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Anyone find it kinda odd that in order to stop the Reapers once and for all...


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#426
Mr. Gogeta34

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@silverexile17s, again... we'll cover everything, point by point.  So there's no 'worming' out of anything.  We're getting near the end of the first point.... so get the 2nd one you want to hit ready. 


silverexile17s wrote...

The directives are "Complete the Solution through any avalible option, including at the cost of self-preservation.
If it's judgement is proven invalid, it must differ to the highest athourity (Shepard) on what Solution is ultimately valid.
It's directives compel it to accept whatever new Solution is manually inputed into it by the higher athourity, regardless of personal belief.
Completing the Solution is paramount."

It's as simple as that -- the Catalyst never had any choice in the matter after the Crucible docked. And it's directives ensure that it couldn't turn away any option -- which are the three we see, since no non-based Crucible options exist.
And while it could accept stimuli from anyone, it must be Shepard that does this, because Shepard is the one that united the galaxy and got them this far, and Shepard is the only one that could make Synthesis possible, and one of the few with strong enough will to make Control possible. No one else has that track list, so no one else would have the Catalyst's acceptance -- he would just debate with them round and round on what to do.


How much did the Crucible dictate the directives you mentioned?

What was the Catalyst's directives before and after the Crucible docked?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 18 août 2013 - 10:23 .


#427
Confused-Shepard

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Right on the money. It is NOT an act of defiance but rather a compromise.

#428
dorktainian

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I chose destroy. shepard woke up in a strange place, in his regular uniform (not his armour, his uniform.....check if you don't believe me) buried in rubble.

since I've been playing as shepard throughout the trilogy, him surviving imo is a win.



saved.....for the time being.

Modifié par dorktainian, 18 août 2013 - 04:13 .


#429
sveners

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silverexile17s wrote...


And while it could accept stimuli from anyone, it must be Shepard that does this, because Shepard is the one that united the galaxy and got them this far, and Shepard is the only one that could make Synthesis possible, and one of the few with strong enough will to make Control possible. No one else has that track list, so no one else would have the Catalyst's acceptance -- he would just debate with them round and round on what to do.


Where on god's green earth did you come up with this? Shepard is not important. It could be any organic in that chamber. The reason Shepard is there is because we, the players, actually want to see the end.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say the real hero is the Catalyst. Why? Because he sees (apparently) that his solution is flawed, and a new one is required, but since he cannot make anything happen he just lifts up least dead corpse from the control room. Almost as a tragic hero. Allowing himself to die (through any choice the organic makes), to make a better universe.

#430
silverexile17s

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sveners wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


And while it could accept stimuli from anyone, it must be Shepard that does this, because Shepard is the one that united the galaxy and got them this far, and Shepard is the only one that could make Synthesis possible, and one of the few with strong enough will to make Control possible. No one else has that track list, so no one else would have the Catalyst's acceptance -- he would just debate with them round and round on what to do.


Where on god's green earth did you come up with this? Shepard is not important. It could be any organic in that chamber. The reason Shepard is there is because we, the players, actually want to see the end.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say the real hero is the Catalyst. Why? Because he sees (apparently) that his solution is flawed, and a new one is required, but since he cannot make anything happen he just lifts up least dead corpse from the control room. Almost as a tragic hero. Allowing himself to die (through any choice the organic makes), to make a better universe.

Name me one person that can make Synthesis work?
Name me one person that can make Control work that isn't dead or indoctrinated by now?
The only option that can be used by anyone and everyone is Destroy. Shepard is the only person that can make all three choices work. I pretty sure that makes him pretty damned important. I mean, where did you get the idea that Synthesis could work with anyone else besides the half-synthetic Shepard? Because last I checked, Shepard was the only one that could make more then one option work.

I admit you have an ... interesting perspective of the Catalyst. However, I still think that Shepard is the hero having to make an impossible choice like that -- genocide, dictatorship, or liniar evolution.

#431
silverexile17s

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

@silverexile17s, again... we'll cover everything, point by point.  So there's no 'worming' out of anything.  We're getting near the end of the first point.... so get the 2nd one you want to hit ready. 


silverexile17s wrote...

The directives are "Complete the Solution through any avalible option, including at the cost of self-preservation.
If it's judgement is proven invalid, it must differ to the highest athourity (Shepard) on what Solution is ultimately valid.
It's directives compel it to accept whatever new Solution is manually inputed into it by the higher athourity, regardless of personal belief.
Completing the Solution is paramount."

It's as simple as that -- the Catalyst never had any choice in the matter after the Crucible docked. And it's directives ensure that it couldn't turn away any option -- which are the three we see, since no non-based Crucible options exist.
And while it could accept stimuli from anyone, it must be Shepard that does this, because Shepard is the one that united the galaxy and got them this far, and Shepard is the only one that could make Synthesis possible, and one of the few with strong enough will to make Control possible. No one else has that track list, so no one else would have the Catalyst's acceptance -- he would just debate with them round and round on what to do.


How much did the Crucible dictate the directives you mentioned?

What was the Catalyst's directives before and after the Crucible docked?

Why? Why bother disecting every little thing when you were handeling it well enough before -- until I pointed out the flaws in your "non-Crucible options" and "Shepard isn't neccessary for the choice" theroies. It's far too convient of you to try and drop it all just because you can't respond to them. Otherwise, you wouldn't have dropped them to begin with -- you aren't responding to any other threads, and this is your own thread.
Just saying, it's pretty strange that you seemingly don't have the time for your own thread.


:Answer to your topic - It's not the Crucible at all. It's the Catalyst's own directives that motivate him to use the Crucible. Now that the Solution is proven to be flawed, the Catalyst's directives compel him to fix it with a new one using the tools avalible to him. The Crucible is that tool, through which new possibilities can be achieved via Dark Energy minipulation. The Crucible doesn't alter his directives at all. It just gives him access to more possibilities for new Solutions then he could have created himself.
The directives themselves never changed. Not once. There are just more ways to fulfill them now. New means/paths to reach the same goal. Playing Mass Effect, you surely should be able to accept the ideal of "multiple paths to the same goal, without comprimising your "code.""

#432
Mr. Gogeta34

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@silverexile17s, you'll see...


...or you won't... either way, it'll be fun.Image IPB


In response:

So the Catalyst's code was not modified by the Crucible at all?  The Crucible didn't obligate the Catalyst into doing anything more than considering what it could do?  It merely presented new 'possibilities' for the Catalyst to entertain (given its already-established purpose)? 


Do I have it right so far?

#433
KevShep

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The crucible is just plain stupid and the point of the catalyst is also just plain stupid.

Things that the catalyst says like..."we tried synthesis before but it didnt work, you(galaxy's races) are ready". How can we be ready for it? If we were ready for it we would have it already...the fact that the galaxy does NOT have synthesis is proof that we are NOT ready for synthesis. If we are ready for synthesis then we would have developed it by now. You dont say that cave men are ready for guns or nukes when they havent invented them yet.

#434
silverexile17s

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

@silverexile17s, you'll see...


...or you won't... either way, it'll be fun.Image IPB


In response:

So the Catalyst's code was not modified by the Crucible at all?  The Crucible didn't obligate the Catalyst into doing anything more than considering what it could do?  It merely presented new 'possibilities' for the Catalyst to entertain (given its already-established purpose)? 


Do I have it right so far?

I have seen. The only one that hasn't has been you. Maybe if you open your eyes and stop trying to ignore what you don't want to believe.

Responce: No, it was not modified by the Crucible at all. All the Crucible did was show him that there were other paths/options avalible to use. His programming isn't modified by the Crucible at all.
Finally, you're catching on. What his programming does entail is to use whatever means to create a new Solution are avalibe. Any tool - that inludes the Crucible. All it did was show new ways to proceed.

#435
silverexile17s

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KevShep wrote...

The crucible is just plain stupid and the point of the catalyst is also just plain stupid.

Things that the catalyst says like..."we tried synthesis before but it didnt work, you(galaxy's races) are ready". How can we be ready for it? If we were ready for it we would have it already...the fact that the galaxy does NOT have synthesis is proof that we are NOT ready for synthesis. If we are ready for synthesis then we would have developed it by now. You dont say that cave men are ready for guns or nukes when they havent invented them yet.

Because it's defaulting to Shepard's judgement. Shepard beat the Solution, so Shepard is now the higher athourity on what the galaxy is or isn't ready for. The Catalyst is just offering personal opinion on what's best or not. Kinda like how you do or don't listen to the advice of your companions based on how you are playing the game.
Bottom line: If Shepard thinks the galaxy is united enough for it, then the Catalyst won't agrue the point.

#436
Mr. Gogeta34

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Ah there you are.Image IPB  We're almost there.

silverexile17s wrote...

No, it was not modified by the Crucible at all. All the Crucible did was show him that there were other paths/options avalible to use. His programming isn't modified by the Crucible at all.
Finally, you're catching on. What his programming does entail is to use whatever means to create a new Solution are avalibe. Any tool - that inludes the Crucible. All it did was show new ways to proceed.


Is the Catalyst looking for a new solution that it believes will solve the problem or will any solution do as long as it's "new?"

#437
KaiserShep

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Or just really pushing for the only option that allows it to survive. He thinks he's slick. He won't be so slick when his power conduit is ruptured.

#438
David7204

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I doubt it. The Catalyst is not concerned for his own survival.

#439
KaiserShep

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Why so serious?

#440
David7204

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Oh, is this not a serious thread? My mistake. Carry on, then.

#441
Linkenski

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?Image IPB


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continueImage IPB

Mass Effect 3 had a dumb story in general. By the time I reached the ending it just felt like icing on the ****cake.

#442
KiwiQuiche

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Just put your whole ****ing sentence in the damn title.

But yes, the end is stupid.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 23 août 2013 - 11:12 .


#443
Mr. Gogeta34

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KaiserShep wrote...

Or just really pushing for the only option that allows it to survive. He thinks he's slick. He won't be so slick when his power conduit is ruptured.


I don't think Destroy allowed him to surviveImage IPB


David7204 wrote...

I doubt it. The Catalyst is not concerned for his own survival.


Indeed, or anyone else's apparently... (Doesn't the low-EMS destroy ending wipe everyone out?  But the Catalyst is cool with this.)

#444
Mr. Gogeta34

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David7204 wrote...

Oh, is this not a serious thread? My mistake. Carry on, then.


It's a serious thread disguised as a non-serious thread... or is it the other way around?  Whichever, pick a side and go all-in.Image IPB


KiwiQuiche wrote...

Just put your whole ****ing sentence in the damn title.

But yes, the end is stupid.


Was kinda running out of room there...  But what, you don't like cliffhangers?Image IPB

#445
Mr. Gogeta34

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You know another thing that's neat, is that there's deliberate, retractable walk-ways to all of the conduits... Does that not seem a little odd to anyone?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 août 2013 - 05:53 .


#446
KiwiQuiche

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Oh, is this not a serious thread? My mistake. Carry on, then.


It's a serious thread disguised as a non-serious thread... or is it the other way around?  Whichever, pick a side and go all-in.Image IPB


KiwiQuiche wrote...

Just put your whole ****ing sentence in the damn title.

But yes, the end is stupid.


Was kinda running out of room there...  But what, you don't like cliffhangers?Image IPB


Not at the end of a damn trilogy I don't.

#447
silverexile17s

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ah there you are.Image IPB  We're almost there.

silverexile17s wrote...

No, it was not modified by the Crucible at all. All the Crucible did was show him that there were other paths/options avalible to use. His programming isn't modified by the Crucible at all.
Finally, you're catching on. What his programming does entail is to use whatever means to create a new Solution are avalibe. Any tool - that inludes the Crucible. All it did was show new ways to proceed.


Is the Catalyst looking for a new solution that it believes will solve the problem or will any solution do as long as it's "new?"

No, we aren't "Almost there." Otherwise, this would have ended a long time ago.

Any New Solution will do, as long as it offers a resolution to the conflcit. Shepard's judgement is basically the defining element in this. Any Solution will do -- provided it's possible. Here at the end of all things, what you see is what you get with the ending choices.

#448
silverexile17s

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Or just really pushing for the only option that allows it to survive. He thinks he's slick. He won't be so slick when his power conduit is ruptured.


I don't think Destroy allowed him to surviveImage IPB


David7204 wrote...

I doubt it. The Catalyst is not concerned for his own survival.


Indeed, or anyone else's apparently... (Doesn't the low-EMS destroy ending wipe everyone out?  But the Catalyst is cool with this.)

1. Nothing synthetic survies that.

2. As far as the Catalyst is concerned, that's Shepard's fault, not his. He's not the one making the choice -- he's just telling you what's avalible. You make the choices, so your at fault. After all, he does warn you that life will be mostly destroyed. He no longer has any say in the matter -- you make the choice, the consiquences are yours and yours alone. If life gets wiped out -- that won't be his fault. Of course he isn't "cool" with it, just like he's not cool with any variant of Destory or Control. But he submits because Shepard's the one with the power here.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 août 2013 - 09:46 .


#449
silverexile17s

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Oh, is this not a serious thread? My mistake. Carry on, then.


It's a serious thread disguised as a non-serious thread... or is it the other way around?  Whichever, pick a side and go all-in.Image IPB


KiwiQuiche wrote...

Just put your whole ****ing sentence in the damn title.

But yes, the end is stupid.


Was kinda running out of room there...  But what, you don't like cliffhangers?Image IPB


Not at the end of a damn trilogy I don't.

Well, they don't intend to give any exposition -- according to the devs, they want to make a spin-off, or side-quel to the trilogy.
Mac Walters says his top pick for protagonest of the next game is Kai Leng.

.....yeah, take from that what you will.

#450
Mr. Gogeta34

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silverexile17s wrote...
No, we aren't "Almost there." Otherwise, this would have ended a long time ago.

Any New Solution will do, as long as it offers a resolution to the conflcit. Shepard's judgement is basically the defining element in this. Any Solution will do -- provided it's possible. Here at the end of all things, what you see is what you get with the ending choices.


"Almost there" references a future event, not the past.  This is not debatable, lol.


//cough//
So... why does the Catalyst yield the choice to Shepard?  He's obligated to do this in his programming right? 

Why is the Catalyst referenced at around the end of the Crucible's completion?