540 réponses à ce sujet

[ShepnTali]

5) Negotiate?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Sovereign330 wrote...

Options of the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

The Crucible requires the Catalyst in order to work.  The Catalyst is not obligated to do them.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:20 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wolfva2 wrote...
Ok.  Go bring up the dos command line for your computer.  Type 'c:\\reformat' (or whatever that code is, been awhile).  Now, do you think your computer WANTS to be reformatted?  Probably not.  If it could think.  But it will do it anyways.  Know why?  IT"S A COMPUTER!!!!  IT FOLLOWS IT"S PROGRAMMING!!!  Well, so is the Catalyst.  It's just a computer program, albeit one with virtual intelligence.  It does what it's told regardless fo what it wants.

My computer is not an AI and could care less whether its reformatted or not.  The Catalyst is an AI, so you're using an incompatible example.  I'd only reformat if the computer was acting sluggish, so if my computer could think and is self-aware... it would probably welcome surgery in order to enhance its performance (the Geth enjoyed the Reaper's enhancements after all).

The Catalyst can disregard the crucible all-together on a whim (oh look, a human made an outburst of frustration by shooting my holographic image, screw the crucible then) and is even actively destroying it while he and Shepard converse (the crucible will be destroyed if Shepard takes too long to make a choice).

Gogeta is right; Those are the options you have.  In ANY encounter with an enemy, you only have 4 options.
1) Conquer  (control, destroy fits this)
2) Lose  (refuse-in which case you die, she dies, everyone dies)
3) Hide (not viable as they'd just hunt you down...besides, Shep ain't a runner)
4)  Join (synthesis)

I've gone over this multiple times, and NO ONE has yet shown any other possible choices.  Everyone is so busy kvetching about the Catalyst and his choices...they're not HIS choices.  They are the NATURAL choices that you have in any encounter.  It's just telling you how to access those choices with the Crucible.  The crucible/citadel combined is just a big gun that fires a beam of energy; you decide what that beam will do. 

- Here's another possible choice:

The Catalyst commands the Reapers to stand down, open a dialogue with the existing races and work with them to validate the need for a solution (and then a workable solution if necessary).  

aka, Cooperate/Negotiate (You don't join them, they don't join you... and you don't go for some pre-made solution... you sit down and make a new one).  That said, the only good Reaper is a dead Reaper.

Example new solution outcome:  Catalyst and Reapers stand down/surrender/destroyed/repurposed/rendered obsolete.  Keep the threat of rampant sentient technology in the collective consciousness of the galaxy through schools, ads, and media.  The message of not making race-killing machines could become just as common as a spoken language or the name of basic colors in the Mass Effect world. 

I've gone over this multiple times, and NO ONE has yet shown any other possible choices.

ShepnTali wrote...

5) Negotiate?

Should've asked me or ShepnTali sooner

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juillet 2013 - 05:06 .

[Wolfva2]

ShepnTali wrote...

5) Negotiate?

<Angrily shakes fist>  Curse you ShepnTali!  CURSE YOUUUUU!  <LOL>

Ok, I forgot that one.  Negotiate is a viable choice.  I'm pretty sure it's the only one I forgot, and I'll claim it's because my mind is focused on the reapers.  I mean, I could stretch it out to be included in 4) join but even I think that's a stretch.


They're not going to negotiate.  They consider the younger races to be worthy only of the harvest, and in fact consider them to be dangerous.  Since the Reapers were created to preserve Life, and the tech species are jeapordizing that with their blatant creation of synthetics which, according to the Reaper's, will always attempt to extinquish ALL life. 

Gogeta, the Catalyst is not a totalatarian dictator who is open to negotiation with equals.  It's a computer program which is designed to formulate a solution to the perceived problem of synthetics always trying to extinquish all life.  Up until the Crucible meted with the Citadel, it did not see any other options.  Once that happened, it realized, with the influx of new data, that it's solution was no longer workable and thus a new decision had to be made.  It's programming did not allow it to make it's own decision.  So.  Feel free to negotiate with a computer program that can't negotiate.

As far as your tearing apart of my analogy...well, D'UH!  Did you expect a perfect, flawless analogy?  They don't exist.  They're designed to offer a different comparison so you can go, "Huh, ok.  I can see how that might be different."  Unless, of course, you're so wed to your opinion your mind is shut tight like a blast door in which case you can nitpick it apart.  It's actually a pretty poor way to make an argument, but still like 'em.

[ShepnTali]

Yeah, I honestly don't see negotiation as a reasonable expectation in this case. This Is the fast food joint not serving breakfast at 10:00, even though they were at 9:59, because rules are rules, and that's what the crackly voiced kid behind the counter is programmed to follow.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Gogeta, the Catalyst is not a totalatarian dictator who is open to negotiation with equals.  It's a computer program which is designed to formulate a solution to the perceived problem of synthetics always trying to extinquish all life.  Up until the Crucible meted with the Citadel, it did not see any other options.  Once that happened, it realized, with the influx of new data, that it's solution was no longer workable and thus a new decision had to be made.  It's programming did not allow it to make it's own decision.  So.  Feel free to negotiate with a computer program that can't negotiate.

Depends on your definition of "Negotiate."  The Catalyst is the ultimate voice of the Reapers.  As history has taught us about them, they've made deals with synthetics and organics to serve their own purposes (power/resources in exchange for loyalty).  That counts as negotiation in my book... even if it was a set up for betrayal.

That said, it's also very clear that Reapers don't respect organics either and use them as tools, pawns, and resources only.  They run experiments and repurpose organics to suit their purposes.  They belittle organics regularly and massacre them by the planet-full.  I'd say that's pretty totalitarian, evil, and more complex than "a computer program which was designed to formulate a solution to the perceived problem of synthetics always trying to extinguish all life".  The Reaper's disdain for organics is generally irrelevant to the 'computer program design' of preserving organic life from homicidal synthetics.  And on top of that, it's only some organic life that the Reapers spare (the species they deem to be the best of that cycle are the only ones to survive, the others go extinct). 

As for the Catalyst, which has ultimate power over the Reapers and can disregard the Crucible on a whim... and has taken a 'my way or the high-way' attitude with the options it presents you, being a dictator fits like a glove.

"Negotiate" could happen, but in a different way.  The Catalyst would have to see the new solution as viable.  The events of the Mass Effect series could've served as compelling evidence..  


The Catalyst didn't see other options because it didn't want to see other options.  It entertained "new... possibilities" only on a whim that it could easily discard at a moment's notice (on a whim). 

As far as your tearing apart of my analogy...well, D'UH!  Did you expect a perfect, flawless analogy?  They don't exist.  They're designed to offer a different comparison so you can go, "Huh, ok.  I can see how that might be different."  Unless, of course, you're so wed to your opinion your mind is shut tight like a blast door in which case you can nitpick it apart.  It's actually a pretty poor way to make an argument, but still like 'em.

It wasn't a nitpick, and I understood what you were getting at.  I was saying it was incompatible because machines seek advancement as well as organics.  A reformat is totally different from total destruction (In ME3, the Destroy ending, which the Catalyst was the most vocally against).  You were comparing an increase in performance to an end of performance.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:29 .

[SpamBot2000]

Yeah, makes no sense at all. "Bu- but the Croocible forces these solutions on the glowy child!" No it doesn't. Just shoot at it and see how it's "forced" to do any damn thing. It volunteers these choices, even Destroy. And anyone following the instructions is metagaming "Ah, this is the endgame button" or roleplaying a freaking moron.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:35 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

See it's our mistake for not trying to find this "AI" thing sooner. If we had looked for it and found it, we could have blown it up, perhaps. Then that would have changed the end game. No one would be controlling the reapers then. They wouldn't know what to do, in theory. It would be chaos.

Perhaps there would be a grudge match among the reapers. You reaped my species, I hate you. So I'm going to destroy you. And they start fighting among themselves. This gives us a chance to regroup, build more ships, better weapons, and stuff, and get ready to mop up the ones who are left over. In theory.

See?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:34 .

[Archonsg]

You guys are still trying to assign sense to the ending. There isn't any.
Bottom line the OP put his finger on the heart of the matter, that the player has NO agency whatever to achieve an "ending" without permission from the AI whom is in control of the reapers.

You didn't win on your own accord.
You "won" because your enemy allowed you to do so.
/shrugs
For some this is okay.
For myself, it stank as an option, the only option, after a 3 game series.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

See it's our mistake for not trying to find this "AI" thing sooner. If we had looked for it and found it, we could have blown it up, perhaps. Then that would have changed the end game. No one would be controlling the reapers then. They wouldn't know what to do, in theory. It would be chaos.

Perhaps there would be a grudge match among the reapers. You reaped my species, I hate you. So I'm going to destroy you. And they start fighting among themselves. This gives us a chance to regroup, build more ships, better weapons, and stuff, and get ready to mop up the ones who are left over. In theory.

See?

Okay. - that makes both tactial and practical sense. This thing is the avatar of all Reapers, right? So killing it should have the same effect as the megastructure attack did on the geth, or the Saren-Husk's death did on Sovergien -- it would be like a lobotomy to all Reapers. They would all be brain-dead, with shields down and weapons inpoerable. They would recover in time, but not anytime soon, and they would never be the same.
So - oaky. Kill the Catalyst, and you cripple the Reapers for good and compleatly even the odds.

....any idea how the hell we kill this thing, then?

Come to think of it, why wasn't THAT an ending option?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 juillet 2013 - 08:51 .

[David7204]

Because it's stupid.

[AlanC9]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And anyone following the instructions is metagaming "Ah, this is the endgame button" or roleplaying a freaking moron.

Or roleplaying a character who realizes that it doesn't matter what you do if the choices aren't real.

[David7204]

Or playing a character who's smart enough to realize the Catalyst has no reason to lie and thus his instructions can be trusted.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

See it's our mistake for not trying to find this "AI" thing sooner. If we had looked for it and found it, we could have blown it up, perhaps. Then that would have changed the end game. No one would be controlling the reapers then. They wouldn't know what to do, in theory. It would be chaos.

Or the Reapers would realize that the cycles don't do anything useful for the Reapers themselves, reduce all organics to a pre-technological state, and rule the galaxy forever.

Actually worse than Refuse, since this dooms everyone forever.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 juillet 2013 - 08:59 .

[Indy_S]

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And anyone following the instructions is metagaming "Ah, this is the endgame button" or roleplaying a freaking moron.

Or roleplaying a character who realizes that it doesn't matter what you do if the choices aren't real.

I agree with this. If there's nothing to lose, why not give the wheel a spin?

[Erez Kristal]

I greatly approve of this thread.

Which is why i made one very similar in design.

If the choices are presented by the catalyst, and the catalyst have no reason to present destroy or control.
Then it wouldnt make sense to pick destroy or control.

It make sense for the crucible to be a massive indoctrination device. the prothean cycle failed mostly due to incotrianted reaper agents.
Maybe all of this happened after they decided to fire off the crucible.

Modifié par erezike, 26 juillet 2013 - 09:10 .

[Erez Kristal]

David7204 wrote...

Or playing a character who's smart enough to realize the Catalyst has no reason to lie and thus his instructions can be trusted.

I would love to live in a world where everyone were always honest with each other.

It sure will cut those expenses on false advertising

[fchopin]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

And how do you know if the intelligence is changed and forced to give you the options whether the intelligence likes it or not?

[Tonymac]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

See it's our mistake for not trying to find this "AI" thing sooner. If we had looked for it and found it, we could have blown it up, perhaps. Then that would have changed the end game. No one would be controlling the reapers then. They wouldn't know what to do, in theory. It would be chaos.

Perhaps there would be a grudge match among the reapers. You reaped my species, I hate you. So I'm going to destroy you. And they start fighting among themselves. This gives us a chance to regroup, build more ships, better weapons, and stuff, and get ready to mop up the ones who are left over. In theory.

See?

Perhaps the Reapers should have just wiped out all organic life in the galaxy and gotten it over with, then I would not have had to sit through the terrible story that was ME3.

[Wolfva2]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

See it's our mistake for not trying to find this "AI" thing sooner. If we had looked for it and found it, we could have blown it up, perhaps. Then that would have changed the end game. No one would be controlling the reapers then. They wouldn't know what to do, in theory. It would be chaos.

Perhaps there would be a grudge match among the reapers. You reaped my species, I hate you. So I'm going to destroy you. And they start fighting among themselves. This gives us a chance to regroup, build more ships, better weapons, and stuff, and get ready to mop up the ones who are left over. In theory.

See?

Or, maybe they'd continue on their programmed path.   Heck, they could have had the crucible be a giant EMP that shorts out the AI causing the Reapers to go into shutdown mode.

Of course, we couldn't have looked for the AI earlier because we didn't know about it.  So...coulda woulda shoulda.

[Wolfva2]

erezike wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Or playing a character who's smart enough to realize the Catalyst has no reason to lie and thus his instructions can be trusted.

I would love to live in a world where everyone were always honest with each other.

It sure will cut those expenses on false advertising

You say that now...but when your wife walks up wearing a hideous dress a size to small and says, "Honey?  Does this dress make me look fat?"  You'll be HAPPY you can lie.

[Arcian]

JPN17 wrote...

If god kid hates destroy why would it even give it as an option? I mean really? How can its programming allow Shepard to destroy all the reapers when the god kid's sole reason for existing is galactic preservation? Make less than zero sense.

Logic and reason were discarded two games ago.

[David7204]

The entire point of the exchange is that the Catalyst is handing the choice over to Shepard. Including Destroy. It's really not that difficult to grasp.

[ShepnTali]

David7204 wrote...

Because it's stupid.

Not necessarily. Some people have imagination, and can use that imagination to shape, and build on concepts. It's true.

[David7204]

Having the Reapers shut down because Shepard shoots the Catalyst is stupid.