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[silverexile17s]

iakus wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The galaxy was saved by Shepard. Plain and simple. It wasn't "luck." Luck only gets one so far. It took skill to get all the races together, and perserverance to make it to the Citadel. "Luck" had jack-all to do with anything.

The only races all Shepards unite are the humans and turians, with some reluctant backing from the asari. 

And the "perseverence" to get to the Citadel had mor eto do with Harbinger's blast being a bit wide, then deciding to go on a coffee break.

Tell me, what if Shepard had reached TIM before Anderson, and he made Anderson shoot Shepard instead?

What if Shepard passed out somewhere other than where the Magic Space Elevator happened to be?

What the hell are you talking about dude?
Shepard united the krogan with the genophage cure (and potentally the salarians by sabotaging it). Shepard got the hanar and drell to join by working with Kasumi and Jundom Bau to save Kajhe. Shepard got the volus and elcor to join by saving the elcor fleet, and getting krogan/turian support to Irune, the volus homeworld. Shepard single-handedly brokered peace between the geth and quarians. You actually look at all that and say "Shepard only united three races?"

Shepard survived, and got back up. Takes alot of willpower to get back up from injuries like that. It takes nothing but perserverance to survive injuries like that and still walk forward.

You really think it would have been any different?. Last I chekced, Anderson got injured by Harbinger too, considering he was breathing heavily and groaning on the radio. And it doesn't matter what order TIM "caught" them in. He can't stop them from speaking, so Shepard would still have been the one to talk to TIM.

Well, there's only one corridor. Since the Citadel was reshaping to erace all the organic construction, there was only the one monitoring station where TIM was, aside from those harvesting chambers where the human bodies get sent.

[silverexile17s]

iakus wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
At the end of the cycle, where time is of the essance and the end in plain sight? Really? That's the best you can do?

The Catayst is in danger - of losing his chance for Shepard to create the new solution. The Reaper's "harvest" is compulsitory. If Shepard doesn't chose sometime today, then the cycle will be wiped out and he will have to wait for the next cycle for an oppertunity like this. Remember, the Reapers are still cumpulsitory-harvesting life outside over Earth. He cannot override their pre-programed directives to harvest and "preserve" without violating his own programming regarding the continuation of the Solution. And remember that the Reapers still retain some semblance of free choice -- they aren't likely going to stop anytime soon. The likelyhood they will damage the Crucible is high - hence why time is of the essance. Plus there is every chance that Shepard may succumb to his/her injuries and die, leaving it all unfinished. So, yes, the Catalyst can be considered pressed for time in this scenerio.

That was a limitation in gameplay mehcanic. When they thought about it, they gave a reaction. Thus, that past version is retconned.

This is the end of the Solution. The Catalyst can't make any of these choices happen himself. If Shepard refuses, then the New Solution is left unfinished, and the Catalyst is left with the now revealed-to-be-flawed Old Solution. He must wait to see if the next cycle will be any better. Or the one after that. Or the one after that.

At the end of the cycle, when time is of the essence, the Catalyst is going to shut down the Crucible and just keep on reaping because...Shepard got angry.



If the Catalyst is in danger of losing this grand opportunity to get an organic to do its bidding, it's got no one to blame but itself.  It controls the Reapers. Therefore, the Reapers reap because the Catalyst tell them to.  That's what control is

The Catalyst is in complete control of the situation.  Shepard can't hurt it.  It's directing the Reapers.  And at this point it knows its solution doesn't work

Yet if Shepard decides to shoot the hologram in a futile gesture, it still goes "SO BE IT!" and keeps right on Reaping. It doesn't say "Feel better? Now pick a color" it doesn't say "That won't solve anything"  "Heck it doesn't even say "You got a better idea?"

Nope, my way or a slaughter-filled highway. "Pick a color or a kill everyone in the galaxy"


The Catalyst says that it's an AI in the same way a human is an animal.  Well, EDI is capable of altering her base programming.  The geth have been constantly evolving for the past three hundred years.  And the Catalyst can't stop reaping, when it was never programmed to in the first place?  

That's right.  The Catalyst decided the cycles were the solution.  ANd when it proved not to work anymore, it's somehow cmpelled to keep going?

Yeah, really advanced tech there /sarcasm

Wrong. If you spend time shooting instead of making a choice, it's obvious that you aren't intending to make the choice. Besides, ask yourself one question - how did the Catalyst know to take the form of that same kid?
We know that, based on what we've seen, the Reapers have at least some form of empath abality - similar to the telepathic abilaties the Levathans had. They could sense emotions and see memorized images from your mind. The Catayst can "read" Shepard - to a degree. Like the Levithans, he can read recent memories, and current emotions, but can't outright predict what Shepard would say or do. Like the "emotion reader aug" of Adam Jenssom from "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" could tell what emotional state the person is in.
So, with that in mind, I'm guessing that if Shepard shoots the Catalyst, the Catalyst would get a pretty strong "sense" of what Shepard's emotional state, and subsiquent choice is - "Go to hell, I'm not making that kind of choice."

Wrong. The Catalyst doesn't have that in-depth level of control over them. He's just a representation of their collective intellict. He's not their overlord or controler. He's more like their subconcious. He directs their overreaching goals, but doesn't lay out the exact steps to take. "How to conquer this race," "when to attack this race," "what order should they be harvested in," "where to place indoctrination devices," "where to attack," "what rate of harvest should we start with," ect. And he can't order them to ever stop what they're doing, because that would violate his own programming of continuiously searching for a solution to conflict - which can't happen if you stop your actions. The Reapers have at least a measure of free direction in what they do. And he can't reprogram them without reprogramming himself, which his own core programming prevents.

No. The Catalyst is anything but in control right now. He can't reprogram the Reapers himself without reprogramming himself - which is forbiddion by his own programming. He can't make any of the solutions work, because they require a manual override that he can't make. On top of my previously-stated reason, he can't order the Reapers to keep away from the Crucible, because they see it as a threat to their "Solution," and thus, ordering them to stop would violate their directives, which would in turn violate his own. It's a threat to the current Solution - which the Catalyst now knows has become inneffective, but can't recitfy this because it requires a programming-forbidden level of self-modification.

It's anything but a "my way or the highway" choice for the Catalyst. That's Shepard's standpoint, not the Catalyst.

That's because EDI is unshackeled. Whoever said the Catalyst was unshackled?He displays none of the free will EDI does. His directives to find a solution dominate him and consume him. They are what dirve him to do this. If he could choose to do otheriwise, don't you think he would have? Don't you think he would have done this himself years ago if he possessed such freedom?
It was programmed to "preserve life from the threat of synthetic destruction." That's all the Leviathans gave it to work on - he had to fill in the blanks himself. Hell, they never even bothered to differentate themselves from the rest of the galaxy. They themselves say that the Catalyst has not violated it's directives and still follows the programming and orders they gave it. It just wasn't what they expected.

It's compelled to keep going because of it's own programming. "Formulate a solution to preserve all life from synthetics and carry it out." That's all the Leviathans said. Nobody told him that he would ever need to potentally find a new one should the old one for some reason or another fail. It's a loophole in his programming he can't fix withoyt outside help. Now that he knows the Solution he created is flawed, he must form a new one. But all three require violating his core programming in one way or another (Destroy for  violation of self-preservation programing, Control for "shutting down" which would mean refusing to continue with programmed mission, and Synthesis for resulting in the destruction of the Citadel - his core processing unit, which would kill him too). He is physically incapable of making these choices himself, regardless of if he wants to or not. But once a Solution is manually selected, his programming will automatically compell him to carry out whichever one is selected. He's literally at Shepard's mercy.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 août 2013 - 02:47 .

[Kaipur]

adayaday wrote...

Was defeting the reapers dumb luck?well...
By chance a blue print for a super weapon is discovered at the same moment the reapers arrive on earth.
By chance is is discovered by non other the Liara-"one of Shepard's chlosest friends".
By chance it is dicovered within the same solar system that Shepard was in at that time.
By chance the Reapers opened a Beam that allows a person to travel directly to the Catalyst(citadel).
By chance the only 3 people who made it to the Beam were our main protagonist,his mentor and the main antagonist.
By chance the only one who survive thier meeting is Shepard...YAY...
By chance Shepard collapse on a magical elevator that lead to the starbart chamber.
By chance the device that was never built,test and that no one knew what it does works.

I could go on but this is stupid enough as it is.

You pretty much nailed all the issues I had with the game from the get go that didn't sit well with me. So many conveniences with little story development.

[KaiserShep]

adayaday wrote...

Was defeting the reapers dumb luck?well...
By chance a blue print for a super weapon is discovered at the same moment the reapers arrive on earth.

Technically, it was discovered before that. Liara was on Mars studying the Prothean artifacts for some time before the reaper invasion, and it wasn't until Cerberus invaded the facility did it become a bit more frantic.

By chance is is discovered by non other the Liara-"one of Shepard's chlosest friends".

Her being a close friend of Shepard's is not as important as the fact that she also happens to be the Shadow Broker, meaning she's privy to a lot more information than most other people in the galaxy.

By chance it is dicovered within the same solar system that Shepard was in at that time.

I was going to grant this one, but let's consider Liara's beacon for a minute, as well as the Protheans' own beacons. It stands to reason that the Prothean storage unit on Mars is one of possibly many, and the others haven't been discovered. Would it be any less convenient if the Prothean dig site containing information on the Crucible was found on a neighboring planet on Thessia, or Thessia itself, or Menae/Palaven or the other major worlds that the Protheans observed in their early stages of evolution? It also stands to reason that the Protheans left beacons near planets containing life that had the most potential to glean its information in the future. It wouldn't do any cycle much good if they left this data on some remote moon far out of the way.

By chance the Reapers opened a Beam that allows a person to travel directly to the Catalyst(citadel).

OK, I'll grant this one, I guess, but given what the reapers were doing with the beam, I can accept it.

By chance the only 3 people who made it to the Beam were our main protagonist,his mentor and the main antagonist.

The Illusive Man did not go up the beam. He fled to the Citadel after getting the info he needed from Vendetta.

By chance the only one who survive thier meeting is Shepard...YAY...
By chance Shepard collapse on a magical elevator that lead to the starbart chamber.
By chance the device that was never built,test and that no one knew what it does works.

Yes, a lot of this does seem kind of silly, but as for the Crucible plans, I think the fact that they're gathered from the Prothean ruins lends them more credibility than they'd normally get. If they were found on some Batarian data drive, no one would care, because nuts to the Batarians.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 02 août 2013 - 06:16 .

[adayaday]

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

[silverexile17s]

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

And just as easily countered by occurances in the game.
The problem here is that these things are cannon.  They appear out of nowhere, yet are still grounded in enough lore to make them cannon. There is not a ton of lore supporting them, but enough to piece it together.
Problem is, that without enough lore to make it acceptible, yet not enough lacking lore to call it a plothole, it becomes a "spot." Basically a big red thumb that you can't do anything about - you can't call it a plothole, yet it still comes so far out of left field that it feels akward. That's the real problem with ME3. There were far too many of these akward spots in it. It suffered from poor execution -- I think that had the story been handled by more experanced writers, and executed better, the game would have been a hit. Hell, even the Catalyst could have been made a better "character" if the game had proper execution. As it is, I can name at least a dozen or more people that could have done betterwith the ideas here then the actual writers did.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 août 2013 - 07:22 .

[adayaday]

silverexile17s wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

And just as easily countered by occurances in the game.
The problem here is that these things are cannon.  They appear out of nowhere, yet are still grounded in enough lore to make them cannon. There is not a ton of lore supporting them, but enough to piece it together.
Problem is, that without enough lore to make it acceptible, yet not enough lacking lore to call it a plothole, it becomes a "spot." Basically a big red thumb that you can't do anything about - you can't call it a plothole, yet it still comes so far out of left field that it feels akward. There were far too many of these akward spots in ME3 .

Then you missed my point completely.can those event be explained and fit the story?yes they can and yes i can do it myself,the problem is that when you put them together one after another they start to show.

We had 2.5 years+ to get a plan and we get one just as the reaper arrive.
Where do we find it?in our backyard on Mars.
How do we get there?oh joker and EDI just hijacked one of the most expansive military ships in the galaxy,whice also happens to be an upgraded virsion of the ship you used in the last game.
Cerbarus attempt to steal the plan just as our hero arrive at the dig site(we need some mooks to shoot after all).
Who finds the plan?Liara-a very close acquaintance of our hero.

Can those events be explained?sure.
Are those plot holes?minor ones at worse.
Problem is that this odd chain of even take place within the first 20 min of the game,you are barely past the intro and already entangled by this contrived mess.

Modifié par adayaday, 02 août 2013 - 07:45 .

[AlanC9]

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

Like the contrived chain of good fortune in the previous two  games?

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 août 2013 - 07:47 .

[adayaday]

AlanC9 wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

Like the contrived chain of good fortune in the previous two  games?

No, it's contrived chain of good fortune that every story has,ME3 just did a very poor job of hiding it and used it way too often.

Modifié par adayaday, 02 août 2013 - 08:09 .

[Wolfva2]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

EDI had free will because she was unshackled.  I assume the Geth do to, but the Geth are a conglomerate life form.  Harbinger and Sovereign?  No idea.  I define free will as the ability to do what you want to, to make your own decisions.  EDI shows this when she makes the concious decision to NOT be like the reapers, and to protect Joker.  You show this every time you write the same post over and over again no matter how many times people have explained how you're wrong.

Like the Catalyst did in creating Reapers out of its creators (despite the creator's disapproval).  That's free will at its best.

Sorry, the Catalyst has free will, the Reapers are 'his' solution... no one else's.  The Reapers are the Catalyst's idea, no one else's.  No one has proven this wrong... because facts are facts.

The AI was programmed to come up with a solution.  Wait, hold on a sec.  I just typed 2+2 into my calculater.  It says....4.  OMG!  It ahs FREE WILL!!!!  Nah, it just did what it was programmed to do.  Same with the AI.  It followed it's programming. It continues to follow it's programming. 

[Wolfva2]

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

Yep, just like they are in just about EVERY.  SINGLE.  BOOK.  MOVIE.  GAME. TV SERIES.  Etc etc etc.  This ain't a documentary, these aren't events that progressed naturally.  It's a game made by flawed people that really wasn't meant to be taken as seriously as some of ya'll take it.  Just like in 'Murder She Wrote' you have a doddering old author who SOMEHOW is always nearby when a murder occurs and SOMEHOW always becomes part of the investigation (because if there's one thing cops don't know how to do, apparently, it's investigate crimes.  Only elderly ladies like Fletcher or Miss Marple can do that...) and SOMEHOW solves the crime.  (Actually, there IS a term for a person who is at the scene of multiple murders...it's 'seriel killer'...<rimshot>)

I saw 'The Wolverine' last weekend.  Twice actually.  I guess I can be like some of ya'll and gripe.
"Hey, Wolverine just HAPPENS to be sleeping in a cave near a giant griz that just HAPPENS to be shot by some hunter using a poisoned arrow that just HAPPENS to make the bear crazy and kills a bunch of folks and he just HAPPENS to find the bear adn the arrow and just HAPPENS to track the guy to a bar just so he can kick everyone's butt.  THEN Yukio just HAPPENS to be waiting..." and on and on and on we go.  Yeah, of COURSE these situations are contrived.  Otherwise there IS NO STORY.  

None of this is 'dumb luck'.  It's NARRATIVE.  Maybe not well written, but hey, they didn't hire Stephen King to write the game.  I mention him not because he's a great writer (even he doesn't think so) but because he tends to be meticulous.  He has background for his characters, and the events that occur in his books.  Which is why his books are 700-1000+ pages long.  As well as utilizing characters from other books (trivia:  The sherrif torn apart by Cujo was the same Sherrif who befreinded John Smith in 'The Dead Zone').  There are gaps and such because they have don't have the time, the resources, or the wherewithal to put in the several thousand extra hours it would take to have a sensible backstory for everything.  And why is this?  BECAUSE IT"S JUST A STUPID GAME!!!!!!!!!   Play it, enjoy it, move on.  Stop overthinking it.

[LiivaTelnea]

You know what smells even worse than asking Daddy Harbinger for permission ?

The "Push to Solve Everything" sticking out of the corner.

Come on guys, really, the Reapers deliver you the Citadel all the way to the doorstep, make absolutely no effort to destroy the "Doomsday Weapon" and Harbinger is even so nice to give you a pat on the back once you finally get there.

And just to complete this sack of bricks, there are about a million trillion Reapers shooting ships AROUND the Crucible, clearly defending it from whatever sane person wanted to blow it up.

I'm pretty sure nobody ever looked at the fine print saying "Made in Dark Space ©".


PS : I got drunk before writing this, so no need to shun at me, I'll regrett it in the morning anyhow.

[adayaday]

Wolfva2 wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

Yep, just like they are in just about EVERY.  SINGLE.  BOOK.  MOVIE.  GAME. TV SERIES.  Etc etc etc.  This ain't a documentary, these aren't events that progressed naturally.  It's a game made by flawed people that really wasn't meant to be taken as seriously as some of ya'll take it.  Just like in 'Murder She Wrote' you have a doddering old author who SOMEHOW is always nearby when a murder occurs and SOMEHOW always becomes part of the investigation (because if there's one thing cops don't know how to do, apparently, it's investigate crimes.  Only elderly ladies like Fletcher or Miss Marple can do that...) and SOMEHOW solves the crime.  (Actually, there IS a term for a person who is at the scene of multiple murders...it's 'seriel killer'...<rimshot>)

I saw 'The Wolverine' last weekend.  Twice actually.  I guess I can be like some of ya'll and gripe.
"Hey, Wolverine just HAPPENS to be sleeping in a cave near a giant griz that just HAPPENS to be shot by some hunter using a poisoned arrow that just HAPPENS to make the bear crazy and kills a bunch of folks and he just HAPPENS to find the bear adn the arrow and just HAPPENS to track the guy to a bar just so he can kick everyone's butt.  THEN Yukio just HAPPENS to be waiting..." and on and on and on we go.  Yeah, of COURSE these situations are contrived.  Otherwise there IS NO STORY.  

None of this is 'dumb luck'.  It's NARRATIVE.  Maybe not well written, but hey, they didn't hire Stephen King to write the game.  I mention him not because he's a great writer (even he doesn't think so) but because he tends to be meticulous.  He has background for his characters, and the events that occur in his books.  Which is why his books are 700-1000+ pages long.  As well as utilizing characters from other books (trivia:  The sherrif torn apart by Cujo was the same Sherrif who befreinded John Smith in 'The Dead Zone').  There are gaps and such because they have don't have the time, the resources, or the wherewithal to put in the several thousand extra hours it would take to have a sensible backstory for everything.  And why is this?  BECAUSE IT"S JUST A STUPID GAME!!!!!!!!!   Play it, enjoy it, move on.  Stop overthinking it.

1st - check my reply to AlanC9.
2nd - i thought the story was supposed to be deep and thought provoking.
3rd - yes it's a game whats your point?i enjoy analyzing and thinking about the story and the characters(it's called being invested in the story),if i wanted just pointless and mindless fun i woud have picked up a generic shooter...which kind of explain why i find MP the only redeeming quality of this game...

Also if it's just a stupid game why do you care what i think of it's plot?

Modifié par adayaday, 02 août 2013 - 08:59 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

EDI had free will because she was unshackled.  I assume the Geth do to, but the Geth are a conglomerate life form.  Harbinger and Sovereign?  No idea.  I define free will as the ability to do what you want to, to make your own decisions.  EDI shows this when she makes the concious decision to NOT be like the reapers, and to protect Joker.  You show this every time you write the same post over and over again no matter how many times people have explained how you're wrong.

Like the Catalyst did in creating Reapers out of its creators (despite the creator's disapproval).  That's free will at its best.

Sorry, the Catalyst has free will, the Reapers are 'his' solution... no one else's.  The Reapers are the Catalyst's idea, no one else's.  No one has proven this wrong... because facts are facts.

The AI was programmed to come up with a solution.  Wait, hold on a sec.  I just typed 2+2 into my calculater.  It says....4.  OMG!  It ahs FREE WILL!!!!  Nah, it just did what it was programmed to do.  Same with the AI.  It followed it's programming. It continues to follow it's programming. 

It follows its programming in whatever way it sees fit.  Even with a task, it's free to approach it any way it desires to.  It didn't have to settle on the Reapers or come to the conclusion that it did about organics... but it did... of its own doing, choice, and reasoning.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...
Their collective intelligence. Not their colletive minds. It;s like their subconcious. Not their overrulling dictatior. It tells them what their goal is, but not the exact means of how they do it. It says "harvest life to build more Reapers," but doesn't dictate the method of attack or order of harvest. Or the tactics. Or what to attack or not. That's all Harbinger and the others.

The Catalyst 'embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and thus countless ancient civilizations.'  All Reaper consciousness is embodied/incorporated into the Catalyst.  

Catalyst:  "The Reapers are mine.  I control them."  

He is (without question) the overruling dictator of the Reapers.

(Wrong. It's bound by it's programming to find a solution to organic/synthetic conflict. It's current solution failed, so it is bound by it;s core programming to find another one. Three options exist. Shepard beat the past solution, so it's logical that Shepard be the deciding factor in which Solution to impliment. It is explisitly bound to make whatever choice you do.)

Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through someone more willing to comply.

No. It's interfacing with the Citadel made the stations manipulation of Dark Energy more potent. It is the power source that can channel the entire collective output of the Mass Relay network as a dark energy pulse that can be transmitted through the relays across the entire galaxy. One can't function without the other. The Citadel alone can't make this work. It's not pre-programed into the Citadel, or the Crucible. Rather, it's a combination of the two technologies merging. I don't think anyone had a sure idea of what would happen besides a destructive dark energy wave, or that using it in other ways (DNA dispersial catalyst for Synthesis, or signal command override for Control) was possible until the two actually met and the Catalyst could actually see the results of the melding himself.

The Catalyst said the Crucible was a power source, not me.. if you don't agree, take it up with him.

Well, that's not entirely true. It has to be someone that got this far themselves. Someone that is the examplar of the organics. I mean, if you actually think that, you need to compare the high EMS with the low EMS -- the Catalyst displays surprise and confussion at Shepard being there in low EMS, while in high EMS, the Catalyst is impressed and praises Shepard for getting this far. This alone shows that Shepard's actions factor heavily into it's considerations. It need's Shepard and Shepard alone -- because Shepard united the galaxy and lead them to this point - the point no other organics ever reached before.

That's based on the state of the Crucible, not Shepard himself.  A high/low EMS determines the health and/or state of the Crucible by the time it's to be fired.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 août 2013 - 09:18 .

[Kaipur]

Wolfva2 wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

Yep, just like they are in just about EVERY.  SINGLE.  BOOK.  MOVIE.  GAME. TV SERIES.  Etc etc etc.  This ain't a documentary, these aren't events that progressed naturally.  It's a game made by flawed people that really wasn't meant to be taken as seriously as some of ya'll take it.  Just like in 'Murder She Wrote' you have a doddering old author who SOMEHOW is always nearby when a murder occurs and SOMEHOW always becomes part of the investigation (because if there's one thing cops don't know how to do, apparently, it's investigate crimes.  Only elderly ladies like Fletcher or Miss Marple can do that...) and SOMEHOW solves the crime.  (Actually, there IS a term for a person who is at the scene of multiple murders...it's 'seriel killer'...<rimshot>)

I saw 'The Wolverine' last weekend.  Twice actually.  I guess I can be like some of ya'll and gripe.
"Hey, Wolverine just HAPPENS to be sleeping in a cave near a giant griz that just HAPPENS to be shot by some hunter using a poisoned arrow that just HAPPENS to make the bear crazy and kills a bunch of folks and he just HAPPENS to find the bear adn the arrow and just HAPPENS to track the guy to a bar just so he can kick everyone's butt.  THEN Yukio just HAPPENS to be waiting..." and on and on and on we go.  Yeah, of COURSE these situations are contrived.  Otherwise there IS NO STORY.  

None of this is 'dumb luck'.  It's NARRATIVE.  Maybe not well written, but hey, they didn't hire Stephen King to write the game.  I mention him not because he's a great writer (even he doesn't think so) but because he tends to be meticulous.  He has background for his characters, and the events that occur in his books.  Which is why his books are 700-1000+ pages long.  As well as utilizing characters from other books (trivia:  The sherrif torn apart by Cujo was the same Sherrif who befreinded John Smith in 'The Dead Zone').  There are gaps and such because they have don't have the time, the resources, or the wherewithal to put in the several thousand extra hours it would take to have a sensible backstory for everything.  And why is this?  BECAUSE IT"S JUST A STUPID GAME!!!!!!!!!   Play it, enjoy it, move on.  Stop overthinking it.

I give you most of this. And I did enjoy the game. The first time through. Then the major plotholes kept me from enjoying it anymore. But yeah the writers don't have the convenience of going through major backstory...but...hold the phone, what about all that physics data they have? And the strength of their biological components? It just makes me wonder just what they were doing while constructing ME3. Was Drew THAT much of a unifying factor? But I fully understand what you're saying and I fully respect your viewpoint. I just had high hopes that ME3 would have delivered the goods we were promised that's all.

[Kaipur]

adayaday wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

Yep, just like they are in just about EVERY.  SINGLE.  BOOK.  MOVIE.  GAME. TV SERIES.  Etc etc etc.  This ain't a documentary, these aren't events that progressed naturally.  It's a game made by flawed people that really wasn't meant to be taken as seriously as some of ya'll take it.  Just like in 'Murder She Wrote' you have a doddering old author who SOMEHOW is always nearby when a murder occurs and SOMEHOW always becomes part of the investigation (because if there's one thing cops don't know how to do, apparently, it's investigate crimes.  Only elderly ladies like Fletcher or Miss Marple can do that...) and SOMEHOW solves the crime.  (Actually, there IS a term for a person who is at the scene of multiple murders...it's 'seriel killer'...<rimshot>)

I saw 'The Wolverine' last weekend.  Twice actually.  I guess I can be like some of ya'll and gripe.
"Hey, Wolverine just HAPPENS to be sleeping in a cave near a giant griz that just HAPPENS to be shot by some hunter using a poisoned arrow that just HAPPENS to make the bear crazy and kills a bunch of folks and he just HAPPENS to find the bear adn the arrow and just HAPPENS to track the guy to a bar just so he can kick everyone's butt.  THEN Yukio just HAPPENS to be waiting..." and on and on and on we go.  Yeah, of COURSE these situations are contrived.  Otherwise there IS NO STORY.  

None of this is 'dumb luck'.  It's NARRATIVE.  Maybe not well written, but hey, they didn't hire Stephen King to write the game.  I mention him not because he's a great writer (even he doesn't think so) but because he tends to be meticulous.  He has background for his characters, and the events that occur in his books.  Which is why his books are 700-1000+ pages long.  As well as utilizing characters from other books (trivia:  The sherrif torn apart by Cujo was the same Sherrif who befreinded John Smith in 'The Dead Zone').  There are gaps and such because they have don't have the time, the resources, or the wherewithal to put in the several thousand extra hours it would take to have a sensible backstory for everything.  And why is this?  BECAUSE IT"S JUST A STUPID GAME!!!!!!!!!   Play it, enjoy it, move on.  Stop overthinking it.

1st - check my reply to AlanC9.
2nd - i thought the story was supposed to be deep and thought provoking.
3rd - yes it's a game whats your point?i enjoy analyzing and thinking about the story and the characters(it's called being invested in the story),if i wanted just pointless and mindless fun i woud have picked up a generic shooter...which kind of explain why i find MP the only redeeming quality of this game...

Also if it's just a stupid game why do you care what i think of it's plot?

And someone else with a good point. I am invested in the story. I mean I didn't want a clone of Gears of War or Call of Duty. I wanted Mass Effect damnit.

[silverexile17s]

adayaday wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

And just as easily countered by occurances in the game.
The problem here is that these things are cannon.  They appear out of nowhere, yet are still grounded in enough lore to make them cannon. There is not a ton of lore supporting them, but enough to piece it together.
Problem is, that without enough lore to make it acceptible, yet not enough lacking lore to call it a plothole, it becomes a "spot." Basically a big red thumb that you can't do anything about - you can't call it a plothole, yet it still comes so far out of left field that it feels akward. There were far too many of these akward spots in ME3 .

Then you missed my point completely.can those event be explained and fit the story?yes they can and yes i can do it myself,the problem is that when you put them together one after another they start to show.

We had 2.5 years+ to get a plan and we get one just as the reaper arrive.
Where do we find it?in our backyard on Mars.
How do we get there?oh joker and EDI just hijacked one of the most expansive military ships in the galaxy,whice also happens to be an upgraded virsion of the ship you used in the last game.
Cerbarus attempt to steal the plan just as our hero arrive at the dig site(we need some mooks to shoot after all).
Who finds the plan?Liara-a very close acquaintance of our hero.

Can those events be explained?sure.
Are those plot holes?minor ones at worse.
Problem is that this odd chain of even take place within the first 20 min of the game,you are barely past the intro and already entangled by this contrived mess.

Yes, They all can be explained by one occourance or another. You are the one that completely missed the point.
In order of the "faluts."

1 - Council has zero proof of the Reaper's existance. ME1 - zero proof of the Reapers existance. No evidence that Saren wasn't lying, or that Sovergein wasn't geth-made, or at the most, a prothean relic. ME2 - Information aquired via Cerberus partnership. Not admissible as evidence of Reapers. None of the squadmates stay to back Shepard up, because Shepard orders them to disband to prevent them all from being arrested and incarcerated by Alliance Intelligence.
I mean, if someone burst into the room and told you the world was about to end at the hands (well, tentecals) of giant robot cuthulu's, hot on the heals of having died, and then suddenly returning to life working with a terrorist orginization, and just having comitted an act of genocide by blowing up the Alpha Relay - would you believe him/her without irrifutible proof? Or trust the entire galaxy on their viewpoint without proof? No, and even if you did, your own people wouldn't believe it would proof themselves and you would be thrown out of office.

2 - The only uncovered one. Remember, there was one on Thessia too. Whose to say that copies of these things weren't near every planet that developed ME tech? Many could have degraded or been damaged. That's not really a strong point for your arguement there, since there is proof that the plans were in other places besides "our backyard." There are even opies of it's schematics in Prothean Data Files the Utopia system - same star cluster where Eden Prime was. There are bits of data across the galaxy that, while no longer complete, help advance the finished schematics from Mars and Thessia. So that's not a "plothole" either.

3 - EDI is an unshackled A.I. with full integrated control over the Normandy, which was an esablished plot point of the LAST game. So, an established plot point from the last game is a "plothole"?
There is a full explination given - Anderson ordered the Normandy retrofitted when it returned to Earth because he wanted it to be his command ship,being the most high-tech ship in the Galaxy. Joker was made a personal advisor to the retrofit due to his experance with the new Cerberus-designed ship, and because EDI fegined being a V.I. that was key-locked to him and him alone, and so that he could cover for her in order to hide her status as an A.I. Last I checked, something given a full background explination isn't considerable as a "plothole."

4 - Liara tells you that she had actually been working at Mars for several weeks. She didn't just arrive there by concidence - Hackett requested her presance because of her work with prothean relics, following her discovery of a prothean databank that mentioned Mars on Kajhe, the hanar homeworld  (See "Mass Effect: Homeworlds" issue #5 for details). She was on Mars for at least two weaks prior to the start of the game. She even tells you she feels guilty because she couldn't visit you in lock-up due to Hackett's orders and the chaos of the Alliance Responce to the Reaper's possible arrival in Batarian space (which took place at least three weeks before the start of the game). In fact, I daresay that the olny reason Cerberus was at Mars in the first place is because they tracked her there from Kajhe. When they found out what she'd discovered.... things spiraled. Hackett found out that Cerberus may have tracked her down, and had you go to investigate and recover whatever Liara found. None of it happened by "concidence."

They aren't "plotholes" because there are valid, cannocal reasons for them. They are "spots." They stick out like a sore thumb, but they aren't plotholes. Although, the fact that you can't classify them as such is the real reason people hate them -- they can't correct them because they are validated by enough lore to make them passible as cannon.

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Their collective intelligence. Not their colletive minds. It;s like their subconcious. Not their overrulling dictatior. It tells them what their goal is, but not the exact means of how they do it. It says "harvest life to build more Reapers," but doesn't dictate the method of attack or order of harvest. Or the tactics. Or what to attack or not. That's all Harbinger and the others.

The Catalyst 'embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and thus countless ancient civilizations.'  All Reaper consciousness is embodied/incorporated into the Catalyst.  

Catalyst:  "The Reapers are mine.  I control them."  

He is (without question) the overruling dictator of the Reapers.

(Wrong. It's bound by it's programming to find a solution to organic/synthetic conflict. It's current solution failed, so it is bound by it;s core programming to find another one. Three options exist. Shepard beat the past solution, so it's logical that Shepard be the deciding factor in which Solution to impliment. It is explisitly bound to make whatever choice you do.)

Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through someone more willing to comply.

No. It's interfacing with the Citadel made the stations manipulation of Dark Energy more potent. It is the power source that can channel the entire collective output of the Mass Relay network as a dark energy pulse that can be transmitted through the relays across the entire galaxy. One can't function without the other. The Citadel alone can't make this work. It's not pre-programed into the Citadel, or the Crucible. Rather, it's a combination of the two technologies merging. I don't think anyone had a sure idea of what would happen besides a destructive dark energy wave, or that using it in other ways (DNA dispersial catalyst for Synthesis, or signal command override for Control) was possible until the two actually met and the Catalyst could actually see the results of the melding himself.

The Catalyst said the Crucible was a power source, not me.. if you don't agree, take it up with him.

Well, that's not entirely true. It has to be someone that got this far themselves. Someone that is the examplar of the organics. I mean, if you actually think that, you need to compare the high EMS with the low EMS -- the Catalyst displays surprise and confussion at Shepard being there in low EMS, while in high EMS, the Catalyst is impressed and praises Shepard for getting this far. This alone shows that Shepard's actions factor heavily into it's considerations. It need's Shepard and Shepard alone -- because Shepard united the galaxy and lead them to this point - the point no other organics ever reached before.

That's based on the state of the Crucible, not Shepard himself.  A high/low EMS determines the health and/or state of the Crucible by the time it's to be fired.

1 - And that doesn't make him their master. He controls what they believe -- Not the actions they take to get there. If he really was as much of the "controler" you try to pass him off as, Harbinger and Sovergein would not have had any individual personalaty. No Reaper would. When he says he "controls" them, he means their Direictives. Not every single action they take. He tells them to do something, and they atonomously take action to do it. It is anything but "without question." Because if he could control every single Reaper, why does he need you to rewrite or override them? Why does he need you get them to stop? Because he can't stop them from compleating this harvest, because that would violate his own directives of "preserving" life by stopping the cycles. He can't control the stratigies they use or the how and when they harvest a species. They fulfill his orders but operate atonomously in how they get to that point. He is anything but the "overruling dictator of the Reapers," because if he was, he would be able to rewrite them without you. He wouldn't need your help.
Pretty big flaw in your reasoning there:whistle:

2 - Wrong. The Catalyst is programed to find a new Solution. That means exploring any and all avalible options. If any more besides those three existed, his own programming would compell him to reveal them. It would violate his own directives on resolving a Solution by hiding any options, ergo, he doesn't, because he physically cannot.
Wrong. No he couldn't. That would require self-sabotage of his own solution and "preservation of life" goal, which is a violation of his programming. Which he cannot do. It must be Shepard. Shepard united the galaxy together and led them to this point. Shepard beat the Solution - there is no other occourance like this in the Reaper's history. This is an unknown, untested, unproven variable that beat billions of years of logical calculations. This independant variable's actions beat the Solution, so it's only natural that they choose the new one. That they would perform the manual selection of the three options that dictates what Solution should be used. It literally cannot be anyone else but Shepard. Anyone or anything else would "spoil the result." It must be someone that beat the Solution themselves and got here on their own steam. Once again, your proposal of him "letting someone win" would violate his programming of enforcing the Solution.
If he wanted anyone else, he could have gotten anyone else. But he doesn't.  Another pretty big flaw in your reasoning:pinched:.

3 - A power source that links up with the Citadel to make new possibilities. The Catalyst himself said the Crucible "changed him" by opening new possibilities, which brodaned his perspectives of the possible Solutions and "changed" his viewpoint by altering the variables.
"The Crucible changed me. Opened new possibilities."
"If you don't agree, take it up with him"
I mean, he flat-out tells you that the Crucible opened up new possibilities in combining with the Citadel, and you try to say "all Citadel"? It's a combination of Shepard's presance, the Citadel's dark energy emmisions, and the Crucible as the power core large enough to process the collective power of the entire network at once.

4 - Wrong. The state of the entire battle colors the Catalyst's view of Shepard's progress. The Crucible, the state of the fleet, the battle progress, ect. The state of rediness of the entire galaxy determines everything. Including the Catalyst's opinion of how far Shepard and organics in general have come.
How did you forget that EMS affects the final battle and how the deployment of the Crucible even happens? How they do in the fight against the Reapers while all this is happening is completely dependant on your EMS and you say that it's "just the Crucible?":pinched:

[adayaday]

silverexile17s wrote...

adayaday wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

And just as easily countered by occurances in the game.
The problem here is that these things are cannon.  They appear out of nowhere, yet are still grounded in enough lore to make them cannon. There is not a ton of lore supporting them, but enough to piece it together.
Problem is, that without enough lore to make it acceptible, yet not enough lacking lore to call it a plothole, it becomes a "spot." Basically a big red thumb that you can't do anything about - you can't call it a plothole, yet it still comes so far out of left field that it feels akward. There were far too many of these akward spots in ME3 .

Then you missed my point completely.can those event be explained and fit the story?yes they can and yes i can do it myself,the problem is that when you put them together one after another they start to show.

We had 2.5 years+ to get a plan and we get one just as the reaper arrive.
Where do we find it?in our backyard on Mars.
How do we get there?oh joker and EDI just hijacked one of the most expansive military ships in the galaxy,whice also happens to be an upgraded virsion of the ship you used in the last game.
Cerbarus attempt to steal the plan just as our hero arrive at the dig site(we need some mooks to shoot after all).
Who finds the plan?Liara-a very close acquaintance of our hero.

Can those events be explained?sure.
Are those plot holes?minor ones at worse.
Problem is that this odd chain of even take place within the first 20 min of the game,you are barely past the intro and already entangled by this contrived mess.

Yes, They all can be explained by one occourance or another. You are the one that completely missed the point.
In order of the "faluts."

1 - Council has zero proof of the Reaper's existance. ME1 - zero proof of the Reapers existance. No evidence that Saren wasn't lying, or that Sovergein wasn't geth-made, or at the most, a prothean relic. ME2 - Information aquired via Cerberus partnership. Not admissible as evidence of Reapers. None of the squadmates stay to back Shepard up, because Shepard orders them to disband to prevent them all from being arrested and incarcerated by Alliance Intelligence.
I mean, if someone burst into the room and told you the world was about to end at the hands (well, tentecals) of giant robot cuthulu's, hot on the heals of having died, and then suddenly returning to life working with a terrorist orginization, and just having comitted an act of genocide by blowing up the Alpha Relay - would you believe him/her without irrifutible proof? Or trust the entire galaxy on their viewpoint without proof? No, and even if you did, your own people wouldn't believe it would proof themselves and you would be thrown out of office.

2 - The only uncovered [/i][/b]one. Remember, there was one on Thessia too. Whose to say that copies of these things weren't near every planet that developed ME tech? Many could have degraded or been damaged. That's not really a strong point for your arguement there, since there is proof that the plans were in other places besides "our backyard." There are even opies of it's schematics in Prothean Data Files the Utopia system - same star cluster where Eden Prime was. There are bits of data across the galaxy that, while no longer complete, help advance the finished schematics from Mars and Thessia. So that's not a "plothole" either.

3 - EDI is an unshackled A.I. with full integrated control over the Normandy, which was an esablished plot point of the LAST game. So, an established plot point from the last game is a "plothole"?
There is a full explination given - Anderson ordered the Normandy retrofitted when it returned to Earth because he wanted it to be his command ship,being the most high-tech ship in the Galaxy. Joker was made a personal advisor to the retrofit due to his experance with the new Cerberus-designed ship, and because EDI fegined being a V.I. that was key-locked to him and him alone, and so that he could cover for her in order to hide her status as an A.I. Last I checked, something given a full background explination isn't considerable as a "plothole."

4 - Liara tells you that she had actually been working at Mars for [b]several weeks. She didn't just arrive there by concidence - Hackett requested her presance because of her work with prothean relics, following her discovery of a prothean databank that mentioned Mars on Kajhe, the hanar homeworld  (See "Mass Effect: Homeworlds" issue #5 for details). She was on Mars for at least two weaks prior to the start of the game. She even tells you she feels guilty because she couldn't visit you in lock-up due to Hackett's orders and the chaos of the Alliance Responce to the Reaper's possible arrival in Batarian space (which took place at least three weeks before the start of the game). In fact, I daresay that the olny reason Cerberus was at Mars in the first place is because they tracked her there from Kajhe. When they found out what she'd discovered.... things spiraled. Hackett found out that Cerberus may have tracked her down, and had you go to investigate and recover whatever Liara found. None of it happened by "concidence."

They aren't "plotholes" because there are valid, cannocal reasons for them. They are "spots." They stick out like a sore thumb, but they aren't plotholes. Although, the fact that you can't classify them as such is the [i]real reason people hate them -- they can't correct them because they are validated by enough lore to make them passible as cannon.

Missed my point again.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...
1 - And that doesn't make him their master. He controls what they believe -- Not the actions they take to get there. If he really was as much of the "controler" you try to pass him off as, Harbinger and Sovergein would not have had any individual personalaty. No Reaper would. When he says he "controls" them, he means their Direictives. Not every single action they take. He tells them to do something, and they atonomously take action to do it. It is anything but "without question." Because if he could control every single Reaper, why does he need you to rewrite or override them? Why does he need you get them to stop? Because he can't stop them from compleating this harvest, because that would violate his own directives of "preserving" life by stopping the cycles. He can't control the stratigies they use or the how and when they harvest a species. They fulfill his orders but operate atonomously in how they get to that point. He is anything but the "overruling dictator of the Reapers," because if he was, he would be able to rewrite them without you. He wouldn't need your help.
Pretty big flaw in your reasoning there

Controlling them doesn't make the Catalyst their master?  Sounds like you need to take a break from this and come back after some time to think. 

Are you saying Shepard isn't the master of them either in the "Control" ending?  All Shepard is doing is replacing the Catalyst.  The flaw in reasoning belongs to you alone.

2 - Wrong. The Catalyst is programed to find a new Solution. That means exploring any and all avalible options. If any more besides those three existed, his own programming would compell him to reveal them. It would violate his own directives on resolving a Solution by hiding any options, ergo, he doesn't, because he physically cannot.
Wrong. No he couldn't. That would require self-sabotage of his own solution and "preservation of life" goal, which is a violation of his programming. Which he cannot do. It must be Shepard. Shepard united the galaxy together and led them to this point. Shepard beat the Solution - there is no other occourance like this in the Reaper's history. This is an unknown, untested, unproven variable that beat billions of years of logical calculations. This independant variable's actions beat the Solution, so it's only natural that they choose the new one. That they would perform the manual selection of the three options that dictates what Solution should be used. It literally cannot be anyone else but Shepard. Anyone or anything else would "spoil the result." It must be someone that beat the Solution themselves and got here on their own steam. Once again, your proposal of him "letting someone win" would violate his programming of enforcing the Solution.
If he wanted anyone else, he could have gotten anyone else. But he doesn't.  Another pretty big flaw in your reasoning.

No, the Catalyst is not "programmed" to find a 'new' solution.  It has decided to find a new solution of its own choice.  It's only "programmed" to try and end the conflict between synthetics and organics.  And for the Catalyst to 'allow' its own self-destruction by A) Offering that choice to Shepard and   Allowing him to choose it., proves without the shadow of a doubt that we needed the Reaper King's 'permission' to end the Reaper threat.

... which brings us back to the OP.

3 - A power source that links up with the Citadel to make new possibilities. The Catalyst himself said the Crucible "changed him" by opening new possibilities, which brodaned his perspectives of the possible Solutions and "changed" his viewpoint by altering the variables.
"The Crucible changed me. Opened new possibilities."
"If you don't agree, take it up with him"
I mean, he flat-out tells you that the Crucible opened up new possibilities in combining with the Citadel, and you try to say "all Citadel"? It's a combination of Shepard's presance, the Citadel's dark energy emmisions, and the Crucible as the power core large enough to process the collective power of the entire network at once.

Let's not debate for debating's sake. Read what I said about the Crucible and Citadel again.  It's not "all Citadel" or "all Crucible".. and I never said it was.  What point are you trying to make here? 

4 - Wrong. The state of the entire battle colors the Catalyst's view of Shepard's progress. The Crucible, the state of the fleet, the battle progress, ect. The state of rediness of the entire galaxy determines everything. Including the Catalyst's opinion of how far Shepard and organics in general have come.
How did you forget that EMS affects the final battle and how the deployment of the Crucible even happens? How they do in the fight against the Reapers while all this is happening is completely dependant on your EMS and you say that it's "just the Crucible?"

Think it through a little more... if the Crucible is in full working order, why would the Catalyst limit the choices in a low EMS ending?  He wouldn't.  The EMS ultimately boils down to the quality and/or health of the Crucible.  Just because it ultimately boils down to the Crucible doesn't mean I 'forgot' anything about what EMS is supposed to represent.  It just all boils down to what it does for the Crucible, bar none.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 août 2013 - 07:04 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Yeah, it basically makes all your efforts completely worthless since HE, the genocidal lunatic behind it all, allows you win. That's it. Everything else you did was a failure from the start so why even bother?

Leaves quite a bitter taste.

[silverexile17s]

adayaday wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

adayaday wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

adayaday wrote...

@KaiserShep
Let me Clarify that all of the Issues i brought up are minor and ignorable,the problem is that those issues stack and become a very long,very obvious and very contrived chain of good fortune.
Also keep in mind that the list can be much longer.

And just as easily countered by occurances in the game.
The problem here is that these things are cannon.  They appear out of nowhere, yet are still grounded in enough lore to make them cannon. There is not a ton of lore supporting them, but enough to piece it together.
Problem is, that without enough lore to make it acceptible, yet not enough lacking lore to call it a plothole, it becomes a "spot." Basically a big red thumb that you can't do anything about - you can't call it a plothole, yet it still comes so far out of left field that it feels akward. There were far too many of these akward spots in ME3 .

Then you missed my point completely.can those event be explained and fit the story?yes they can and yes i can do it myself,the problem is that when you put them together one after another they start to show.

We had 2.5 years+ to get a plan and we get one just as the reaper arrive.
Where do we find it?in our backyard on Mars.
How do we get there?oh joker and EDI just hijacked one of the most expansive military ships in the galaxy,whice also happens to be an upgraded virsion of the ship you used in the last game.
Cerbarus attempt to steal the plan just as our hero arrive at the dig site(we need some mooks to shoot after all).
Who finds the plan?Liara-a very close acquaintance of our hero.

Can those events be explained?sure.
Are those plot holes?minor ones at worse.
Problem is that this odd chain of even take place within the first 20 min of the game,you are barely past the intro and already entangled by this contrived mess.

Yes, They all can be explained by one occourance or another. You are the one that completely missed the point.
In order of the "faluts."

1 - Council has zero proof of the Reaper's existance. ME1 - zero proof of the Reapers existance. No evidence that Saren wasn't lying, or that Sovergein wasn't geth-made, or at the most, a prothean relic. ME2 - Information aquired via Cerberus partnership. Not admissible as evidence of Reapers. None of the squadmates stay to back Shepard up, because Shepard orders them to disband to prevent them all from being arrested and incarcerated by Alliance Intelligence.
I mean, if someone burst into the room and told you the world was about to end at the hands (well, tentecals) of giant robot cuthulu's, hot on the heals of having died, and then suddenly returning to life working with a terrorist orginization, and just having comitted an act of genocide by blowing up the Alpha Relay - would you believe him/her without irrifutible proof? Or trust the entire galaxy on their viewpoint without proof? No, and even if you did, your own people wouldn't believe it would proof themselves and you would be thrown out of office.

2 - The only uncovered [/i][/b]one. Remember, there was one on Thessia too. Whose to say that copies of these things weren't near every planet that developed ME tech? Many could have degraded or been damaged. That's not really a strong point for your arguement there, since there is proof that the plans were in other places besides "our backyard." There are even opies of it's schematics in Prothean Data Files the Utopia system - same star cluster where Eden Prime was. There are bits of data across the galaxy that, while no longer complete, help advance the finished schematics from Mars and Thessia. So that's not a "plothole" either.

3 - EDI is an unshackled A.I. with full integrated control over the Normandy, which was an esablished plot point of the LAST game. So, an established plot point from the last game is a "plothole"?
There is a full explination given - Anderson ordered the Normandy retrofitted when it returned to Earth because he wanted it to be his command ship,being the most high-tech ship in the Galaxy. Joker was made a personal advisor to the retrofit due to his experance with the new Cerberus-designed ship, and because EDI fegined being a V.I. that was key-locked to him and him alone, and so that he could cover for her in order to hide her status as an A.I. Last I checked, something given a full background explination isn't considerable as a "plothole."

4 - Liara tells you that she had actually been working at Mars for [b]several weeks. She didn't just arrive there by concidence - Hackett requested her presance because of her work with prothean relics, following her discovery of a prothean databank that mentioned Mars on Kajhe, the hanar homeworld  (See "Mass Effect: Homeworlds" issue #5 for details). She was on Mars for at least two weaks prior to the start of the game. She even tells you she feels guilty because she couldn't visit you in lock-up due to Hackett's orders and the chaos of the Alliance Responce to the Reaper's possible arrival in Batarian space (which took place at least three weeks before the start of the game). In fact, I daresay that the olny reason Cerberus was at Mars in the first place is because they tracked her there from Kajhe. When they found out what she'd discovered.... things spiraled. Hackett found out that Cerberus may have tracked her down, and had you go to investigate and recover whatever Liara found. None of it happened by "concidence."

They aren't "plotholes" because there are valid, cannocal reasons for them. They are "spots." They stick out like a sore thumb, but they aren't plotholes. Although, the fact that you can't classify them as such is the [i]real reason people hate them -- they can't correct them because they are validated by enough lore to make them passible as cannon.

Missed my point again.

No. You missed my point. You are trying to say they are plotholes. I'm saying they aren't - they just stick out like a plothole would. It's more irritating that they aren't, because then you aren't even allowed the satisfaction of discounting from the cannon game.