540 réponses à ce sujet

[YourFleshIsMine]

I just finished ME3 today and after reading some of the comments here I wonder if I played the same game lol.

When Shepard meets the crucible (the child form), the story is completed because Shepard broke the cycle. Now the crucible is not the leader of the reapers. I think it helps if you played through Leviathan but the Reapers just fulfilled a purpose and where allowed to do so. Because of what Shepard achieved, the Reapers basically outlived their function unexpectedly. Therefore it was handed to Shepard to decide how the cycle was to be ended.

The idea behind the cycle was that organics create machines that would end up killing them and to prevent that from happening the machines were used for harvesting to preserve organic life. This is the need they served. Shepard actually beat the machines which was unexpected and as such it was proven that the machines could be beaten by organics and don't face this assumed inevitable end of organic life.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

The 3 options were not secretly Reaper plans. Shepard was not working for the Reapers. To the crucible, the reapers are lesser race that serves a purpose and Shepard made them fail their purpose. That's what I got out of it.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

I just finished ME3 today and after reading some of the comments here I wonder if I played the same game lol.

When Shepard meets the crucible (the child form), the story is completed because Shepard broke the cycle. Now the crucible is not the leader of the reapers. I think it helps if you played through Leviathan but the Reapers just fulfilled a purpose and where allowed to do so. Because of what Shepard achieved, the Reapers basically outlived their function unexpectedly. Therefore it was handed to Shepard to decide how the cycle was to be ended.

The cycle is not broken with the docking of the Crucible, the Crucible can still be destroyed (and Shepard can refuse to use it entirely).

The Catalyst is required for the Crucible to work (apparently) and The Catalyst controls the Reapers.  In order to use the Crucible, apparently you need the leader of the Reapers in order to do it.

[Br3admax]

No, The Leviathans did not "let" the Reapers do anything. If you listen, the Catalyst performed its responsibilities by killing a lot of Leviathans so they hid underwater to escape extinction. The Catalyst is in fact the leader of the Reapers and their collective intelligence. It follows parameters, but not on anybody's whim. Not anymore anyway.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Br3ad wrote...

No, The Leviathans did not "let" the Reapers do anything. If you listen, the Catalyst performed its responsibilities by killing a lot of Leviathans so they hid underwater to escape extinction. The Catalyst is in fact the leader of the Reapers and their collective intelligence. It follows parameters, but not on anybody's whim. Not anymore anyway.

The Catalyst makes its own decisions in how to tackle an objective (or throws its objective out all together to let Shepard do what he wants with the Crucible).. depends on how The Catalyst feels at the time really.

[Wolfva2]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

I just finished ME3 today and after reading some of the comments here I wonder if I played the same game lol.

When Shepard meets the crucible (the child form), the story is completed because Shepard broke the cycle. Now the crucible is not the leader of the reapers. I think it helps if you played through Leviathan but the Reapers just fulfilled a purpose and where allowed to do so. Because of what Shepard achieved, the Reapers basically outlived their function unexpectedly. Therefore it was handed to Shepard to decide how the cycle was to be ended.

The cycle is not broken with the docking of the Crucible, the Crucible can still be destroyed (and Shepard can refuse to use it entirely).

The Catalyst is required for the Crucible to work (apparently) and The Catalyst controls the Reapers.  In order to use the Crucible, apparently you need the leader of the Reapers in order to do it.

It's a computer program that runs the Reapers.  It's not a sentient dictator who 'controls' them; ordering them to fulfill goals and such. 

Saying it controls the reapers is like saying the code that runs your calculator controls mathmatics.

Nor does it 'feel'.  It's a program.  It does what it was programmed to do.  Stop anthromorphosizing it.  Although, considering they just HAD to give it a kid's avatar, I can see how it's hard not to.

Modifié par Wolfva2, 03 septembre 2013 - 02:01 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

I just finished ME3 today and after reading some of the comments here I wonder if I played the same game lol.

When Shepard meets the crucible (the child form), the story is completed because Shepard broke the cycle. Now the crucible is not the leader of the reapers. I think it helps if you played through Leviathan but the Reapers just fulfilled a purpose and where allowed to do so. Because of what Shepard achieved, the Reapers basically outlived their function unexpectedly. Therefore it was handed to Shepard to decide how the cycle was to be ended.

The cycle is not broken with the docking of the Crucible, the Crucible can still be destroyed (and Shepard can refuse to use it entirely).

The Catalyst is required for the Crucible to work (apparently) and The Catalyst controls the Reapers.  In order to use the Crucible, apparently you need the leader of the Reapers in order to do it.

It's a computer program that runs the Reapers.  It's not a sentient dictator who 'controls' them; ordering them to fulfill goals and such. 

Saying it controls the reapers is like saying the code that runs your calculator controls mathmatics.

Nor does it 'feel'.  It's a program.  It does what it was programmed to do.  Stop anthromorphosizing it.  Although, considering they just HAD to give it a kid's avatar, I can see how it's hard not to.

The Reapers themselves are the Catalyst's idea... his solution.  The Reapers didn't exist before the Catalyst.

"The Reapers are mine.  I control them.  They are my solution." - Catalyst

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 septembre 2013 - 02:08 .

[YourFleshIsMine]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

I just finished ME3 today and after reading some of the comments here I wonder if I played the same game lol.

When Shepard meets the crucible (the child form), the story is completed because Shepard broke the cycle. Now the crucible is not the leader of the reapers. I think it helps if you played through Leviathan but the Reapers just fulfilled a purpose and where allowed to do so. Because of what Shepard achieved, the Reapers basically outlived their function unexpectedly. Therefore it was handed to Shepard to decide how the cycle was to be ended.

The cycle is not broken with the docking of the Crucible, the Crucible can still be destroyed (and Shepard can refuse to use it entirely).

The Catalyst is required for the Crucible to work (apparently) and The Catalyst controls the Reapers.  In order to use the Crucible, apparently you need the leader of the Reapers in order to do it.

It's a computer program that runs the Reapers.  It's not a sentient dictator who 'controls' them; ordering them to fulfill goals and such. 

Saying it controls the reapers is like saying the code that runs your calculator controls mathmatics.

Nor does it 'feel'.  It's a program.  It does what it was programmed to do.  Stop anthromorphosizing it.  Although, considering they just HAD to give it a kid's avatar, I can see how it's hard not to.

The Reapers themselves are the Catalyst's idea... his solution.  The Reapers didn't exist before the Catalyst.

"The Reapers are mine.  I control them.  They are my solution." - Catalyst

Yep a solution to a perceived problem. Leviathan also said something similar although I don't have the direct quote. He spoke of a need that they fulfilled.

The way I see it is that by making it to citadel in the end Shepard proved that the machines (reapers) could be destroyed by organics. This made the cycle a failure because the parameters did not include organics actually being able to beat them. The fact that at that moment the button hadn't been pushed yet doesn't change that. Shepard proved it was possible. Therefore, because there were new parameters, new possibilities the harvesting cycls no longer were the correct solution. Shepard's actions proved to be a variable that had not been calculated into the equation, therefore making the equation faulty and needing revising. As Shepard was able to break the equation, it was left to Shepard to rewrite it, including himself/herself into the parameters. Hence a choice.

[dorktainian]

The Catalyst is Shepard

Starjar is not the catalyst - even tho it says it is. The three answers are a test. Thats my take on it anyway. Choose. If you choose correctly then you wake up.

Fail and you're no good to them. Whos them? Leviathan.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

dorktainian wrote...

The Catalyst is Shepard

Starjar is not the catalyst - even tho it says it is. The three answers are a test. Thats my take on it anyway. Choose. If you choose correctly then you wake up.

Fail and you're no good to them. Whos them? Leviathan.

What would that test be for?

[Turbo_J]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

The Catalyst is Shepard

Starjar is not the catalyst - even tho it says it is. The three answers are a test. Thats my take on it anyway. Choose. If you choose correctly then you wake up.

Fail and you're no good to them. Whos them? Leviathan.

What would that test be for?

Leviathan gave you/Shepard the answer to that question themselves... 'the Reapers fear you, and I must understand why.'
 
it then goes on to say - 'you are an anomaly, but that is not enough...'

Shepard may be a Catalist, but it's unknown for what, exactly.

Sha'Ira (This may be what you are now, but it is not what you will become.)

Truth is only one Reaper ever came close to Shep (or Shep only got close to one if you want to look at it that way) and that was Sovereign. Look at how Saren reacts to Shepard using the beacon on Eden Prime in ME1... find the cut scene on youtube... look at that video carfully. Saren is fully reflecting Sov's reaction to the news from Benezia. In game, we never once interacted with 'this' Saren' beyond the holo in the council chambers. Look at him during the cut scene where he kills Nilus - he's already 'modified' - something the 'Saren' we face on the Citadel claims happend after Virmire.

That ME1 prolog cut scene conveys two things;

- Saren IS Sovereign. Sov assumed direct control long ago.
- Sovereign is 'afraid' of Shepard and is evidently pretty pissed off, however, it does not react by seaking them out to destroy them. It continues to do whatever it was doing. Whatever that is, it's a priority over whatever Shep may find out.

'You bring only death!'

Too bad Sov. didn't know Shep was the key to tracing Levi, even from within an illusion.

Given the fact that we find there was a fully working beacon with all the info available on Virmire, there would have been no need for Saren/Sov to seak out another one. The Reaper may have been looking for a 'conduit' but it's got nothing to do with Ilos or the Citadel or Virmire for that matter. Bringing the Reapers back is not their goal. It's a Red Herring. Sovereign is not looking for a way to open the Citadel. It's looking for Leviathan.

[Br3admax]

That makes no sense at all. Saren cannot be Sovereign at that point, because then the shields would have gone down immediately. Also, at this point, Sovereign had no reason to fear Shepard as really all Shepard has done is hunt down Saren, which pretty much anyone can do. Saren was indoctrinated, but he was by no means being forcibly used as Sovereign's avatar.

[fr33stylez]

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

I just finished ME3 today and after reading some of the comments here I wonder if I played the same game lol.

When Shepard meets the crucible (the child form), the story is completed because Shepard broke the cycle. Now the crucible is not the leader of the reapers. I think it helps if you played through Leviathan but the Reapers just fulfilled a purpose and where allowed to do so. Because of what Shepard achieved, the Reapers basically outlived their function unexpectedly. Therefore it was handed to Shepard to decide how the cycle was to be ended.

The cycle is not broken with the docking of the Crucible, the Crucible can still be destroyed (and Shepard can refuse to use it entirely).

The Catalyst is required for the Crucible to work (apparently) and The Catalyst controls the Reapers.  In order to use the Crucible, apparently you need the leader of the Reapers in order to do it.

It's a computer program that runs the Reapers.  It's not a sentient dictator who 'controls' them; ordering them to fulfill goals and such. 

Saying it controls the reapers is like saying the code that runs your calculator controls mathmatics.

Nor does it 'feel'.  It's a program.  It does what it was programmed to do.  Stop anthromorphosizing it.  Although, considering they just HAD to give it a kid's avatar, I can see how it's hard not to.

The Reapers themselves are the Catalyst's idea... his solution.  The Reapers didn't exist before the Catalyst.

"The Reapers are mine.  I control them.  They are my solution." - Catalyst

Yep a solution to a perceived problem. Leviathan also said something similar although I don't have the direct quote. He spoke of a need that they fulfilled.

The way I see it is that by making it to citadel in the end Shepard proved that the machines (reapers) could be destroyed by organics. This made the cycle a failure because the parameters did not include organics actually being able to beat them. The fact that at that moment the button hadn't been pushed yet doesn't change that. Shepard proved it was possible. Therefore, because there were new parameters, new possibilities the harvesting cycls no longer were the correct solution. Shepard's actions proved to be a variable that had not been calculated into the equation, therefore making the equation faulty and needing revising. As Shepard was able to break the equation, it was left to Shepard to rewrite it, including himself/herself into the parameters. Hence a choice.

How exactly is this proposed 'challenge' to see if organics can beat the Reapers have anything to do with the supposed tech singularity problem the Reapers are programmed to solve? Whether or not organics can actually beat the Reapers does nothing to solve the issue that Synthetics supposedly with destroy all organics if allowed to evolve. So why would the Reapers abandon its solution because they docked the Crucible? Why didn't the Reapers give up when they saw organics were even capable of building the Crucible? Why go out of your way to sabotage the Cruicble for millions of years rather than just letting it be used to solve the singularity problem? 

Why would the Catalyst then continue the cycle if Shepard says no or shoots its hologram? Why not just let someone else come up? Why conntinue with the same solution for another 50K years you just said is now invalid?

Modifié par fr33stylez, 04 septembre 2013 - 08:47 .

[Turbo_J]

Br3ad wrote...

That makes no sense at all. Saren cannot be Sovereign at that point, because then the shields would have gone down immediately. Also, at this point, Sovereign had no reason to fear Shepard as really all Shepard has done is hunt down Saren, which pretty much anyone can do. Saren was indoctrinated, but he was by no means being forcibly used as Sovereign's avatar.

Just be patient, I'll paint a clear picture of what is happening in the next ep. of CW.

Shields coming down... I had no idea what the hell you were talking about at first, but then I figured it out. You are referencing something that happens at the end of ME1. Some 'game mechanic' that became lore to explains how a Reaper gets destroyed conventionally... the ADC - overload 'bug'.

It's bunk. Shep left reality long before this point and they are on the crazy train heading to the Crucible.

[Br3admax]

Game mechanic? No. It's completely lore because Shepard does take out his Lancer and begins shooting Sovereigns weak spots. I've heard some crazy IT and "out of reality" things but this just takes the cake.

[AlanC9]

Br3ad wrote...

 I've heard some crazy IT and "out of reality" things but this just takes the cake.

You haven't seen their videos yet.

Always wondered where the IT fans would go when IT collapsed. Now we know.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 septembre 2013 - 09:08 .

[johnj1979]

There is a lot of things in ME 3 that don't make a lot sense.

Why in a story that has a hero out saving the galaxy, making peace with factions at war with each other; do you then have to in order to save "some" life do you have to go against what you are fighting for?

The Crucible and the Catalyst are just one part of the problem. Then to makes matters worse you have DLC that further confusion to what is already a confusing story.

[Turbo_J]

Br3ad wrote...

Game mechanic? No. It's completely lore because Shepard does take out his Lancer and begins shooting Sovereigns weak spots. I've heard some crazy IT and "out of reality" things but this just takes the cake.

You should watch Choose Wisely Ep 4 then. It will mess with your mind.

All we are doing is looking at the story; lore (ME1), thematics, dialog and visuals in search of the Truth. It's not IT.

We knew long ago that some people could and would not possibly wrap their heads around what may be going on, but that's not why we created the series. We just wanted to show anyone who was interested our perspective. It's interesting watching some of the reactions if nothing else. It will be more interesting when and if BW ever follows up on it... Sovereign is still running around the galaxy after all. Can't let that go on forever.

[Turbo_J]

AlanC9 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

 I've heard some crazy IT and "out of reality" things but this just takes the cake.

You haven't seen their videos yet.

Always wondered where the IT fans would go when IT collapsed. Now we know.

I was around for a lot longer than IT. I tried to tell them they were wrong. I also predicted Levi was organic and they laughed me out of their thread. Who cares.

I seek the truth, nothing more.

[dorktainian]

even tho i agree with turbo J, i do still think that IT has some merit. It may be a bit confused - but thats down to the narrative being so far out, that nobody really got the ending at the time.

and yes i'm an ITer. crazy? nope. just looking for answers like everyone else.

Cant wait for episode 5 turbo J. bring it on. mindblowing.

[AlanC9]

Didn't mean you, TJ; you're sui generis. I'm thinking about folks like dorktanian, who need someplace to go now that IT has failed (it's nice of you to give them a home).

[dorktainian]

AlanC9 wrote...

Didn't mean you, TJ; you're sui generis. I'm thinking about folks like dorktanian, who need someplace to go now that IT has failed (it's nice of you to give them a home).

ha change the record dweeb.

[AlanC9]

Turbo_J wrote...
We knew long ago that some people could and would not possibly wrap their heads around what may be going on, but that's not why we created the series. We just wanted to show anyone who was interested our perspective. It's interesting watching some of the reactions if nothing else. It will be more interesting when and if BW ever follows up on it... Sovereign is still running around the galaxy after all. Can't let that go on forever.

Just to be clear -- this is your "perspective," or is this your understanding of the actual design intent? 

Put another way, do you think there's even one person at Bioware who actually thinks that Sovereign is still alive? 

[AlanC9]

dorktainian wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Didn't mean you, TJ; you're sui generis. I'm thinking about folks like dorktanian, who need someplace to go now that IT has failed (it's nice of you to give them a home).

ha change the record dweeb.

You guys keep posting your stuff. I keep being skeptical. Why should either of us change the record?

[dorktainian]

because you keep saying IT has failed. It's like the same thing over and over again. Shame because actually ITers have come up with more explanations for the ending than just IT. But hey we were booted off by an ex moderator. shame you couldnt read it.

speculations everywhere... but on BSN.  

Modifié par dorktainian, 04 septembre 2013 - 09:35 .

[NeonFlux117]

"Reapers"