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[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
1 - And that doesn't make him their master. He controls what they believe -- Not the actions they take to get there. If he really was as much of the "controler" you try to pass him off as, Harbinger and Sovergein would not have had any individual personalaty. No Reaper would. When he says he "controls" them, he means their Direictives. Not every single action they take. He tells them to do something, and they atonomously take action to do it. It is anything but "without question." Because if he could control every single Reaper, why does he need you to rewrite or override them? Why does he need you get them to stop? Because he can't stop them from compleating this harvest, because that would violate his own directives of "preserving" life by stopping the cycles. He can't control the stratigies they use or the how and when they harvest a species. They fulfill his orders but operate atonomously in how they get to that point. He is anything but the "overruling dictator of the Reapers," because if he was, he would be able to rewrite them without you. He wouldn't need your help.
Pretty big flaw in your reasoning there

Controlling them doesn't make the Catalyst their master?  Sounds like you need to take a break from this and come back after some time to think. 

Are you saying Shepard isn't the master of them either in the "Control" ending?  All Shepard is doing is replacing the Catalyst.  The flaw in reasoning belongs to you alone.

2 - Wrong. The Catalyst is programed to find a new Solution. That means exploring any and all avalible options. If any more besides those three existed, his own programming would compell him to reveal them. It would violate his own directives on resolving a Solution by hiding any options, ergo, he doesn't, because he physically cannot.
Wrong. No he couldn't. That would require self-sabotage of his own solution and "preservation of life" goal, which is a violation of his programming. Which he cannot do. It must be Shepard. Shepard united the galaxy together and led them to this point. Shepard beat the Solution - there is no other occourance like this in the Reaper's history. This is an unknown, untested, unproven variable that beat billions of years of logical calculations. This independant variable's actions beat the Solution, so it's only natural that they choose the new one. That they would perform the manual selection of the three options that dictates what Solution should be used. It literally cannot be anyone else but Shepard. Anyone or anything else would "spoil the result." It must be someone that beat the Solution themselves and got here on their own steam. Once again, your proposal of him "letting someone win" would violate his programming of enforcing the Solution.
If he wanted anyone else, he could have gotten anyone else. But he doesn't.  Another pretty big flaw in your reasoning.

No, the Catalyst is not "programmed" to find a 'new' solution.  It has decided to find a new solution of its own choice.  It's only "programmed" to try and end the conflict between synthetics and organics.  And for the Catalyst to 'allow' its own self-destruction by A) Offering that choice to Shepard and   Allowing him to choose it., proves without the shadow of a doubt that we needed the Reaper King's 'permission' to end the Reaper threat.

... which brings us back to the OP.

3 - A power source that links up with the Citadel to make new possibilities. The Catalyst himself said the Crucible "changed him" by opening new possibilities, which brodaned his perspectives of the possible Solutions and "changed" his viewpoint by altering the variables.
"The Crucible changed me. Opened new possibilities."
"If you don't agree, take it up with him"
I mean, he flat-out tells you that the Crucible opened up new possibilities in combining with the Citadel, and you try to say "all Citadel"? It's a combination of Shepard's presance, the Citadel's dark energy emmisions, and the Crucible as the power core large enough to process the collective power of the entire network at once.

Let's not debate for debating's sake. Read what I said about the Crucible and Citadel again.  It's not "all Citadel" or "all Crucible".. and I never said it was.  What point are you trying to make here? 

4 - Wrong. The state of the entire battle colors the Catalyst's view of Shepard's progress. The Crucible, the state of the fleet, the battle progress, ect. The state of rediness of the entire galaxy determines everything. Including the Catalyst's opinion of how far Shepard and organics in general have come.
How did you forget that EMS affects the final battle and how the deployment of the Crucible even happens? How they do in the fight against the Reapers while all this is happening is completely dependant on your EMS and you say that it's "just the Crucible?"

Think it through a little more... if the Crucible is in full working order, why would the Catalyst limit the choices in a low EMS ending?  He wouldn't.  The EMS ultimately boils down to the quality and/or health of the Crucible.  Just because it ultimately boils down to the Crucible doesn't mean I 'forgot' anything about what EMS is supposed to represent.  It just all boils down to what it does for the Crucible, bar none.

1 - He doesn't control every single action. Just their overall objective. Tell me -- if you order someone to get you information, do you completely micromanage the time he does it, the steps he takes, or the methods he uses to get there? No -- he operates atonomously and gets the job done under his own abilaty and steam.
Same with the Catalyst -- he tells the Reapers what their objectives are, but doesn't micronamage every single step or move they make. He more like their subconcious -- controling their goals, but not their minds. Sounds like you need to actually read what's poasted, and look at the game, then come back after "some time to think.":bandit:
And in Control, the system is completely and utterly rewritten by the Shepard V.I. -- all user restrictions are now unlocked. Shepard V.I. does get the complete control of all Reapers, because the Crucible wipes the old syetem, and deletes the old Catalyst, and allows the new Shepard-Catalyst to rewrite the entire system as it sees fit. The Shepard-Catalyst in introduced to a completely blank system that can be rewritten and reprogrammed and reformated however it chooses.
"The flaw in reasoning belongs to you alone."  AGAIN.

2 - Yes, the Catalyst is programed to find a new solution. The Catalyst's directives are to find a solution to conflict. Now that the old one is proven flawed, a new one must be formed. The Crucible offers new options, but all of them conflict with the Catalyst's programming in one way or another. If he doesn't fix the Solution, it's a breach of his programming. If he allows the old solution to persist even though it's flawed, it's a breach of his programming. He literally cannot take action in this without Shepard's manual override. Shepard is the one holding the reigns here, not the Catalyst. The Catalyst has no choice in this. He is forced by his programming to fix the Solution, thus he is forced by his prgoramming to display any and all avalible options to fix the Solution with. He has zero abality to hide any option, because his own programming forbids it.
Which makes your "OP" complete and utter balls. Because of one simple thing -- if that was true, why isn't Synthesis an option in all possible outcomes? If he "can control the options presentes," why is Synthesis not present unless the Crucible is undamaged, and the EMS at max? Why not let the Crucible dock and not attack it if he planned this?:pinched:
Just face facts -- if he "planned" this and was "witholding" options from you, then Synthesis would be avalible in the medium EMS too with no other option. Hell, if you were right anyway, the Reapers wouldn't be attacking the Crucible. He has no use of deception now -- the cycle is flawed. Why protect a broken solution when you can make a new one? There's zero logic in your entire accusation.

3 - Likewise, re-read what I said about those two things. Because it's clear you're ignoring everything I said. You are trying to push that the ending options are the Catalyst's invention, even though the options are not anticipated results of the Crucible and Citadel merging -- otherwise, the Catalyst's viewpoints would not have been "changed."

4 - Because the thing is damaged in those versions. "think it through" yourself. In those endings, it's too damaged to accurately channel the Mass Relay Network's combined output, and thus, too unstable to use for more then one function. It all falls down to what part of the Human-Reaper you saved - the Heart (Destroy the base) or the Brain (Save the base). Otherwise, the Crucible is too unstable to use the energy in multiple variations. The Catalyst is not "limiting" the choices to low EMS -- it's because in Low EMS, the thing is to damaged to do much with it - the enengy output is too unstable. You explisitly did forget that.
In High EMS, he has zero reason to limit Anything - His own programming compels him to ensure all possible options for fixing the Solution are open and considered. He can't do it himself, so someone must do it for him. The unknown variable that bested the Solution is the logical and only choice for this - so in order to complete the Solution, his programming forbids him from holding anything back. The Crucible is only "restricted" in those past options because it get's damaged.
And I also remind you that your view is again false, because even in the high EMS, Synthesis does not activate unless EMS is at the max. So, in order to make sure you pick synthesis, he restricts it even if the Crucible is in full working order?:D. Riiiiight..... No. The Overall progress of the galaxy is what the Catalyst is monitoring.  The point being that -- if he was witholding all other options except the one he wanted you to pick, Synthesis would be at the forefront of the choice no matter what. He's not holding anything back .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

1 - He doesn't control every single action. Just their overall objective. Tell me -- if you order someone to get you information, do you completely micromanage the time he does it, the steps he takes, or the methods he uses to get there? No -- he operates atonomously and gets the job done under his own abilaty and steam.
Same with the Catalyst -- he tells the Reapers what their objectives are, but doesn't micronamage every single step or move they make. He more like their subconcious -- controling their goals, but not their minds. Sounds like you need to actually read what's poasted, and look at the game, then come back after "some time to think.":bandit:
And in Control, the system is completely and utterly rewritten by the Shepard V.I. -- all user restrictions are now unlocked. Shepard V.I. does get the complete control of all Reapers, because the Crucible wipes the old syetem, and deletes the old Catalyst, and allows the new Shepard-Catalyst to rewrite the entire system as it sees fit. The Shepard-Catalyst in introduced to a completely blank system that can be rewritten and reprogrammed and reformated however it chooses.
"The flaw in reasoning belongs to you alone."  AGAIN.

He can control every single action if he chooses to.  Shepard merely replaces the Catalyst (and the Catalyst makes the distinction quite clearly between 'controlling' and 'directing' the Reapers).  The Catalyst says he "controls" them.

If you disagree, take it up with the Catalyst.. that's his words, not mine.  The flaw in reasoning is again yours.

2 - Yes, the Catalyst is programed to find a new solution. The Catalyst's directives are to find a solution to conflict. Now that the old one is proven flawed, a new one must be formed. The Crucible offers new options, but all of them conflict with the Catalyst's programming in one way or another. If he doesn't fix the Solution, it's a breach of his programming. If he allows the old solution to persist even though it's flawed, it's a breach of his programming. He literally cannot take action in this without Shepard's manual override. Shepard is the one holding the reigns here, not the Catalyst. The Catalyst has no choice in this. He is forced by his programming to fix the Solution, thus he is forced by his prgoramming to display any and all avalible options to fix the Solution with. He has zero abality to hide any option, because his own programming forbids it.
Which makes your "OP" complete and utter balls. Because of one simple thing -- if that was true, why isn't Synthesis an option in all possible outcomes? If he "can control the options presentes," why is Synthesis not present unless the Crucible is undamaged, and the EMS at max? Why not let the Crucible dock and not attack it if he planned this?:pinched:
Just face facts -- if he "planned" this and was "witholding" options from you, then Synthesis would be avalible in the medium EMS too with no other option. Hell, if you were right anyway, the Reapers wouldn't be attacking the Crucible. He has no use of deception now -- the cycle is flawed. Why protect a broken solution when you can make a new one? There's zero logic in your entire accusation.

No, the Catalyst is not "programmed" to find a new solution.  He's programmed to find "a" solution.  The Catalyst can opt to stick with the old solution (cycles) if it decides to do so.  Alternatively, it can offer Shepard the ability to destroy it (and all of the Reapers)... which is not a 'solution' by the Catalyst's definition by any stretch of the imagination.  But the Catalyst is okay with that.

Catalyst:  "But the peace won't last."

The OP still stands strong.  You still cannot escape the fact that you need the Reaper King's permission to end the Reaper threat.  Bar none.  
Btw, my point was that the Catalyst wasn't withholding Crucible options from Shepard.  Glad you agree. 

3 - Likewise, re-read what I said about those two things. Because it's clear you're ignoring everything I said. You are trying to push that the ending options are the Catalyst's invention, even though the options are not anticipated results of the Crucible and Citadel merging -- otherwise, the Catalyst's viewpoints would not have been "changed."

4 - Because the thing is damaged in those versions. "think it through" yourself. In those endings, it's too damaged to accurately channel the Mass Relay Network's combined output, and thus, too unstable to use for more then one function. It all falls down to what part of the Human-Reaper you saved - the Heart (Destroy the base) or the Brain (Save the base). Otherwise, the Crucible is too unstable to use the energy in multiple variations. The Catalyst is not "limiting" the choices to low EMS -- it's because in Low EMS, the thing is to damaged to do much with it - the enengy output is too unstable. You explisitly did forget that.
In High EMS, he has zero reason to limit Anything - His own programming compels him to ensure all possible options for fixing the Solution are open and considered. He can't do it himself, so someone must do it for him. The unknown variable that bested the Solution is the logical and only choice for this - so in order to complete the Solution, his programming forbids him from holding anything back. The Crucible is only "restricted" in those past options because it get's damaged.
And I also remind you that your view is again false, because even in the high EMS, Synthesis does not activate unless EMS is at the max. So, in order to make sure you pick synthesis, he restricts it even if the Crucible is in full working order?:D. Riiiiight..... No. The Overall progress of the galaxy is what the Catalyst is monitoring.  The point being that -- if he was witholding all other options except the one he wanted you to pick, Synthesis would be at the forefront of the choice no matter what. He's not holding anything back .

The Catalyst could care less about the 'overall progress of the galaxy' as it already felt their peace "won't last" with the destroy ending.  It's only the state of the Crucible that makes any real difference.

Again, my point was that the Catalyst does not withhold Crucible options from you.  If the Crucible is capable, the option to use them are there.  My thanks again for your implicit agreement.

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1 - He doesn't control every single action. Just their overall objective. Tell me -- if you order someone to get you information, do you completely micromanage the time he does it, the steps he takes, or the methods he uses to get there? No -- he operates atonomously and gets the job done under his own abilaty and steam.
Same with the Catalyst -- he tells the Reapers what their objectives are, but doesn't micronamage every single step or move they make. He more like their subconcious -- controling their goals, but not their minds. Sounds like you need to actually read what's poasted, and look at the game, then come back after "some time to think.":bandit:
And in Control, the system is completely and utterly rewritten by the Shepard V.I. -- all user restrictions are now unlocked. Shepard V.I. does get the complete control of all Reapers, because the Crucible wipes the old syetem, and deletes the old Catalyst, and allows the new Shepard-Catalyst to rewrite the entire system as it sees fit. The Shepard-Catalyst in introduced to a completely blank system that can be rewritten and reprogrammed and reformated however it chooses.
"The flaw in reasoning belongs to you alone."  AGAIN.

He can control every single action if he chooses to.  Shepard merely replaces the Catalyst (and the Catalyst makes the distinction quite clearly between 'controlling' and 'directing' the Reapers).  The Catalyst says he "controls" them.

If you disagree, take it up with the Catalyst.. that's his words, not mine.  The flaw in reasoning is again yours.

2 - Yes, the Catalyst is programed to find a new solution. The Catalyst's directives are to find a solution to conflict. Now that the old one is proven flawed, a new one must be formed. The Crucible offers new options, but all of them conflict with the Catalyst's programming in one way or another. If he doesn't fix the Solution, it's a breach of his programming. If he allows the old solution to persist even though it's flawed, it's a breach of his programming. He literally cannot take action in this without Shepard's manual override. Shepard is the one holding the reigns here, not the Catalyst. The Catalyst has no choice in this. He is forced by his programming to fix the Solution, thus he is forced by his prgoramming to display any and all avalible options to fix the Solution with. He has zero abality to hide any option, because his own programming forbids it.
Which makes your "OP" complete and utter balls. Because of one simple thing -- if that was true, why isn't Synthesis an option in all possible outcomes? If he "can control the options presentes," why is Synthesis not present unless the Crucible is undamaged, and the EMS at max? Why not let the Crucible dock and not attack it if he planned this?:pinched:
Just face facts -- if he "planned" this and was "witholding" options from you, then Synthesis would be avalible in the medium EMS too with no other option. Hell, if you were right anyway, the Reapers wouldn't be attacking the Crucible. He has no use of deception now -- the cycle is flawed. Why protect a broken solution when you can make a new one? There's zero logic in your entire accusation.

No, the Catalyst is not "programmed" to find a new solution.  He's programmed to find "a" solution.  The Catalyst can opt to stick with the old solution (cycles) if it decides to do so.  Alternatively, it can offer Shepard the ability to destroy it (and all of the Reapers)... which is not a 'solution' by the Catalyst's definition by any stretch of the imagination.  But the Catalyst is okay with that.

Catalyst:  "But the peace won't last."

The OP still stands strong.  You still cannot escape the fact that you need the Reaper King's permission to end the Reaper threat.  Bar none.  
Btw, my point was that the Catalyst wasn't withholding Crucible options from Shepard.  Glad you agree. 

3 - Likewise, re-read what I said about those two things. Because it's clear you're ignoring everything I said. You are trying to push that the ending options are the Catalyst's invention, even though the options are not anticipated results of the Crucible and Citadel merging -- otherwise, the Catalyst's viewpoints would not have been "changed."

4 - Because the thing is damaged in those versions. "think it through" yourself. In those endings, it's too damaged to accurately channel the Mass Relay Network's combined output, and thus, too unstable to use for more then one function. It all falls down to what part of the Human-Reaper you saved - the Heart (Destroy the base) or the Brain (Save the base). Otherwise, the Crucible is too unstable to use the energy in multiple variations. [/b]The Catalyst is not "limiting" the choices to low EMS -- it's because in Low EMS, the thing is to damaged to do much with it - the enengy output is too unstable. You explisitly did forget that.
In High EMS, he has zero reason to limit Anything - His own programming compels him to ensure all possible options for fixing the Solution are open and considered. He can't do it himself, so someone must do it for him. The unknown variable that bested the Solution is the logical and only choice for this - so in order to complete the Solution, his programming forbids him from holding anything back. The Crucible is only "restricted" in those past options because it get's damaged.
And I also remind you that your view is again false, because even in the high EMS, Synthesis does not activate unless EMS is at the max. So, in order to make sure you pick synthesis, he restricts it even if the Crucible is in full working order?:D. Riiiiight..... No. The Overall progress of the galaxy is what the Catalyst is monitoring.  The point being that -- if he was witholding all other options except the one he wanted you to pick, Synthesis would be at the forefront of the choice no matter what. He's not holding anything back .

The Catalyst could care less about the 'overall progress of the galaxy' as it already felt their peace "won't last" with the destroy ending.  It's only the state of the Crucible that makes any real difference.

Again, my point was that the Catalyst does not withhold Crucible options from you.  If the Crucible is capable, the option to use them are there.  My thanks again for your implicit agreement.

1 - Wrong. If he could do that, he would have ordered the Reapers to stand down, now wouldn't he? If he can "control every single action if he chooses to," he would have ordered the Reapers to not attack the Crucible. Yet, he doesn't. Because he can't.
Wrong. The Crucible completely wipes the hard drive, leaving it blank with zero programming restrictions. The Shepard-Catalyst is completely free to choose what it wants -- something the prior Catalyst never had the option to do. He says that himself. He personally says that he doesn't want to do any of this, because he personally thinks it's impossible to end the conflict, but is forced to do so because of his programming. He literally states that he doesn't want to try and "save life" because he thinks it's a waste of time, but is forced to by his programming. How does that fit into your headcannon?
That's his word, not mine - "Take it up with him." The flaw in reasoning is "Again yours.":pinched:

2 - Yes, the Catalyst explisitly is programed to find a new solution. It's his entire reason for existing. It's his core function - to end conflict. To find a solution to conflict. If the old one is flawed, he explisitly must find a new one, as directed by his own programming. What part of this isn't getting through? He doesn't "opt" to stick with the old solution -- he oldy does so if Shepard gives him no choice by refusing. Shepard is the one that "opt's" to let the old cycles continue, not the Catalyst. And Destory is a "'solution' by the Catalyst's definition by any stretch of the imagination."   Shepard can decide if the Reapers should continue to exist.
The new solution provided by Destroy is wiping the slate clean and starting over without any Reapers, to see if this cycle can indeed do what the others couldn't, and survive without getting into conflict. It's deciding the galaxy is ready to survive without the Reapers interfearing, making the "Solution" of the Reapers no longer needed. This is based on Shepard's faith that the galaxy can survive without their intervention -- a judgement the Catalyst accepts.
The "Solution" of Destroy is "we're ready to go it alone - we don't need anymore help."
The "Solution" of Control is "I have a better idea of what needs to be done. Let me take over"
The "Solution" of Synthesis is "We can evolve to the apex. We can be all that we are ment to be."
Each one fulfills the madate of a final solution, as based on Shepard's idea on which is best. The Catalyst is forced to comply with whichever is chosen.

Wrong. Your claim was the exact opposate -- this entire time you were pushing reasons to not trust the Catalyst - that it was hiding options from you. You tried to push that you needed his "permission" to use certein options, when that's not the case at all. He has no choice. Sorry you missed that:pinched:.

3 - Wrong, The overall progress of the galaxy is directly tied to the Catalyst's view of Shepard. If you fail to unite the galaxy effectively, you do very, very poorly against the Reapers. Thus, the Catalyst will be generally condesending and insulting to you when you reach the end. If you unite the galaxy effectively and hold your own against the Reapers, the Catalyst praises you and says that you are an exaplar for organics. And once again, doens't that only prove that the Catalyst has no choice in what option you pick, and is compelled to do what you tell him? He's differing to your judgement and offering his view, but he does not possess the power to override your choice.

Wrong. Up till now, your arguement was the exact opposate. You were trying to say that the Catalyst controls the options "based on the Crucible status." That isn't ture -- he has Nothing to do with the Crucible. He's just reacting to the options after they are presented. It has nothing to do with it being "capable" because the options aren't pre-designed aspects of the Crucible. My concerns for your [b]complete misunderstanding.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

1 - Wrong. If he could do that, he would have ordered the Reapers to stand down, now wouldn't he? If he can "control every single action if he chooses to," he would have ordered the Reapers to not attack the Crucible. Yet, he doesn't. Because he can't.
Wrong. The Crucible completely wipes the hard drive, leaving it blank with zero programming restrictions. The Shepard-Catalyst is completely free to choose what it wants -- something the prior Catalyst never had the option to do. He says that himself. He personally says that he doesn't want to do any of this, because he personally thinks it's impossible to end the conflict, but is forced to do so because of his programming. He literally states that he doesn't want to try and "save life" because he thinks it's a waste of time, but is forced to by his programming. How does that fit into your headcannon?
That's his word, not mine - "Take it up with him." The flaw in reasoning is "Again yours.":pinched:

Lol, not if he didn't feel like it.  What makes you think he doesn't want to attack the Crucible?

Again, the Catalyst (literally) made the distinction between being able "control" and "direct" the Reapers.  The Catalyst says he "controls" them.  There's really nothing else to talk about here.

You can't call it "wrong" when the Catalyst said it himself.  Game over on this point.  The "you, no you" argument was fun at first, but let's wrap this up.

2 - Yes, the Catalyst explisitly is programed to find a new solution. It's his entire reason for existing. It's his core function - to end conflict. To find a solution to conflict. If the old one is flawed, he explisitly must find a new one, as directed by his own programming. What part of this isn't getting through? He doesn't "opt" to stick with the old solution -- he oldy does so if Shepard gives him no choice by refusing. Shepard is the one that "opt's" to let the old cycles continue, not the Catalyst. And Destory is a "'solution' by the Catalyst's definition by any stretch of the imagination."   Shepard can decide if the Reapers should continue to exist.
The new solution provided by Destroy is wiping the slate clean and starting over without any Reapers, to see if this cycle can indeed do what the others couldn't, and survive without getting into conflict. It's deciding the galaxy is ready to survive without the Reapers interfearing, making the "Solution" of the Reapers no longer needed. This is based on Shepard's faith that the galaxy can survive without their intervention -- a judgement the Catalyst accepts.
The "Solution" of Destroy is "we're ready to go it alone - we don't need anymore help."
The "Solution" of Control is "I have a better idea of what needs to be done. Let me take over"
The "Solution" of Synthesis is "We can evolve to the apex. We can be all that we are ment to be."
Each one fulfills the madate of a final solution, as based on Shepard's idea on which is best. The Catalyst is forced to comply with whichever is chosen.

Don't confuse finding "a" solution with finding a new solution.  Its purpose is finding "a" solution.  If you argue that it's compelled to find a new solution due to one not working, then the Catalyst would not see 'Destroy' as a viable solution... because "the peace won't last."  That's why your point doesn't stand or get through.

Wrong. Your claim was the exact opposate -- this entire time you were pushing reasons to not trust the Catalyst - that it was hiding options from you. You tried to push that you needed his "permission" to use certein options, when that's not the case at all. He has no choice. Sorry you missed that:pinched:.

lol no.  Quote where I claimed the opposite (spoiler:  You can't).  Take a break man or at least use quotes to prove your case.  Let's not drag this out.

And yes, you need the Reaper's 'permission' to end the conflict (and even a quick tutorial on 'how' to end it) by the Reaper king, lol.  This is irrefutable because that's what happens.  Whether the Catalyst was 'forced' or not, it still has to stand aside to let it happen (and teach Shepard first, lol).

Let me know if this still doesn't make sense to you.

3 - Wrong, The overall progress of the galaxy is directly tied to the Catalyst's view of Shepard. If you fail to unite the galaxy effectively, you do very, very poorly against the Reapers. Thus, the Catalyst will be generally condesending and insulting to you when you reach the end. If you unite the galaxy effectively and hold your own against the Reapers, the Catalyst praises you and says that you are an exaplar for organics. And once again, doens't that only prove that the Catalyst has no choice in what option you pick, and is compelled to do what you tell him? He's differing to your judgement and offering his view, but he does not possess the power to override your choice.

Wrong. Up till now, your arguement was the exact opposate. You were trying to say that the Catalyst controls the options "based on the Crucible status." That isn't ture -- he has Nothing to do with the Crucible. He's just reacting to the options after they are presented. It has nothing to do with it being "capable" because the options aren't pre-designed aspects of the Crucible. My concerns for your complete misunderstanding.

Lol you need to start quoting me more directly so that your own ideas don't delude the facts of what I say.  The Catalyst's feelings of Shepard and humanity (for that matter) are completely irrelevant.  It's ultimately/exclusively about the state of the Crucible.

I never said that the Catalyst "controls the options 'based on the Crucible status.'"  I said that the Catalyst only gives Crucible options (and those options are based on the health of the Crucible).  Subtle difference but profoundly different meanings.

I'm tempted to turn your last sentence against you, but I'll just say quote me directly next time (it'll also make your replies smaller).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 août 2013 - 07:59 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, it basically makes all your efforts completely worthless since HE, the genocidal lunatic behind it all, allows you win. That's it. Everything else you did was a failure from the start so why even bother?

Leaves quite a bitter taste.

Pretty much.

[Wayning_Star]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, it basically makes all your efforts completely worthless since HE, the genocidal lunatic behind it all, allows you win. That's it. Everything else you did was a failure from the start so why even bother?

Leaves quite a bitter taste.

Pretty much.

the only way to win an end game is get to the game... in the end.. so, everything done isn't actually wasted. Besides, organics created the fine mess the MEU is in, as they are the lunatic behind it all. The mechs are only a symptom, intellect notwithstanding.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 06 août 2013 - 01:16 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, it basically makes all your efforts completely worthless since HE, the genocidal lunatic behind it all, allows you win. That's it. Everything else you did was a failure from the start so why even bother?

Leaves quite a bitter taste.

Pretty much.

the only way to win an end game is get to the game... in the end.. so, everything done isn't actually wasted. Besides, organics created the fine mess the MEU is in, as they are the lunatic behind it all. The mechs are only a symptom, intellect notwithstanding.

Interesting perspective, but the point was that ultimately, if the Reaper leader didn't step aside to let Shepard use the Crucible, the Reapers would have won.

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1 - Wrong. If he could do that, he would have ordered the Reapers to stand down, now wouldn't he? If he can "control every single action if he chooses to," he would have ordered the Reapers to not attack the Crucible. Yet, he doesn't. Because he can't.
Wrong. The Crucible completely wipes the hard drive, leaving it blank with zero programming restrictions. The Shepard-Catalyst is completely free to choose what it wants -- something the prior Catalyst never had the option to do. He says that himself. He personally says that he doesn't want to do any of this, because he personally thinks it's impossible to end the conflict, but is forced to do so because of his programming. He literally states that he doesn't want to try and "save life" because he thinks it's a waste of time, but is forced to by his programming. How does that fit into your headcannon?
That's his word, not mine - "Take it up with him." The flaw in reasoning is "Again yours.":pinched:

Lol, not if he didn't feel like it.  What makes you think he doesn't want to attack the Crucible?

Again, the Catalyst (literally) made the distinction between being able "control" and "direct" the Reapers.  The Catalyst says he "controls" them.  There's really nothing else to talk about here.

You can't call it "wrong" when the Catalyst said it himself.  Game over on this point.  The "you, no you" argument was fun at first, but let's wrap this up.

2 - Yes, the Catalyst explisitly is programed to find a new solution. It's his entire reason for existing. It's his core function - to end conflict. To find a solution to conflict. If the old one is flawed, he explisitly must find a new one, as directed by his own programming. What part of this isn't getting through? He doesn't "opt" to stick with the old solution -- he oldy does so if Shepard gives him no choice by refusing. Shepard is the one that "opt's" to let the old cycles continue, not the Catalyst. And Destory is a "'solution' by the Catalyst's definition by any stretch of the imagination."   Shepard can decide if the Reapers should continue to exist.
The new solution provided by Destroy is wiping the slate clean and starting over without any Reapers, to see if this cycle can indeed do what the others couldn't, and survive without getting into conflict. It's deciding the galaxy is ready to survive without the Reapers interfearing, making the "Solution" of the Reapers no longer needed. This is based on Shepard's faith that the galaxy can survive without their intervention -- a judgement the Catalyst accepts.
The "Solution" of Destroy is "we're ready to go it alone - we don't need anymore help."
The "Solution" of Control is "I have a better idea of what needs to be done. Let me take over"
The "Solution" of Synthesis is "We can evolve to the apex. We can be all that we are ment to be."
Each one fulfills the madate of a final solution, as based on Shepard's idea on which is best. The Catalyst is forced to comply with whichever is chosen.

Don't confuse finding "a" solution with finding a new solution.  Its purpose is finding "a" solution.  If you argue that it's compelled to find a new solution due to one not working, then the Catalyst would not see 'Destroy' as a viable solution... because "the peace won't last."  That's why your point doesn't stand or get through.

Wrong. Your claim was the exact opposate -- this entire time you were pushing reasons to not trust the Catalyst - that it was hiding options from you. You tried to push that you needed his "permission" to use certein options, when that's not the case at all. He has no choice. Sorry you missed that:pinched:.

lol no.  Quote where I claimed the opposite (spoiler:  You can't).  Take a break man or at least use quotes to prove your case.  Let's not drag this out.

And yes, you need the Reaper's 'permission' to end the conflict (and even a quick tutorial on 'how' to end it) by the Reaper king, lol.  This is irrefutable because that's what happens.  Whether the Catalyst was 'forced' or not, it still has to stand aside to let it happen (and teach Shepard first, lol).

Let me know if this still doesn't make sense to you.

3 - Wrong, The overall progress of the galaxy is directly tied to the Catalyst's view of Shepard. If you fail to unite the galaxy effectively, you do very, very poorly against the Reapers. Thus, the Catalyst will be generally condesending and insulting to you when you reach the end. If you unite the galaxy effectively and hold your own against the Reapers, the Catalyst praises you and says that you are an exaplar for organics. And once again, doens't that only prove that the Catalyst has no choice in what option you pick, and is compelled to do what you tell him? He's differing to your judgement and offering his view, but he does not possess the power to override your choice.

Wrong. Up till now, your arguement was the exact opposate. You were trying to say that the Catalyst controls the options "based on the Crucible status." That isn't ture -- he has Nothing to do with the Crucible. He's just reacting to the options after they are presented. It has nothing to do with it being "capable" because the options aren't pre-designed aspects of the Crucible. My concerns for your complete misunderstanding.

Lol you need to start quoting me more directly so that your own ideas don't delude the facts of what I say.  The Catalyst's feelings of Shepard and humanity (for that matter) are completely irrelevant.  It's ultimately/exclusively about the state of the Crucible.

I never said that the Catalyst "controls the options 'based on the Crucible status.'"  I said that the Catalyst only gives Crucible options (and those options are based on the health of the Crucible).  Subtle difference but profoundly different meanings.

I'm tempted to turn your last sentence against you, but I'll just say quote me directly next time (it'll also make your replies smaller).

1 - How about the fact that the new solutions can't be compleated without the Crucible use, yet the Reapers outside are still attacking? He openly says he doesn't support the current solution anymore, and is even angry when he can't change it with one of the new options. He has done noithing but show that he doesn't want to preserve the old solution. Yet, he can't stop the Reapers from attacking the key to rectifying his Solution. If he could, then he would have already had them stand down. He has no reason to keep them going, so if he did have that kind of "control," the Reapers would have stopped by now. They haven't, meaning he doesn't have direct control over them. Just overseeing control - he directs their goals, but not their individual actions.

Wrong - he did not say that they were all his directly controled servent. The Illusive Man "controls" Cerberus, het he doesn't give individual orders to every single member of the group -- they operate atanomously under their own discression. Same with the Reapers -- the Catalyst directs their overreaching goals, but not their individual movements and actions. Proven by the fact that he can't stop the Reapers from destroying the Crucible -- which is his own key to salvation by compleating the New Solution.

The Catalyst himself says that he doesn't want to do this, but has no choice because of his programming. That's his own word on it. Why don't you take your own advice, pal? Get off the high horse already. The only one argueing "you, no you" was you. End of story.


2 - Wrong. They are the same thing. There is no distinction between them, because they are tantimount to the same thing.
Destroy is a viable solution. It operates on the belief that the organics are ready to try it themselves. Just like Control operates on the belief that Shepard can do better then the Catalyst with the Reapers power, or Synthesis operates on the belief that organics are ready to merge with synthetics in co-existance. The Catalyst figures "if Shepard chooses that -- whatever. It's his/her choice, and I differ to his/her judgement/faith. Since they beat my plan out, it's logical to let them decide what's best." That's basically what the Catalyst is thinking. That is why my point explisitly Does stand and get through. Because it's no less grounded on Shepard's personal faith then then other two. I remind you that the Catalyst has the same negitive approch to Control saying "I do not look forward to being replaced by you" if you respond with "I'm not giving up anything!" Explain that, pal.

3 - Wrong.
"Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just
the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to
choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to
use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new
solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through
someone more willing to comply."
Not the underlined. That was from your post in page 13. You going to say that's not you saying the Catalyst is being selective with the choices? (Spoiler: it is)

Wrong. You do not need the Reapers "permission" to end the war, because it's no longer his to give. The Crucible can't be operated by anyone but Shepard via manual interface. He tells you how to use each option, but does not force you into any of them. He's basically an instruction manual at this point -- he has no say in any of this, as shown when you replace him, or destroy him with no resistance, because he can't, and doesn't even want to.

"Let me know if this still doesn;t make sense to you."

4- Already did, remember?^ Seems the only desluion is on your part, if you can't even remember your own words (itilisised and underlined above). The Catalyst's opinions on Shepard and the galaxy at large are completely and utterly relivent to the choice, as it affects everything from Crucible deployment to fleet status. It is anything but exclusive to the Crucible status, since that is dependant on how everyone else fairs. It a reflection of the other and vice-versa -- Intact Crucible = great unification between galactic forces, which is impressive. That factors in.

Yes you did. You claimed the options came from the Crucible and that he minipulates which ones are avalible (again, above sentance of yours). Completely misinterperted view and meanings:pinched:.

In other words -- you've got nothing:wizard::wizard:

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, it basically makes all your efforts completely worthless since HE, the genocidal lunatic behind it all, allows you win. That's it. Everything else you did was a failure from the start so why even bother?

Leaves quite a bitter taste.

Pretty much.

the only way to win an end game is get to the game... in the end.. so, everything done isn't actually wasted. Besides, organics created the fine mess the MEU is in, as they are the lunatic behind it all. The mechs are only a symptom, intellect notwithstanding.

Interesting perspective, but the point was that ultimately, if the Reaper leader didn't step aside to let Shepard use the Crucible, the Reapers would have won.

Wrong. He doens't have any say in the matter after the thing docks -- he's overridden by it.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Interesting perspective, but the point was that ultimately, if the Reaper leader didn't step aside to let Shepard use the Crucible, the Reapers would have won.

Wrong. He doens't have any say in the matter after the thing docks -- he's overridden by it.

That's irrelevant to what I said.  Nothing "wrong" about it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 août 2013 - 11:05 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

1 - How about the fact that the new solutions can't be compleated without the Crucible use, yet the Reapers outside are still attacking? He openly says he doesn't support the current solution anymore, and is even angry when he can't change it with one of the new options. He has done noithing but show that he doesn't want to preserve the old solution. Yet, he can't stop the Reapers from attacking the key to rectifying his Solution. If he could, then he would have already had them stand down. He has no reason to keep them going, so if he did have that kind of "control," the Reapers would have stopped by now. They haven't, meaning he doesn't have direct control over them. Just overseeing control - he directs their goals, but not their individual actions.

Wrong - he did not say that they were all his directly controled servent. The Illusive Man "controls" Cerberus, het he doesn't give individual orders to every single member of the group -- they operate atanomously under their own discression. Same with the Reapers -- the Catalyst directs their overreaching goals, but not their individual movements and actions. Proven by the fact that he can't stop the Reapers from destroying the Crucible -- which is his own key to salvation by compleating the New Solution.

Put 2 and 2 together.  The Catalyst explicitly distinguishes between "direct[ing]" and "control[ing]" the Reapers.  The Catalyst says he "controls" the Reapers.  How he 'feels' about that or how much control he exerts is ultimately irrelevant.  If he says stop, they stop. 

The Catalyst himself says that he doesn't want to do this, but has no choice because of his programming. That's his own word on it. Why don't you take your own advice, pal? Get off the high horse already. The only one argueing "you, no you" was you. End of story.

Irrelevant.

2 - Wrong. They are the same thing. There is no distinction between them, because they are tantimount to the same thing.
Destroy is a viable solution. It operates on the belief that the organics are ready to try it themselves. Just like Control operates on the belief that Shepard can do better then the Catalyst with the Reapers power, or Synthesis operates on the belief that organics are ready to merge with synthetics in co-existance. The Catalyst figures "if Shepard chooses that -- whatever. It's his/her choice, and I differ to his/her judgement/faith. Since they beat my plan out, it's logical to let them decide what's best." That's basically what the Catalyst is thinking. That is why my point explisitly Does stand and get through. Because it's no less grounded on Shepard's personal faith then then other two. I remind you that the Catalyst has the same negitive approch to Control saying "I do not look forward to being replaced by you" if you respond with "I'm not giving up anything!" Explain that, pal.

Another reason why you need to quote me directly, pal.  Do that and we'll talk about it.  Right now you're arguing with what's in your own head more than you're arguing with me.

3 - Wrong.
"Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just
the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to
choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to
use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new
solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through
someone more willing to comply."
Not the underlined. That was from your post in page 13. You going to say that's not you saying the Catalyst is being selective with the choices? (Spoiler: it is)

Wrong. You do not need the Reapers "permission" to end the war, because it's no longer his to give. The Crucible can't be operated by anyone but Shepard via manual interface. He tells you how to use each option, but does not force you into any of them. He's basically an instruction manual at this point -- he has no say in any of this, as shown when you replace him, or destroy him with no resistance, because he can't, and doesn't even want to.

Again, you're arguing with what's in your own head more than me. I said that there's more options out there than what's in the Crucible, but the Crucible's 3 choices are the only "new solution" candidates the Catalyst will entertain.. And if the Catalyst wanted to use the Crucible, he could've gotten someone other than Shepard to do it.  If the Crucible is what changed the Catalyst and not Shepard's accomplishments, then it's irrelevant who Shepard is and it's irrelevant who uses the Crucible.

Let me know if this is still not making sense to you.

4- Already did, remember?^ Seems the only desluion is on your part, if you can't even remember your own words (itilisised and underlined above). The Catalyst's opinions on Shepard and the galaxy at large are completely and utterly relivent to the choice, as it affects everything from Crucible deployment to fleet status. It is anything but exclusive to the Crucible status, since that is dependant on how everyone else fairs. It a reflection of the other and vice-versa -- Intact Crucible = great unification between galactic forces, which is impressive. That factors in.

Yes you did. You claimed the options came from the Crucible and that he minipulates which ones are avalible (again, above sentance of yours). Completely misinterperted view and meanings:pinched:.

In other words -- you've got nothing:wizard::wizard:

Listen to yourself, you're... indoctrinated.

But seriously, re-read what I said (and read it to understand it, not just to find an argument).  And no, I never said the Catalyst manipulates which ones are available... heck, I can pull up a quote of me saying that the Catalyst does not hold back Crucible options from Shepard.  Want me to?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 août 2013 - 11:27 .

[HZimmer]

Maybe, Reaper-King finally read "Critique of Practical Reason" and found out he´s acting wrong. So he took the chance when this human visits him.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

HZimmer wrote...

Maybe, Reaper-King finally read "Critique of Practical Reason" and found out he´s acting wrong. So he took the chance when this human visits him.

A Reaper mid-cycle crises?

[dorktainian]

you know if something seems too good to be true it usually is.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

dorktainian wrote...

you know if something seems too good to be true it usually is.

That's why I was musing if the Crucible itself was of Reaper design...seems rather convenient otherwise.

[HZimmer]

If the crucible is a Reaper design, why is there not just the synthesis-button?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

HZimmer wrote...

If the crucible is a Reaper design, why is there not just the synthesis-button?

Because the Catalyst is crazy.


But more seriously, that opens up a Pandora's box of possible explanations from IT to organic/non-indoctrinated modifications to the original design. 

[HZimmer]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

HZimmer wrote...

If the crucible is a Reaper design, why is there not just the synthesis-button?

Because the Catalyst is crazy.


But more seriously, that opens up a Pandora's box of possible explanations from IT to organic/non-indoctrinated modifications to the original design. 

And this is an example why the Catalyst is stupid.

The cycles and the reapers are a priori. In order to act right, the cycles and the reapers had to be a posteriori.

Modifié par HZimmer, 07 août 2013 - 12:27 .

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1 -[/b] How about the fact that the new solutions can't be compleated without the Crucible use, yet the Reapers outside are still attacking? He openly says he doesn't support the current solution anymore, and is even angry when he can't change it with one of the new options. He has done noithing but show that he doesn't want to preserve the old solution. Yet, he can't stop the Reapers from attacking the key to rectifying his Solution. If he could, then he would have already had them stand down. He has no reason to keep them going, so if he did have that kind of "control," the Reapers would have stopped by now. They haven't, meaning he doesn't have direct control over them. Just overseeing control - he directs their goals, but not their individual actions.

Wrong - he did not say that they were all his directly controled servent. The Illusive Man "controls" Cerberus, het he doesn't give individual orders to every single member of the group -- they operate atanomously under their own discression. Same with the Reapers -- the Catalyst directs their overreaching goals, but not their individual movements and actions. Proven by the fact that he can't stop the Reapers from destroying the Crucible -- which is his own key to salvation by compleating the New Solution.

Put 2 and 2 together.  The Catalyst explicitly distinguishes between "direct[ing]" and "control[ing]" the Reapers.  The Catalyst says he "controls" the Reapers.  How he 'feels' about that or how much control he exerts is ultimately irrelevant.  If he says stop, they stop. 

The Catalyst himself says that he doesn't want to do this, but has no choice because of his programming. That's his own word on it. Why don't you take your own advice, pal? Get off the high horse already. The only one argueing "you, no you" was you. End of story.

Irrelevant.

2 - Wrong. They are the same thing. There is no distinction between them, because they are tantimount to the same thing.
Destroy is a viable solution. It operates on the belief that the organics are ready to try it themselves. Just like Control operates on the belief that Shepard can do better then the Catalyst with the Reapers power, or Synthesis operates on the belief that organics are ready to merge with synthetics in co-existance. The Catalyst figures "if Shepard chooses that -- whatever. It's his/her choice, and I differ to his/her judgement/faith. Since they beat my plan out, it's logical to let them decide what's best." That's basically what the Catalyst is thinking. That is why my point explisitly Does stand and get through. Because it's no less grounded on Shepard's personal faith then then other two. I remind you that the Catalyst has the same negitive approch to Control saying "I do not look forward to being replaced by you" if you respond with "I'm not giving up anything!" Explain that, pal.

Another reason why you need to quote me directly, pal.  Do that and we'll talk about it.  Right now you're arguing with what's in your own head more than you're arguing with me.

3 - Wrong.
"Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just
the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to
choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to
use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new
solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through
someone more willing to comply."
Not the underlined. That was from your post in page 13. You going to say that's not you saying the Catalyst is being selective with the choices? (Spoiler: it is)

Wrong. You do not need the Reapers "permission" to end the war, because it's no longer his to give. The Crucible can't be operated by anyone but Shepard via manual interface. He tells you how to use each option, but does not force you into any of them. He's basically an instruction manual at this point -- he has no say in any of this, as shown when you replace him, or destroy him with no resistance, because he can't, and doesn't even want to.

Again, you're arguing with what's in your own head more than me. I said that there's more options out there than what's in the Crucible, but the Crucible's 3 choices are the only "new solution" candidates the Catalyst will entertain.. And if the Catalyst wanted to use the Crucible, he could've gotten someone other than Shepard to do it.  If the Crucible is what changed the Catalyst and not Shepard's accomplishments, then it's irrelevant who Shepard is and it's irrelevant who uses the Crucible.

Let me know if this is still not making sense to you.

4- Already did, remember?^ Seems the only desluion is on your part, if you can't even remember your own words (itilisised and underlined above). The Catalyst's opinions on Shepard and the galaxy at large are completely and utterly relivent to the choice, as it affects everything from Crucible deployment to fleet status. It is anything but exclusive to the Crucible status, since that is dependant on how everyone else fairs. It a reflection of the other and vice-versa -- Intact Crucible = great unification between galactic forces, which is impressive. That factors in.

Yes you did. You claimed the options came from the Crucible and that he minipulates which ones are avalible (again, above sentance of yours). Completely misinterperted view and meanings:pinched:.

In other words -- you've got nothing:wizard::wizard:

Listen to yourself, you're... indoctrinated.

But seriously, re-read what I said (and read it to understand it, not just to find an argument).  And no, I never said the Catalyst manipulates which ones are available... heck, I can pull up a quote of me saying that the Catalyst does not hold back Crucible options from Shepard.  Want me to?

1 - Take your own advice.
Put two and two together yourself. The Catalyst never displays that level of control. He commands what they believe in, not their individual actions. He "controls" the Reapers no different then TIM "controls" Cerberus -- he heads up their primary opjectives, but doesn't have direct control over every single soldier and their actions.  He explisitly cannot "say stop and they'll stop," because they haven't, even though the Catalyst himself has basically surrendered. If he could, he already would have, and they wouldn't destroy the Crucible if you wait too long.

2 - You mean "I have no retort.":wizard: Honestly, it's completely relivent, since it proves that he doesn't want to do this in the first place, and thus, has no interest in defending the Solution if it's flawed.

3 -You mean the one I already provided?
"Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just  the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through someone more willing to comply."

Isn't that you?
Besides, what does one of your qoutes matter for why Destory is viable to the Catalyst? LOL, seems you got your wires crossed - again.

4 - No there isn't. There are no other options provided by the Crucible - because if their were, the Catalyst's programming would force him to present them. If they existed, he would have presented them - simple as that. The Catalyst physically cannot refuse to display any option. His programming prevents him from doing so in the intrest of finging the New Solution.
Wrong - that would be self-sabotage of his own Solution, which violates his programming. He didn't plan any of this out - what part of that isn't getting through? Now that Shepard proved that the Solution is flawed, Shepard (AKA, the one that united the entire galaxy) is the only one that could choose what choice should be made. Anyone else, the Catalyst wouldn't appear to talk to. The Curicble changed the Catalyst's viewpoints because it's docking is based off of Shepard's acomplishments. All connected.
"Let me know if this still doesn't make any sense to you."

5 - Wow - that was just a bad retort. If you have nothing to say, why say it?

Every single thing you just said, do it yourself first, (and "read it to understand it, not just to find an arguement) because you are missing every single point.You [b]just this post said that the Catalyst chooses which options provided by the Crucible/Citadel merger are viable, and now are saying that he doesn't interfere with the choices presented? :lol:

And likewise, I can pull up the quote of you claiming that the Catalyst filters options from the Crucible out. "Want me to?" Oh, right - I already did:P

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

you know if something seems too good to be true it usually is.

That's why I was musing if the Crucible itself was of Reaper design...seems rather convenient otherwise.

And yet, the Reapers do their damndest to destroy the thing -- which kinda counters that belief. As does every single thing that follows.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

1 - Take your own advice.
Put two and two together yourself. The Catalyst never displays that level of control. He commands what they believe in, not their individual actions. He "controls" the Reapers no different then TIM "controls" Cerberus -- he heads up their primary opjectives, but doesn't have direct control over every single soldier and their actions.  He explisitly cannot "say stop and they'll stop," because they haven't, even though the Catalyst himself has basically surrendered. If he could, he already would have, and they wouldn't destroy the Crucible if you wait too long.

lol how would you know he never had that level of control?  You only meet him once the Crucible is docked.  Again, there's a difference between "directing" the Reapers (which is what you're suggesting) and "controlling" the Reapers.  The Catalyst explicitly uses both terminologies and says specifically:  "I control the Reapers."

Let's look at the game, not what you'd like to think.

2 - You mean "I have no retort.":wizard: Honestly, it's completely relivent, since it proves that he doesn't want to do this in the first place, and thus, has no interest in defending the Solution if it's flawed.

No, it's just irrelevant.  If we follow your logic, that the Catalyst has 'no control,' then how he feels is irrelevant.  If he's bound by the Crucible to pursue those 'possibilities,' then it doesn't matter who Shepard is (or who uses the Crucible).  It's game over on this point.

3 -You mean the one I already provided?
"Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just  the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through someone more willing to comply."

Isn't that you?
Besides, what does one of your qoutes matter for why Destory is viable to the Catalyst? LOL, seems you got your wires crossed - again.

Let me walk you through it. 

Crucible = 3 options.  With me so far?

The Catalyst only entertains those 3 options.  (ie.  The Catalyst only wants to use the Crucible as alternatives for solutions).  Still with me?

Now, there are more options available than those 3.  (ie. There are more options available than the Crucible).  However, the Catalyst does not wish to entertain them.

If you still have trouble understanding this, let me know.  Otherwise, game over on this point.

4 - No there isn't. There are no other options provided by the Crucible - because if their were, the Catalyst's programming would force him to present them. If they existed, he would have presented them - simple as that. The Catalyst physically cannot refuse to display any option. His programming prevents him from doing so in the intrest of finging the New Solution.
Wrong - that would be self-sabotage of his own Solution, which violates his programming. He didn't plan any of this out - what part of that isn't getting through? Now that Shepard proved that the Solution is flawed, Shepard (AKA, the one that united the entire galaxy) is the only one that could choose what choice should be made. Anyone else, the Catalyst wouldn't appear to talk to. The Curicble changed the Catalyst's viewpoints because it's docking is based off of Shepard's acomplishments. All connected.
"Let me know if this still doesn't make any sense to you."

Again, I never said there were more than those 3 options provided by the Crucible.  Hopefully this makes more sense to you now.  I already said that the Catalyst would not withhold Crucible options... but you still seem stuck with your own ideas.  The difference though, is that I've got more posts of myself to back my claim up.  Want me to?

5 - Wow - that was just a bad retort. If you have nothing to say, why say it?

Every single thing you just said, do it yourself first, (and "read it to understand it, not just to find an arguement) because you are missing every single point.You just this post said that the Catalyst chooses which options provided by the Crucible/Citadel merger are viable, and now are saying that he doesn't interfere with the choices presented? :lol:

And likewise, I can pull up the quote of you claiming that the Catalyst filters options from the Crucible out. "Want me to?" Oh, right - I already did:P

lol, again, I never said the Catalyst filters options from the Crucible out... that's your misunderstanding alone.  I'll prove it with supporting evidence... another quote:

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Think it through a little more... if the Crucible is in full working order, why would the Catalyst limit the choices in a low EMS ending?  He wouldn't.  The EMS ultimately boils down to the quality and/or health of the Crucible.  Just because it ultimately boils down to the Crucible doesn't mean I 'forgot' anything about what EMS is supposed to represent.  It just all boils down to what it does for the Crucible, bar none.

Page 13, Game over, let's move on 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, the Reapers do their damndest to destroy the thing -- which kinda counters that belief. As does every single thing that follows.

That's also why they left the beam on, didn't shoot down the Normandy, didn't send in reinforcements to stop Shepard, why a Reaper-controlled TIM wanted Shepard "to believe," etc.  The ending counters itself all the time.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 août 2013 - 09:40 .

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, the Reapers do their damndest to destroy the thing -- which kinda counters that belief. As does every single thing that follows.

That's also why they left the beam on, didn't shoot down the Normandy, didn't send in reinforcements to stop Shepard, why a Reaper-controlled TIM wanted Shepard "to believe," etc.  The ending counters itself all the time.

Wrong. The beam couldn't BE shut off. If it could, it would have been turned off already, instead of having Harbinger guard it. It;s the Citadel's anchor to Earth -- there is no shut-off for it, because it keeps the Citadel teathered over Earth. Without it, the Citadel would just drift around the Earth, unable to stay aligned with any set location because of orbital rotation.

Wrong. Harbinger doesn't see the Normandy as a threat. It's an insect to him. He doesn't kill it because he simply doesn't feel the pressing need. It's like saying "your so weak that I 'm not even going to bother killing you."

Wrong. That's what Harbinger was -- reinforcements to Stop Shepard. And after everything around the beam was decimated, Shepard was assumed dead by everyone - even Major Coats says it over the radio. No one sends reinforcements when you are considered dead.

Wrong. That's not even a flaw -- TIM's own self-delusion is making him do that. He's trying to convince himself that what he's doing is right. If he can get Shepard to believe, he'll believe it himself. It a psychosis brought on from self-delsuion that he's not indoctrinated.

The correct statement is that you[/b] try to counter [b]in-game cannon. And fail:pinched:l:D

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 août 2013 - 10:04 .

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1 - Take your own advice.
Put two and two together yourself. The Catalyst never displays that level of control. He commands what they believe in, not their individual actions. He "controls" the Reapers no different then TIM "controls" Cerberus -- he heads up their primary opjectives, but doesn't have direct control over every single soldier and their actions.  He explisitly cannot "say stop and they'll stop," because they haven't, even though the Catalyst himself has basically surrendered. If he could, he already would have, and they wouldn't destroy the Crucible if you wait too long.

lol how would you know he never had that level of control?  You only meet him once the Crucible is docked.  Again, there's a difference between "directing" the Reapers (which is what you're suggesting) and "controlling" the Reapers.  The Catalyst explicitly uses both terminologies and says specifically:  "I control the Reapers."

Let's look at the game, not what you'd like to think.

2 - You mean "I have no retort.":wizard: Honestly, it's completely relivent, since it proves that he doesn't want to do this in the first place, and thus, has no interest in defending the Solution if it's flawed.

No, it's just irrelevant.  If we follow your logic, that the Catalyst has 'no control,' then how he feels is irrelevant.  If he's bound by the Crucible to pursue those 'possibilities,' then it doesn't matter who Shepard is (or who uses the Crucible).  It's game over on this point.

3 -You mean the one I already provided?
"Again, three options exist, but aren't the only options.  They're just  the only options the Catalyst chooses to entertain and force Shepard to choose between (or the cycles continue).  And even if Shepard refused to use the Crucible's options, if the Catalyst really wanted to find a new solution, he could have tried one of those other ones himself through someone more willing to comply."

Isn't that you?
Besides, what does one of your qoutes matter for why Destory is viable to the Catalyst? LOL, seems you got your wires crossed - again.

Let me walk you through it. 

Crucible = 3 options.  With me so far?

The Catalyst only entertains those 3 options.  (ie.  The Catalyst only wants to use the Crucible as alternatives for solutions).  Still with me?

Now, there are more options available than those 3.  (ie. There are more options available than the Crucible).  However, the Catalyst does not wish to entertain them.

If you still have trouble understanding this, let me know.  Otherwise, game over on this point.

4 - No there isn't. There are no other options provided by the Crucible - because if their were, the Catalyst's programming would force him to present them. If they existed, he would have presented them - simple as that. The Catalyst physically cannot refuse to display any option. His programming prevents him from doing so in the intrest of finging the New Solution.
Wrong - that would be self-sabotage of his own Solution, which violates his programming. He didn't plan any of this out - what part of that isn't getting through? Now that Shepard proved that the Solution is flawed, Shepard (AKA, the one that united the entire galaxy) is the only one that could choose what choice should be made. Anyone else, the Catalyst wouldn't appear to talk to. The Curicble changed the Catalyst's viewpoints because it's docking is based off of Shepard's acomplishments. All connected.
"Let me know if this still doesn't make any sense to you."

Again, I never said there were more than those 3 options provided by the Crucible.  Hopefully this makes more sense to you now.  I already said that the Catalyst would not withhold Crucible options... but you still seem stuck with your own ideas.  The difference though, is that I've got more posts of myself to back my claim up.  Want me to?

5 - Wow - that was just a bad retort. If you have nothing to say, why say it?

Every single thing you just said, do it yourself first, (and "read it to understand it, not just to find an arguement) because you are missing every single point.You just this post said that the Catalyst chooses which options provided by the Crucible/Citadel merger are viable, and now are saying that he doesn't interfere with the choices presented? :lol:

And likewise, I can pull up the quote of you claiming that the Catalyst filters options from the Crucible out. "Want me to?" Oh, right - I already did:P

lol, again, I never said the Catalyst filters options from the Crucible out... that's your misunderstanding alone.  I'll prove it with supporting evidence... another quote:

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Think it through a little more... if the Crucible is in full working order, why would the Catalyst limit the choices in a low EMS ending?  He wouldn't.  The EMS ultimately boils down to the quality and/or health of the Crucible.  Just because it ultimately boils down to the Crucible doesn't mean I 'forgot' anything about what EMS is supposed to represent.  It just all boils down to what it does for the Crucible, bar none.

Page 13, Game over, let's move on 

-1>  Because he would have used it already to stop the Crucible from being attacked by the Reapers. The Catalyst's hopes of fixing the Solution rest on the Crucible - yet the Reapers will destroy it if you are idle too long. If he could control the Reapers on that level, the Crucible would never come under threat to begin with. LOL, did you even play the game? Because you seem have to missed that bit. The difference is that you are using the wrong definition of "Control" to describe the Reapers.
And the Illusive Man uses "Control" to define his leadership of Cerberus. And Anderson uses "Control" to define his leadership of the Ressistance. Same wording, different meanings. Your flaw was that you are taking the wording of "control" far too literally and directly. It means he "controls" what they want, not what they do. There are multiple definitions for a single word, you know.

"Let's look at the game, not what you like." Because in the game, he never once displays that level of in-depth mastership over the Reapers, even when it threatens his own salvation. Take a guess what that means for your headcannoned responce?

-2> Wrong. If he doesn't want to do this, then he has no reason to want to risk himself to achieve it, henceforth, he would have no negitive opinion about Destroy killing him. Meaning that he has no reason to minipulate Shepard into a spicific choice.
Again, wrong. If it were anyone else but Shepard, the Catalyst wouldn't differ to their judgement. He would argue on what's better, instead of submitting. Shepard, being the one that made all this possible single-handedly, is the only one the Catalyst would differ to in making the choice. It would argue against anyone else.

-3> Let me point out the flaws in that.

The Catalyst is programmed to end conflict ("with me so far?")
The Catalyst's programmoing forces him to take any and all measures to make sure conflict is stopped. Even to the point where his creators are identified as part of the problem. Meaning that his programming forbids him from discounting ANY possibility in ending conflict. (Still with me?)
The cycle is proven as flawed when the Crucible docks, rendering the current Solution as void, meaning that a new one must be found. His programming dictates him to (Still with me?)
The Crucible and Citadel merging creates new possibilities, which his programming forces him to consider every single one avalible, and discount NONE of them. (Still with me? )
In order to fix the Solution and end chaos, every single option MUST be prwsented, considered, and rendered avalible, according to his own core programming. Discounting any is FORBIDDEN by his own core programming, and thus, IMPOSSIBLE to do (still with me? )
All options must be entertained, regardless of weather he wants to or not. Otherwise, neither Control orDestroy would be avalible. If he "doesn't wish to entertain any options he doesn't like," why are the ones he dislikes the baseline two choices?:pinched: (Still with me?)
The fact that Destroy and Control (BOTH of which, he disaproves of using personally) are the baseline options supports your belief, how?. Because I'm pretty sure that if he could ommit options that he didn't think benifical, neither of those two would be up. Rendering your entire headcannon theroy completely invalid by the fact that those two exist and are presented in the first place. (if you Still have trouble understanding this, let me know. Otheriwse, Game over on this point:lol:)

-4> LOL, didn't you just say in the above point that the Catalyst ommits any options he doesn't consider benifical? Isn't that the definition of editing the choices?
Dude, you are countering yourself - stay consistant!! First the Catalyst "only entertains 3 options out of many, many more out there," and now you are saying "he doens't hide any of the options?" LOL, make up your mind! If there were other options avalible, he'd present them. The only options avalible are the ones we see. (and for the Record, I knew what you were talking about - it was just flawed. The Crucible is the last shot -- there are no remaining resources left in the galaxy for anything else, AKA no non-based Crucible options EXIST to be considered. Making you wrong twice over on locgial backing, and plasuibility.)
Your own posts counter your beliefs. I've already proven that. Want me to again?

-5> Wrong. I knew what you ment from the beginning -- it just didn't have any barring on what I said. When I say he can't abstain from presenting any possible Solution, that includes Non-Crucible based. Problem is, there ARE NO non-Crucible based solutions.. Otherwise, they would have been presented like every other option we see.
The entire galaxy threw it's resources into this. If there was another option, it would have been presented.
EMS affects everything. The Catalyst is impressed by how the galaxt united, because it allowed them to get tp this point.

Game over. End of stroy.:lol:

[shingara]

For my 2 cents, its all FUBAR from the second you hit the beam.