This is a great idea! I love being asked my in-depth opinion, and being made to feel like what I think counts. Victor, you rock socks. 
I've been haunting these boards, like watching a realty show episode on bad behavior. Finally, something constructive to do!
First, some context: 40 yo female, law degree, big Bioware fan, have loved computer RPGs forever. Don't have a D&D background but have loved fantasy as a genre forever. I play for the story, dialogue and character interaction. I always have to warm to the combat system in a new game. I started playing DA:O on normal but it got too hard and I downgraded to casual. However, after I played the game a couple of times, and got the hang of the combat, I moved back up to normal for a while. I have a general interest in trying to play the higher difficulties but it makes the combat last so long, and my favorite part is the story (and my time is limited). So....I haven't been motivated to bother too much with the combat for its own sake, generally.
As an initial matter, the tactical system seemed like a great idea to me in theory. Very Boolean. However, in practice, it wasn't as easy to use the system as I thought it was going to be when I first looked it over -- or, better to say, I expected complex and logical Boolean but I found the system to be much less than that so it ended up being more difficult for me to figure out exactly what would work the way I envisioned. I think the main problem that I had was that I needed a compendium, or at least an explanation, of some of the different options, and how they would interact together. It probably seems crazy to you because, duh, drink health potion at 25% health, but the health and mana options were on the short list of obvious. There was the issue of how certain tactics would actually work in practice (because, in many instances you couldn't just stand around and see how things would shake out) and then there was the issue of how the different commands played off each other. The first thing I thought was: "I don't have time for this! I want to play the game! I want to talk to Alistair! I'll figure this out...later!" The second thing: "I wish I had a list of sample commands for ideal situations. I need to find a wiki..." I found myself taking a look at what the computer inserted into open slots to get ideas of some cool ways to use the tactics that were within the structure and actually worked. Of course, one of the main issues to use the tactics screen is that you have to have a full knowledge of how every skill and effect works--in order to know what you can do with the system. I still only know how about 1/4th of the skills, spells and whatnot actually work in practice. I tend to find something that kills and stick with it. lol
So...long story short, I still feel like the tactics screen was a whole aspect of the game that I missed, sort of like a game within a game that I didn't have enough motivation to explore.
That's not to say that I didn't make use of tactics. I did, certainly to try to keep certain characters in good health and mana'd up. I used tactics on the mages, in particular, to tell them to throw area spells and to hit the right monster with cone of cold. I felt the mages were woefully underutilized and almost useless unless you assigned them some key tactics.
I found the most confounding use of the tactics screen to happen when trying to program Leliana. If you wanted her to stay back and use a ranged attack, it was hard to find the right combination of disposition (aggressive, etc.) and tactics to get her to do what you wanted. I got to the point where she would stay back but often she would simply not start shooting at all. She would just stand there. You sort of wanted to be able to get her to stay back, but still move into range to shoot. I had to keep switching to her to make her start shooting and then switching back to my character.
The other issue I had with the tactics screen was not being able to do what I wanted to do, which was odd since there were so many options. For instance, with Zevran. I wanted him to be able to use the poisons since he has that ability. I wanted to instruct him: When someone attacks you, use available poison on blade. Couldn't seem to do that, because when you set the use item he would use it but not fight. He would just stand there (like the command was looping).
Another issue that I had with the tactics interface was its combat limitation. I really wanted a command that would tell Leliana or Zevran to open locks once I tried to open it and failed. So, instead of saying: "I could do that" and making me switch to Leiliana EVERY time I wanted to open a lock, she would say her peace and the OPEN THE LOCK. lol
Multiple times I tried to implement a tactic with a party and it just didn't work out at all like I expected. I'm trying to think of an example...I can't think of a specific example right now (unless I were to turn on the xbox and look at the interface to jog my memory) other than the Zevran issue with use item, but what I will say is that because of this, I became a little hesitant to mess up the computer generated tactic that automatically populated the slots. Almost like the character creator effect. Once you mess it up...it's really messed up. lol I would have liked an option to...return to default? Or at least to have a computer generated tactic populate a slot to see what the computer would come up with, sort of the way you can get the computer to auto-up your level in certain games.
I keep Alistair with me almost all the time when I play, and I don't mess with him too much, other than to change his tactics so that he drinks health potions when he's low. I had a problem with setting this at 25% percent, though, because sometimes, he would die, even though he should have just consumed a potion. Now, obviously, if he were hit with something that injured him more than the health differential on one turn, he wouldn't have time to drink another potion. But I have taken time to watch him on occasion to figure out why my 25% rule wasn't working as consistently as I needed it to and I observed that he just simply...didn't drink a potion. He had enough time to, he just...didn't. To get this to work consistently I had to up it to 50%, which wastes a lot of potions but it's worth it so I don't have to worry about him. lol
So, the long and the short is that I tinker with the tactics system. Since I don't play at a high difficulty, I haven't needed to do much with the system beyond what I am doing. However, it would be much more likely that I would play at the higher difficulty if the tactics system had something compiled (with examples) that I could study so I could learn to use it to do really complicated things that would amuse me.
I think DA:O needs a sort of Art of War nightmare tactics book, lol. I would buy that in hard copy.
ETA: I forgot, one of the things that threw me out of using the tactics system in the beginning was the inability to put certain commands in time order. I wanted to be able to make nesting sets, so that certain of my slots were applicable generally, and others had to be completed in order. Once I realized that I couldn't do that, and because I was happy playing on casual, the importance of bothering with tactics (especially as a way to drag out combat) simply fell away.
I've been haunting these boards, like watching a realty show episode on bad behavior. Finally, something constructive to do!First, some context: 40 yo female, law degree, big Bioware fan, have loved computer RPGs forever. Don't have a D&D background but have loved fantasy as a genre forever. I play for the story, dialogue and character interaction. I always have to warm to the combat system in a new game. I started playing DA:O on normal but it got too hard and I downgraded to casual. However, after I played the game a couple of times, and got the hang of the combat, I moved back up to normal for a while. I have a general interest in trying to play the higher difficulties but it makes the combat last so long, and my favorite part is the story (and my time is limited). So....I haven't been motivated to bother too much with the combat for its own sake, generally.
As an initial matter, the tactical system seemed like a great idea to me in theory. Very Boolean. However, in practice, it wasn't as easy to use the system as I thought it was going to be when I first looked it over -- or, better to say, I expected complex and logical Boolean but I found the system to be much less than that so it ended up being more difficult for me to figure out exactly what would work the way I envisioned. I think the main problem that I had was that I needed a compendium, or at least an explanation, of some of the different options, and how they would interact together. It probably seems crazy to you because, duh, drink health potion at 25% health, but the health and mana options were on the short list of obvious. There was the issue of how certain tactics would actually work in practice (because, in many instances you couldn't just stand around and see how things would shake out) and then there was the issue of how the different commands played off each other. The first thing I thought was: "I don't have time for this! I want to play the game! I want to talk to Alistair! I'll figure this out...later!" The second thing: "I wish I had a list of sample commands for ideal situations. I need to find a wiki..." I found myself taking a look at what the computer inserted into open slots to get ideas of some cool ways to use the tactics that were within the structure and actually worked. Of course, one of the main issues to use the tactics screen is that you have to have a full knowledge of how every skill and effect works--in order to know what you can do with the system. I still only know how about 1/4th of the skills, spells and whatnot actually work in practice. I tend to find something that kills and stick with it. lol
So...long story short, I still feel like the tactics screen was a whole aspect of the game that I missed, sort of like a game within a game that I didn't have enough motivation to explore.
That's not to say that I didn't make use of tactics. I did, certainly to try to keep certain characters in good health and mana'd up. I used tactics on the mages, in particular, to tell them to throw area spells and to hit the right monster with cone of cold. I felt the mages were woefully underutilized and almost useless unless you assigned them some key tactics.
I found the most confounding use of the tactics screen to happen when trying to program Leliana. If you wanted her to stay back and use a ranged attack, it was hard to find the right combination of disposition (aggressive, etc.) and tactics to get her to do what you wanted. I got to the point where she would stay back but often she would simply not start shooting at all. She would just stand there. You sort of wanted to be able to get her to stay back, but still move into range to shoot. I had to keep switching to her to make her start shooting and then switching back to my character.
The other issue I had with the tactics screen was not being able to do what I wanted to do, which was odd since there were so many options. For instance, with Zevran. I wanted him to be able to use the poisons since he has that ability. I wanted to instruct him: When someone attacks you, use available poison on blade. Couldn't seem to do that, because when you set the use item he would use it but not fight. He would just stand there (like the command was looping).
Another issue that I had with the tactics interface was its combat limitation. I really wanted a command that would tell Leliana or Zevran to open locks once I tried to open it and failed. So, instead of saying: "I could do that" and making me switch to Leiliana EVERY time I wanted to open a lock, she would say her peace and the OPEN THE LOCK. lol
Multiple times I tried to implement a tactic with a party and it just didn't work out at all like I expected. I'm trying to think of an example...I can't think of a specific example right now (unless I were to turn on the xbox and look at the interface to jog my memory) other than the Zevran issue with use item, but what I will say is that because of this, I became a little hesitant to mess up the computer generated tactic that automatically populated the slots. Almost like the character creator effect. Once you mess it up...it's really messed up. lol I would have liked an option to...return to default? Or at least to have a computer generated tactic populate a slot to see what the computer would come up with, sort of the way you can get the computer to auto-up your level in certain games.
I keep Alistair with me almost all the time when I play, and I don't mess with him too much, other than to change his tactics so that he drinks health potions when he's low. I had a problem with setting this at 25% percent, though, because sometimes, he would die, even though he should have just consumed a potion. Now, obviously, if he were hit with something that injured him more than the health differential on one turn, he wouldn't have time to drink another potion. But I have taken time to watch him on occasion to figure out why my 25% rule wasn't working as consistently as I needed it to and I observed that he just simply...didn't drink a potion. He had enough time to, he just...didn't. To get this to work consistently I had to up it to 50%, which wastes a lot of potions but it's worth it so I don't have to worry about him. lol
So, the long and the short is that I tinker with the tactics system. Since I don't play at a high difficulty, I haven't needed to do much with the system beyond what I am doing. However, it would be much more likely that I would play at the higher difficulty if the tactics system had something compiled (with examples) that I could study so I could learn to use it to do really complicated things that would amuse me.
I think DA:O needs a sort of Art of War nightmare tactics book, lol. I would buy that in hard copy.ETA: I forgot, one of the things that threw me out of using the tactics system in the beginning was the inability to put certain commands in time order. I wanted to be able to make nesting sets, so that certain of my slots were applicable generally, and others had to be completed in order. Once I realized that I couldn't do that, and because I was happy playing on casual, the importance of bothering with tactics (especially as a way to drag out combat) simply fell away.
Modifié par tmelange, 07 janvier 2010 - 03:56 .
#98
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:31
evilhouseboat
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- Members
- 92 messages
Would it be possible, when toggle menu mode is selected on the console version, that the game does not unpause when an ability is selected. This would allow me to set-up the entire party without constantly having to pause.
#99
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:41
Sloimpreza
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- Members
- 37 messages
First off thank you creating this thread official from Bioware. There has been some discussions regarding the tactics system but its not localized and here we have a criteria or list of things specific to talk about so thanks.
I am on PS3 so some issues are strictly for consoles so it will certainly vary with PC controls.
How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
[/list]I think it is fairly simple, you have conditions and what to do with those conditions.
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
[/list]Improvements would probably to offer more options regarding movement and positioning. Movement options of characters are certainly lacking. Perhaps I have not found it, but characters do not know how to position themselves for range attack or move away from mobs.
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
[/list]Ranged setting I find it to be an issue. They would stand in place to do damage but in certain situations, they would run right up next to the melee characters to do their range attacking. This happens in about 30-40% of encounters.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
[/list]I find that some of the conditions like enemy menu (rank, health, etc) all work everytime. Those are the ones I've used most and it appears to work just fine.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
[/list]I would set Shale to aggressive/defender and sometimes, he would just
stand around (not stunned or anythng) turning with a darkspawn and not
do anything until after the rest of the party has started doing damage
to it. Could this be because there is no attack closest enemy tactic
slot?
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
[/list]There is a radial option to stop, but this goes for all characters -
there could be options to enable 'stop' to flagged 'range' setting
characters or 'melee' characters and that would offer some more options
during combat. Obvously we want more control over our party and trying
to do tactics like stop 'ranged' characters and more 'melee'
characters, that would end up being a lot of tactics
Perhaps another option is to have 1 tactic slot under 1 condition do multiple actions. ex.
condition - closest enemy
action 1 - winter grasp
action 2 - stone fist
Or
if you to give all your gamers a basic tutorial concerning basic
programming then you could add If then statements. But I guess thats
not likely or very feasible.
Since the game already has 'shatter' system inplace - would like to
have a condition available for frozen or petrified. There is only a
visual representation of this action and it would be great if we can
have a conition that is available so we can take advantage of it.
I would really wish the consoles could get a keyboard mouse support. Not sure what the issue is here but mostly I think it is the revenue from peripherals they are looking at. So fine, make/rebadge a bluetooth keyboard mouse option and get it certified and we gamers will buy it if it is a cost issue.
Another option is allow console users to be able to use the little keyboard attachment that is now already available. We would then have more buttons, and perhaps be able to implement a skill bar similar to what the PC version has. Oh the ps3 one is $50 and 360 is $30 ... hmm might have to rethink that option but there are stuff available to free up some options for you. Maybe talk to both Sony and Microsoft, maybe release DA2 or something with the attachment and get a discount - everybody wins.
I am on PS3 so some issues are strictly for consoles so it will certainly vary with PC controls.
How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
[/list]I think it is fairly simple, you have conditions and what to do with those conditions.
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
[/list]Improvements would probably to offer more options regarding movement and positioning. Movement options of characters are certainly lacking. Perhaps I have not found it, but characters do not know how to position themselves for range attack or move away from mobs.
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
[/list]Ranged setting I find it to be an issue. They would stand in place to do damage but in certain situations, they would run right up next to the melee characters to do their range attacking. This happens in about 30-40% of encounters.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
[/list]I find that some of the conditions like enemy menu (rank, health, etc) all work everytime. Those are the ones I've used most and it appears to work just fine.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
[/list]I would set Shale to aggressive/defender and sometimes, he would just
stand around (not stunned or anythng) turning with a darkspawn and not
do anything until after the rest of the party has started doing damage
to it. Could this be because there is no attack closest enemy tactic
slot?
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
[/list]There is a radial option to stop, but this goes for all characters -
there could be options to enable 'stop' to flagged 'range' setting
characters or 'melee' characters and that would offer some more options
during combat. Obvously we want more control over our party and trying
to do tactics like stop 'ranged' characters and more 'melee'
characters, that would end up being a lot of tactics
Perhaps another option is to have 1 tactic slot under 1 condition do multiple actions. ex.
condition - closest enemy
action 1 - winter grasp
action 2 - stone fist
Or
if you to give all your gamers a basic tutorial concerning basic
programming then you could add If then statements. But I guess thats
not likely or very feasible.
Since the game already has 'shatter' system inplace - would like to
have a condition available for frozen or petrified. There is only a
visual representation of this action and it would be great if we can
have a conition that is available so we can take advantage of it.
I would really wish the consoles could get a keyboard mouse support. Not sure what the issue is here but mostly I think it is the revenue from peripherals they are looking at. So fine, make/rebadge a bluetooth keyboard mouse option and get it certified and we gamers will buy it if it is a cost issue.
Another option is allow console users to be able to use the little keyboard attachment that is now already available. We would then have more buttons, and perhaps be able to implement a skill bar similar to what the PC version has. Oh the ps3 one is $50 and 360 is $30 ... hmm might have to rethink that option but there are stuff available to free up some options for you. Maybe talk to both Sony and Microsoft, maybe release DA2 or something with the attachment and get a discount - everybody wins.
#100
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:50
Kevin Lynch
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- Members
- 1 874 messages
I'm going to write up some answers before I read others' opinions, so I don't influence myself.
How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
I find it quite easy. Menus to submenus based on categories, drag and drop order, it's all good.
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
For the interface itself, perhaps have pop-up descriptions of abilities, etc, so that it's easier to remember/understand what you are choosing, especially for new players so they don't have to check this outside the tactics screen.
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
I've frequently had characters break off attacks (battle is already on) for no apparent reason just to join my main character in formation because he/she moved and wasn't currently attacking. I've not been able to determine when/why this happens, only that it's extremely annoying to find everyone running back to me when they should be attacking. Quite possibly due to the missing tactic of attacking the nearest enemy, but if they are already in combat you'd think they should continue. Once they get back to my character they immediately turn and go back to fighting, so the tactic of attacking nearest (or anyone) shouldn't be an issue. This is typically with the behavior always set at default.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
They seem to work quite well, mainly because I order the tactics in a way I feel would work best when I'm not controlling them. I wish there was some "suspend tactics below this tactic if stamina/mana is less than whatever" type of tactic, though, so I don't have characters using up all their stamina/mana very early on by spamming their spells and talents like mad.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
I think I answered that one above (do they react as I expect).
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
I seriously would love the tactic "suspend tactics below this tactic if stamina/mana is less than whatever" that I mentioned above. Or one that suspends tactics that use stamina/mana, at least (that would make more sense, actually). Now, someone tell me that the tactic already exists and make me go doh!
How easy or difficult do you feel the tactical interface is to use?
I find it quite easy. Menus to submenus based on categories, drag and drop order, it's all good.
What would you improve in the tactical interface?
For the interface itself, perhaps have pop-up descriptions of abilities, etc, so that it's easier to remember/understand what you are choosing, especially for new players so they don't have to check this outside the tactics screen.
Do your party members react as you would expect them to under different tactical settings?
I've frequently had characters break off attacks (battle is already on) for no apparent reason just to join my main character in formation because he/she moved and wasn't currently attacking. I've not been able to determine when/why this happens, only that it's extremely annoying to find everyone running back to me when they should be attacking. Quite possibly due to the missing tactic of attacking the nearest enemy, but if they are already in combat you'd think they should continue. Once they get back to my character they immediately turn and go back to fighting, so the tactic of attacking nearest (or anyone) shouldn't be an issue. This is typically with the behavior always set at default.
How responsive are your followers to different tactical conditions?
They seem to work quite well, mainly because I order the tactics in a way I feel would work best when I'm not controlling them. I wish there was some "suspend tactics below this tactic if stamina/mana is less than whatever" type of tactic, though, so I don't have characters using up all their stamina/mana very early on by spamming their spells and talents like mad.
Have you seen them behave unusually in any circumstances?
I think I answered that one above (do they react as I expect).
What kind of different ways would you want to control your party?
I seriously would love the tactic "suspend tactics below this tactic if stamina/mana is less than whatever" that I mentioned above. Or one that suspends tactics that use stamina/mana, at least (that would make more sense, actually). Now, someone tell me that the tactic already exists and make me go doh!
Modifié par Kevin Lynch, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:53 .
