540 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Also, isn't Control essentially the Catalyst "acting" like Shepard? I wonder how that works...

More like the catalyst was deleted, and a copy of shepard was placed in control of the reapers. Sort of like quantum teleportation, where in order to actually teleport anywhere, a copy is made of your atoms and particles, and sent to a location, and the original is destroyed.

Essentially, the copy is the only shepard that exist now, making him shepard.

[christrek1982]

the fact that victory is just handed to you rather than earned is just another thing that take away from the endings I have no idea why star child lets you do any of the stuff in the end it's not like you have the upper hand at that point (As show by refuse) so the only thing that I can come up with is that he lets you win I just don't get why.

Modifié par christrek1982, 22 décembre 2012 - 10:03 .

[Armass81]

Permission? He doesnt like destroy or control options, he clearly says it when Synthesis is not available. "The crucible changed me, created new...possibilities. But I cant make them happen. And I wont."

He explains you the options you have but you get to choose.

Modifié par Armass81, 22 décembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[Maxster_]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."

It is art. And it is perfect

Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

Crucible is nonsense and can not exist. It can not be designed, it can not be built. It just is.

[Maxster_]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

He says any solution is preferrable to the Reapers. Apparantly they were a holding pattern designed to keep the galaxy stable and ticking over while waiting for a proper one to emerge. He doesn't like Destroy because it's clearly a temporary solution, but again any solution is better than another bloody pointless Reaper cycle. Control is neutral on because that's just giving the keys to the original solution over to someone else and see if they can do a better job with it, and Synthesis is kind of the 'cutting the knot' approach to his impossible query: since organics and synthetics can't co-exist, let's just get rid of both ideas and make everybody organic AND synthetic.

Yeah, flawed machine logic at it's finest, but if it makes the Reapers give up and let's everybody pick up radio transmissions in their fillings then who's to argue?

Apparently this isn't the case since just telling them to go away or what have you simply isn't an option, even though he says he wants a new solution.

Because ME3 is a story about unconditional surrender to an insane entity.

[SpamBot2000]

Maxster_ wrote...

Because ME3 is a story about unconditional surrender to an insane entity.

That is correct. 

[LTKerr]

What do you expect from bad writing and a deus ex machina? They don't make any sense.

[Kel Riever]

"Making sense."

We have dismissed that claim.

[NeroonWilliams]

This thread has honestly gotten me thinking that the biggest mistake in the writing of the ending is a single pronoun. The AI says "I am the Catalyst." I really think it all makes more sense if he had told Shepard "YOU are the Catalyst." By definition a catalyst is an object or compound that enables a reaction to take place. I actually believed that Shepard would be revealed to be the Catalyst early in ME3's narrative. Even without being named as such, Shepard IS the catalyst that brings about the end of the Reaper cycle. Only he/she can bring it about.

The ending is a surrender all right, it's a surrender along the lines of the Battle of the Line in Babylon 5. A superior force surrenders while on the brink of total victory because it learns of a shocking truth about its weaker opponent.

[MegaSovereign]

God kid himself begs to differ. "The citadel is part of me." If the crucible is nothing but a power source, then that brings into question where did these three options even come from. The only answer that can be concluded is that god kid came up with them.

No it's not. That doesn't even make any sense. It's in the narrative that the early Crucible prototypes didn't use the Citadel. So at the very least, the Destroy functionality is there by default.

Using the Reaper's own technology against them is not the same thing as asking permission. The Catalyst's words about how the Crucible is "little more than a power source" does not indicate that it's just a big freaking battery. Targeting is done through the Citadel, as that is the main hub of the Mass Relay network. That doesn't mean the Catalyst built those 3 choices on the 11th hour as soon as the Crucible docked.

The future cycle winning doesn't really matter much to me seeing as we don't know what happened, what choices were given, or even if there were more or fewer choices. I'm not saying anything is wrong with god kid being okay with the cycle ending. It's the fact that he is willing to allow the destruction of the reapers that doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't matter to you but the narrative implication is there. He's willing to allow the destruction of the Reapers because he knows that the Reapers losing is inevitable. In its eyes it's the worst solution but presents it anyways in case the other two choices are unacceptable to Shepard.

[Alex_Dur4and]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

It's funny that you mention this!

It makes sense that the crucible is of reaper design because it is created to interact with reaper tech; the citadel and the mass relays.

So, if the citadel and the relays are reaper tech, this means A LOT OF INDOCTRINATED people. However, the proteans (by unexplainable means) have managed to sever the link between the citadel and the reapers, making them independant. But then, Sovereign reestablished the link to call the reapers again.

Shepard was warned! The citadel is a trap. The relays are reaper tech. This means that it is quite possible that the whole population that came in contact with these constructs could be potential indoctrinated agents!

Oh no!!! I just broke Mass Effect!!!

[AlanC9]

MegaSovereign wrote...

No it's not. That doesn't even make any sense. It's in the narrative that the early Crucible prototypes didn't use the Citadel. So at the very least, the Destroy functionality is there by default.

Where is that said, anyway?

[AlanC9]

 There's actually some SF precedent for a computer system permitting its own demise. I suppose the one that's most on point is Jack Chalker's series The Rings of the Master; upcoming spoilers, obviously. Humanity's been enslaved by a computer system that has reshaped all human societies  (and some aliens) for maximum survivability. This includes precluding challenges to its rule, so most humans have been regressed to pre-1600 technology. However, the machine has a reset system which will deactivate it if the five key rings can be brought to its central control nexus and used in the proper fashion. The computer's programming does not permit it to destroy or hide the rings; they must be n the possession of humans with authority; nor can it make using the rings impossible. However, it can make using the rings very, very difficult.

Chalker plays this straight, in a way that I think might have worked for Bio. Eventually the characters realize that they will be permitted to use the rings; all they have to do is find the ways that Master System must leave available to them. You could say that they know they're in an RPG, and so they know there is a way to win it. (Though they don't have the ability to save and reload, so it's not quite that easy).

See also Teela Brown's death in Larry Niven's The Ringworld Engineers. Not an AI, but she might as well be since a protector has virtually no free will

[MegaSovereign]

AlanC9 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

No it's not. That doesn't even make any sense. It's in the narrative that the early Crucible prototypes didn't use the Citadel. So at the very least, the Destroy functionality is there by default.

Where is that said, anyway?

Prothean VI during the Cerberus Base mission. When he reveals that the Catalyst is the Citadel you can pick the investigate dialogue. He tells you that originally the Citadel was not part of the Crucible's design. However the Crucible was not suffiently powerful enough to destroy the Reapers, so the Citadel was included as part of the design in later cycles.

[Dr_Extrem]

if the catalyst is shackled by being connected to the catalyst ...

how were those shackles designed? ... nobody knew of the ai, before shepard met it in person. there is no clue - even after leviathan - that the catalyst is the ai. our information (from vendetta) is clear. the citadel is the catalyst. vendetta has no clue, that the catalyst is an ai.

vendetta knows the crucibles plans - he was designed as the protheans addition to the battery. did some other cycle find out about the catalysts true nature, added shacklesd to the plans and did not tell the following cycles about it? can this be considered as a bad joke? ... just like the rotor?

this would have been the most important information ever for the following cycle: "the catalyst is an ai, who controls the reapers and it "lives" on the citadel."


my conclusion is, that the catalyst presents us its own options - it was just not able to realise them, because it did not have the crucible as an energy source.

it makes no sense .. but the endings make no sense either.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 22 décembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[Iakus]

Armass81 wrote...

Permission? He doesnt like destroy or control options, he clearly says it when Synthesis is not available. "The crucible changed me, created new...possibilities. But I cant make them happen. And I wont."

He explains you the options you have but you get to choose.

He brings Shepard up to the Crucible and explains exactly how to use it when he could have just let Shepard bleed out on the floor.

Just because the Catalyst doesn't like  an option doesn't mean he didn't essentially say "Okay, it's your funeral.  Shoot that pipe over there to turn it on"

[Samtheman63]

he doesnt want you to destroy, he says it wont work

indoctrinated people want control, catalyst wants synthesis

thats why you pick destroy

[Arisugawa]

JPN17 wrote...

That still doesn't explain why it would allow Shepard to destroy billions of years of preservation. Also the crucible needs god kid to work. As it stated, "The device you refer to as the crucible is little more than a power source." The only reason Shepard even had a chance to choose was because god kid itself brought him/her up there, to a room organics had never made it to. All it had to do was let Shepard bleed out and that's that. It doesn't matter how advanced of a crucible the galaxy makes if they can't activate it.

The "room" you're describing is nothing more than the undersurface of the Presidium Tower. They are standing on the exterior of the tower, directly below (or above, depending on your perception) the Crucible itself. At some point, an organic HAD to be standing there, if nothing else than to help in the repair of the Presidium Tower after Sovereign's attack.

I don't think that the Catalyst intends "here" to mean the location so much as simply the fact that an organic is conversing with it.

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Crucible doesn't need the "god kid" to work. It needed the Citadel since it is the hub of the relay network.

The next cycle wins even if the current one does not activate the Crucible. Winning one more cycle wouldn't have mattered much to the Catalyst. It's best hope was to convince Shepard to compromise with Synthesis, hence why it's mad if your EMS is too low.

Well...I don't know about that. Defeat this cycle, then modify the Citadel and/or the relay network so a Crucible-style device would not work in the future. It is, after all, the technology of the Catalyst and the Reapers. Modifying it, or putting some kind of failsafe on it, is not out of the question, considering what a vast amount of time must pass before the Citadel and the relays are discovered by the next cycle.

You don't have to destroy the next cycle's ability to create the Crucible, you just have to prevent its use. Failing that, you can simply destroy the Citadel and create something similar, but incompatible in its place.

The idea that the Catalyst viewed the situation and determined that the use of the Crucible was the only viable option is flawed, in my opinion.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 22 décembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[JPN17]

MegaSovereign wrote...

God kid himself begs to differ. "The citadel is part of me." If the crucible is nothing but a power source, then that brings into question where did these three options even come from. The only answer that can be concluded is that god kid came up with them.

No it's not. That doesn't even make any sense. It's in the narrative that the early Crucible prototypes didn't use the Citadel. So at the very least, the Destroy functionality is there by default.

Using the Reaper's own technology against them is not the same thing as asking permission. The Catalyst's words about how the Crucible is "little more than a power source" does not indicate that it's just a big freaking battery. Targeting is done through the Citadel, as that is the main hub of the Mass Relay network. That doesn't mean the Catalyst built those 3 choices on the 11th hour as soon as the Crucible docked.

The future cycle winning doesn't really matter much to me seeing as we don't know what happened, what choices were given, or even if there were more or fewer choices. I'm not saying anything is wrong with god kid being okay with the cycle ending. It's the fact that he is willing to allow the destruction of the reapers that doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't matter to you but the narrative implication is there. He's willing to allow the destruction of the Reapers because he knows that the Reapers losing is inevitable. In its eyes it's the worst solution but presents it anyways in case the other two choices are unacceptable to Shepard.

So how could these choices be built into the crucible if it's nothing but a power source? You're talking about all this stuff the crucible can do, but the in game explanation of the crucible completely contradicts you. All pervious crucible attempts without using the catalyst failed. Hmm, well imagine that. Maybe it's because god kid was needed after all. Even in game with the crucible hooked up to the citadel it still doesn't work until god kid allows shepard to choose a choice. Again, there's nothing in game to suggest that these three options come from the crucible itself. Any suggestion on your part that there is is just headcanon. Your headcanon is not series canon, sorry.

I don't care about the narrative implication. You're trying to create an agument to rebut something I'm not arguing against. If god kid is so worried that organics will be able to destroy the reapers (keeping in mind he has to assist them to do it) then he could tell the reapers to flee. Problem fixed. The cycle is over AND billions of years of galactic civilization stay preserved. Or he could come up with a way to keep the knowledge of all the reapers contained in something like the geth were trying to build and then destroy the shells. Again problem solved. Given the catalyst's programming there is no way it would allow all that to be destroyed, none. It completely goes against what it's supposed to do.

[JPN17]

Arisugawa wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

That still doesn't explain why it would allow Shepard to destroy billions of years of preservation. Also the crucible needs god kid to work. As it stated, "The device you refer to as the crucible is little more than a power source." The only reason Shepard even had a chance to choose was because god kid itself brought him/her up there, to a room organics had never made it to. All it had to do was let Shepard bleed out and that's that. It doesn't matter how advanced of a crucible the galaxy makes if they can't activate it.

The "room" you're describing is nothing more than the undersurface of the Presidium Tower. They are standing on the exterior of the tower, directly below (or above, depending on your perception) the Crucible itself. At some point, an organic HAD to be standing there, if nothing else than to help in the repair of the Presidium Tower after Sovereign's attack.

I don't think that the Catalyst intends "here" to mean the location so much as simply the fact that an organic is conversing with it.

Maybe, but if that's the case the wording is very poor. He doesn't say that Shepard is the first human to talk to it, or part of the first cycle that was able to get the crucible to the citadel he says, "the fact you are standing here, the first organic proves it." To me that would imply he's the first organic to be in that location.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

What I still also don't quite understand is:

Assuming no Reaper involvement, how was the Crucible even built to do what it did? Vigil also apparently had no knowledge of the Catalyst's existence.

Couldn't whoever had initially designed the Crucible have easily developed a program/virus to force the Catalyst to deactivate the Reapers and power down? There was really no need to destroy the relays etc. in order to achieve this outcome.

... all the more evidence to suggest that the Crucible is of Reaper origin... (which would make no sense in the narrative)

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Any new insights into this?

Those that loved the endings (or feel nothing's wrong with them)...  we are in need of enlightenment.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juillet 2013 - 01:37 .

[Wolfva2]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

What makes you think he's okay with either destroy or control? He basically says he hates them but that it's what the options do.

He's okay with it because he presents the options to Shepard.  If those options weren't presented by the Reaper leader, Shepard would still be sleeping on the lower floor.  Additionally, if you shoot at the Catalyst, he says "Screw it, you all die" (in so many words, lol)... so it's not some kind of code-based obligation in his programming... it's just his whim.

Ok.  Go bring up the dos command line for your computer.  Type 'c:\\\\reformat' (or whatever that code is, been awhile).  Now, do you think your computer WANTS to be reformatted?  Probably not.  If it could think.  But it will do it anyways.  Know why?  IT"S A COMPUTER!!!!  IT FOLLOWS IT"S PROGRAMMING!!!  Well, so is the Catalyst.  It's just a computer program, albeit one with virtual intelligence.  It does what it's told regardless fo what it wants.

Gogeta is right; Those are the options you have.  In ANY encounter with an enemy, you only have 4 options.
1) Conquer  (control, destroy fits this)
2) Lose  (refuse-in which case you die, she dies, everyone dies)
3) Hide (not viable as they'd just hunt you down...besides, Shep ain't a runner)
4)  Join (synthesis)

I've gone over this multiple times, and NO ONE has yet shown any other possible choices.  Everyone is so busy kvetching about the Catalyst and his choices...they're not HIS choices.  They are the NATURAL choices that you have in any encounter.  It's just telling you how to access those choices with the Crucible.  The crucible/citadel combined is just a big gun that fires a beam of energy; you decide what that beam will do. 

[Sovereign330]

Options of the Crucible, not the Catalyst.