540 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Reorte wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

 It's also amusing how much agency people give the Catalyst.  As though he's the one in control of the situation, when he outright states the current situation is utterly out of his hands now.

People act like you're just doing what he wants, when the entire time he's telling you "What do you want?"

They act like he's dictating your choices.  When all he does is tell you what options you have (because without him how would you know what to do?)

If he's just there as an exposition dump and an instruction manual then that information should've been presented in a different way. When it comes out of the mouth / speakers / whatever of something claiming to be in charge of your enemy then you've got a rather bad mixture that's going to raise questions  - particularly when a lot of what he has to say seems to somewhat contradict itself. Like several other things it only really works if you stop pretending you're in the game and start thinking outside the game universe ("Right, this guy is just an exposition dump"). If your story does that then it's going to get people acting just like this towards it.

Even roleplaying it's not impossible to believe he lacks malicious intent.  Again, everytime someone tries to make the Catalyst look villainous, the question of "Then why did he bring you up to the platform in the first place?"  Always fails to get answered.  If he truly had an intent to mislead you or be in any way wicked, helping you at all flies in the face of that.

I never saw the Catalyst has a villain.  He was a proxy.  A mouthpiece.  His sole design at that stage of the game was to provide you clear information, which he does.  The EC turned him into a massive exposition dump, which I utterly disagree with.  Knowing what he is (an AI) doesn't change or influence my decision in the slighest.

[Reorte]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Reorte wrote...
If he's just there as an exposition dump and an instruction manual then that information should've been presented in a different way. When it comes out of the mouth / speakers / whatever of something claiming to be in charge of your enemy then you've got a rather bad mixture that's going to raise questions 

Well, many villains assume the role of info dump, mostly because it'd be difficult for the protag to obtain the information in another way. That applies in this case.

Still, I agree it needed to be presented much better.

The big difference between those villains is that they're not directly saying to the protagonist "Here, go ahead and defeat me." They're generally just super over confident and full of themselves so that you could well imagine that their last thought before being stopped by the hero is "Why couldn't I have kept my big mouth shut?" That makes a big difference on the impact of their exposition, but perhaps that's what you meant by the presentation. If it is that though it's a matter of presentation that changes it hugely, from "Rather unlikely but works" to "big glaring inconsistency".

[Reorte]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Even roleplaying it's not impossible to believe he lacks malicious intent.  Again, everytime someone tries to make the Catalyst look villainous, the question of "Then why did he bring you up to the platform in the first place?"  Always fails to get answered.  If he truly had an intent to mislead you or be in any way wicked, helping you at all flies in the face of that.

I never saw the Catalyst has a villain.  He was a proxy.  A mouthpiece.  His sole design at that stage of the game was to provide you clear information, which he does.  The EC turned him into a massive exposition dump, which I utterly disagree with.  Knowing what he is (an AI) doesn't change or influence my decision in the slighest.

IMO he works best if he's a VI, then it is possible that he's just laying out whatever is on the table but even  then you have to ask why he brought Shepard up, and just what his relation to the Reapers is. However that feels like I'm finding loopholes in his presentation to headcanon something in that makes a bit more sense than what was actually intended.

Whilst that works somewhat the "Why did he bring you up to the platform in the first place?" is a sticking point for every explanation of the Catalyst, no matter what his position.

***

How has an ending-related discussion turned into something interesting instead of a slanging match?

Modifié par Reorte, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:13 .

[RiouHotaru]

StreetMagic wrote...
Personally, I don't think it's even worth trying to deconstruct the Catalyst or calling it a villain. It's too much of a mess to acknowledge it and bother trying. It's easier to step outside of the game and aim my questions to the actual writers. I'm not interested in trying to find an "in character" understanding of where the Catalyst is coming from. I want to understand the developers instead. And why they wrote this in the first place. It bothers me on a conceptual level. Not necessarily in execution.

Now I'm curious.  What about him bothers you conceptually?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
Personally, I don't think it's even worth trying to deconstruct the Catalyst or calling it a villain. It's too much of a mess to acknowledge it and bother trying. It's easier to step outside of the game and aim my questions to the actual writers. I'm not interested in trying to find an "in character" understanding of where the Catalyst is coming from. I want to understand the developers instead. And why they wrote this in the first place. It bothers me on a conceptual level. Not necessarily in execution.

Now I'm curious.  What about him bothers you conceptually?

Actually, I'd rather just say the Catalyst is my enemy. I don't particularly care if he's a villain or not. Maybe I'm the actual villain.

He just cramps my style. That's bad enough for me.

The Reapers are like some guy you don't like who invites himself to your party and screws everything up. You just wanted it to be a normal day, a get together to B.S. or talk shop, have some drinks, or hell, maybe even fall in love.. but there's this guy who's smothering everyone, and completely oblivious that no one wants him around. He's making the whole setting about his antics. Sooner or later, I'm going to get tired of people like that and smash their faces in the wall. I want to have space of my own. I want to have time of my own. I want to do simple things with friends/family/or whoever without some random jackass intruding and insisting that he be a part of my life somehow.

Ridiculous example, but hope you get the point. The Catalyst is a villain for being so goddamn imposing and intrusive on everyone's lives. It thinks it's concerns matter so much that it will dictate everything everyone ever does and ever will do, and who lives or dies, and so on. To hell with that. There are a lot of religions in the world with gods like this too, but the thing is, they never show themselves. You don't see Zeus coming down and making life hard for everyone. No one can say whether these gods exist or not. They're merely a belief, and mostly irrelevant to day-to-day life. But the Reapers? They're everything a god is, but with the added bonus of being REAL (in the MEU). And that sucks.

This is an understatement.

You're having a huge party, like a wedding bash. You just got married. All your friends, relatives and their friends are there, and everyone is drinking and partying and having a good time getting drunk. You got maybe a thousand people there. Suddenly these guys show up with machine guns and start shooting people, and you got no way of stopping them. You've got a pistol and your bullets bounce off them. Then this kid walks up to you and tells you, that he controls them. You may have tried shooting him, but your bullets do nothing to him. He gives you three options. You can control them, but you die and become the kid; make everyone partly them and them partly everyone; or you can destroy them but that kills your new spouse. Or if you refuse to make any of those choices they'll kill everyone.

That's what the reapers are. You have no choice.

This is why I hope Walters buries this trilogy six feet under like it never happened and uses an alternate time line and an alternate MEU. I no longer want a sequel to it. I don't want a prequel, nor do I want a sidequel.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 26 juillet 2013 - 08:00 .

[Genetic Destiny]

xsdob wrote...

What makes you think he's okay with either destroy or control? He basically says he hates them but that it's what the options do.

I don't think he has a problem with Control. He said TIM was under his control, and considering how much he preached about it through the whole game, the catalyst's "I don't wanna be replaced by you" line is odd. 

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Still even with them scaled down they're impossible. The story is frakking stupid. Seriously, I hope Mac sees the light of day and writes the next installment that the whole trilogy was a tale told by an old man to his grandson, and that it was a series of sci-fi books he was reading.

I hope Mac sets the new story in a galaxy where the mass relays and the Citadel were built by the Protheans, and that the Protheans are still running their empire which spans about half of the galaxy. They are kind of bastards. Their empire is collapsing because of economic and political turmoil. Our current races exist. The quarians are suit free. There is non-Prothean controlled space. Some of our races control parts of it. Other parts of it are open. Leave the Shepard trilogy behind, and leave it dead and buried like it never happened. I am so good with this.

In the old trilogy, I wish that the 12 prothean scientists had discovered something on the Citadel other than simply delaying the cycle so we could stop Sovereign. They should have located a weakness ... something like maybe that the reapers actually were a networked intelligence perhaps, networked through a central hub somewhere on the Citadel and left some clues about this on the Citadel. They didn't have the materials to do anything about it, though. It would have given us a chance.

Problem is, even back with ME1, the Reapers were overpowered. Sovergein was proof of that.
To be honest, I never expected this story to have any form of happy ending, or any form of ending that wasn't phyrric in one way or another.  Although, I didn't expect it to be totally soul-crushing.

Also, that is highly unlikely -- they've already teased Garrus as a PC in any future installment, and have made it clear that any future game will be either a prequal or sidequal. Then possibly a full sequal if the former work out well. And no reboots, as they believe it would be a "cop-out" to just dump a story after all the work that went into it. So, sadly, reboots are confirmed as never going to be on the board for future ME titles.
And Mac is confirmed as continued lead developer for anything to do with ME -- heading up the latest comic series in the mythos - Mass Effect: Foundation.
Issue one details the origins of Citadel DLC antagonist Maya Brooks, AKA "Hope Lilium." Issue two wil detail Urdnot Wrex before his arrival on the Citadel. Issue Three will detail Ashley Williams and the loss of her unit during the geth's invasion of Eden Prime. Issue four will detail Kaiden Alenko's time in BaaT, and the relationship he had with fellow student Rahna.
The following issues will detail other squadmates, such as Jack, Samara, Kasumi, Zaeed, Grunt, Mordin, Legion, and so-forth. Exact order past issue four not revealed as of yet.
Not entirely sure what these extra bits of info do for the series now that the trilogy is over, though.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 juillet 2013 - 05:43 .

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
Personally, I don't think it's even worth trying to deconstruct the Catalyst or calling it a villain. It's too much of a mess to acknowledge it and bother trying. It's easier to step outside of the game and aim my questions to the actual writers. I'm not interested in trying to find an "in character" understanding of where the Catalyst is coming from. I want to understand the developers instead. And why they wrote this in the first place. It bothers me on a conceptual level. Not necessarily in execution.

Now I'm curious.  What about him bothers you conceptually?

Actually, I'd rather just say the Catalyst is my enemy. I don't particularly care if he's a villain or not. Maybe I'm the actual villain.

He just cramps my style. That's bad enough for me.

The Reapers are like some guy you don't like who invites himself to your party and screws everything up. You just wanted it to be a normal day, a get together to B.S. or talk shop, have some drinks, or hell, maybe even fall in love.. but there's this guy who's smothering everyone, and completely oblivious that no one wants him around. He's making the whole setting about his antics. Sooner or later, I'm going to get tired of people like that and smash their faces in the wall. I want to have space of my own. I want to have time of my own. I want to do simple things with friends/family/or whoever without some random jackass intruding and insisting that he be a part of my life somehow.

Ridiculous example, but hope you get the point. The Catalyst is a villain for being so goddamn imposing and intrusive on everyone's lives. It thinks it's concerns matter so much that it will dictate everything everyone ever does and ever will do, and who lives or dies, and so on. To hell with that. There are a lot of religions in the world with gods like this too, but the thing is, they never show themselves. You don't see Zeus coming down and making life hard for everyone. No one can say whether these gods exist or not. They're merely a belief, and mostly irrelevant to day-to-day life. But the Reapers? They're everything a god is, but with the added bonus of being REAL (in the MEU). And that sucks.

This is an understatement.

You're having a huge party, like a wedding bash. You just got married. All your friends, relatives and their friends are there, and everyone is drinking and partying and having a good time getting drunk. You got maybe a thousand people there. Suddenly these guys show up with machine guns and start shooting people, and you got no way of stopping them. You've got a pistol and your bullets bounce off them. Then this kid walks up to you and tells you, that he controls them. You may have tried shooting him, but your bullets do nothing to him. He gives you three options. You can control them, but you die and become the kid; make everyone partly them and them partly everyone; or you can destroy them but that kills your new spouse. Or if you refuse to make any of those choices they'll kill everyone.

That's what the reapers are. You have no choice.

This is why I hope Walters buries this trilogy six feet under like it never happened and uses an alternate time line and an alternate MEU. I no longer want a sequel to it. I don't want a prequel, nor do I want a sidequel.

After everything BioWare did to defend the original endings, you really think they will be sensible and try a new route? They're routed in old habits - just look at how they couldn't make one game stand-alone without streamlining it's sequal to be nearly all liniar black and white (talking about you, Dragon Age). They couldn't admit that the original endings were lackluster - what makes you think they would concead now by rebooting the entire series.
And it's already confirmed that the next game will likely be a prequal, sidequal, or a mix of the two, and hinted using Garrus' C-SEC days as the basis for it -- like an "L.A Noire" game, Mass Effect style, I suppose. Then a full-blown sequal if that works out. They don't intend to bury their past works - they consider that a "cop-out" for all the work they put into the series.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 juillet 2013 - 06:48 .

[AlanC9]

silverexile17s wrote...

And it's already confirmed that the next game will likely be a prequal, sidequal, or a mix of the two,

You're not still pushing that crazy misreading of the Priestly quote, are you?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Ahhh, tis thread brings me back.

I can bring up a quote of the catalyst specifically saying he doesn't want you to pick control. Does that help clarify anything?

[Cainhurst Crow]

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And it's already confirmed that the next game will likely be a prequal, sidequal, or a mix of the two,

You're not still pushing that crazy misreading of the Priestly quote, are you?

Have to agree, I have yet to see any information released about the next mass effect game, let alone when it will be set.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

David7204 wrote...

Or playing a character who's smart enough to realize the Catalyst has no reason to lie and thus his instructions can be trusted.

Yeeah... the Catalyst just tried to kill you not even 3 minutes ago, controls the Reapers who have lied to everyone (from Saren to TIM) throughout the entire franchise's lifetime and turned organics into slaves and pawns to be used up and discarded.


...no reason to doubt the Catalyst at all...


Think that one over.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Genetic Destiny wrote...

xsdob wrote...

What makes you think he's okay with either destroy or control? He basically says he hates them but that it's what the options do.

I don't think he has a problem with Control. He said TIM was under his control, and considering how much he preached about it through the whole game, the catalyst's "I don't wanna be replaced by you" line is odd. 

There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 27 juillet 2013 - 07:23 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

xsdob wrote...

What makes you think he's okay with either destroy or control? He basically says he hates them but that it's what the options do.

I don't think he has a problem with Control. He said TIM was under his control, and considering how much he preached about it through the whole game, the catalyst's "I don't wanna be replaced by you" line is odd. 

There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

Have you seen anything of the extended cut, out of curiosity?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Even roleplaying it's not impossible to believe he lacks malicious intent.  Again, everytime someone tries to make the Catalyst look villainous, the question of "Then why did he bring you up to the platform in the first place?"  Always fails to get answered.  If he truly had an intent to mislead you or be in any way wicked, helping you at all flies in the face of that.

I never saw the Catalyst has a villain.  He was a proxy.  A mouthpiece.  His sole design at that stage of the game was to provide you clear information, which he does.  The EC turned him into a massive exposition dump, which I utterly disagree with.  Knowing what he is (an AI) doesn't change or influence my decision in the slightest.

Except for the fact that the Catalyst controls the Reapers... he's no proxy anything.. that's the Reaper Boss.  You can blame the Catalyst exclusively for every atrocity and deceitful action/tactic the Reapers have ever deployed.

I'll answer your question though:  The Catalyst brought you up to the platform to entertain new possibilities (because its crazy?  because the story makes no sense?  because the Catalyst is bored?  Or maybe... because the Catalyst acts on impulse/whims more than we'd like to think it does).

For Destroy, why not  (as an alternative for the Catalyst) just have the Reapers stand down/self-destruct?  The Catalyst already asserted that the peace wouldn't last... so why destroy the relays or wipe out 'all' synthetic life?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

xsdob wrote...

What makes you think he's okay with either destroy or control? He basically says he hates them but that it's what the options do.

I don't think he has a problem with Control. He said TIM was under his control, and considering how much he preached about it through the whole game, the catalyst's "I don't wanna be replaced by you" line is odd. 

There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

Have you seen anything of the extended cut, out of curiosity?

Yes, it's not Shepard... the AI acknowledges Shepard as a separate entity.  There's also nothing that shows how in the world the Catalyst was able to copy Shepard's essence into digital form... the only thing we see is Shepard being electrocuted to death.  Was the Catalyst copying Shepard's cells before they disintegrated into charred bits?

The Reapers act like the victims they indoctrinate all the time.  So a surface-level Shepard imitation isn't surprising.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 27 juillet 2013 - 07:35 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

xsdob wrote...

What makes you think he's okay with either destroy or control? He basically says he hates them but that it's what the options do.

I don't think he has a problem with Control. He said TIM was under his control, and considering how much he preached about it through the whole game, the catalyst's "I don't wanna be replaced by you" line is odd. 

There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

Have you seen anything of the extended cut, out of curiosity?

Yes, it's not Shepard... the AI acknowledges Shepard as a separate entity.  There's also nothing that shows how in the world the Catalyst was able to copy Shepard's essence into digital form... the only thing we see is Shepard being electrocuted to death.  Was the Catalyst copying Shepard's cells before they disintegrated into charred bits?

The Reapers act like the victims they indoctrinate all the time.  So a surface-level Shepard imitation isn't surprising.

So that whole "the man/the woman I used to be" stuff means nothing to you?

[christrek1982]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

yes I do agree it makes it feel live a hollow victory at best the  ending is weak and you point out one of it's many flaws I could understand it if the galaxy was winning and it was a last ditch attempt to stay alive in one form or another (control/synthisiss) but no that not the case.

I know ME was ment to be a parady or was enspierd by many of the SCi-FI grate and some of the B movies of the 80s but did it realy have to end like a B move?  a bad one at that.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

xsdob wrote...

What makes you think he's okay with either destroy or control? He basically says he hates them but that it's what the options do.

I don't think he has a problem with Control. He said TIM was under his control, and considering how much he preached about it through the whole game, the catalyst's "I don't wanna be replaced by you" line is odd. 

There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

Have you seen anything of the extended cut, out of curiosity?

Yes, it's not Shepard... the AI acknowledges Shepard as a separate entity.  There's also nothing that shows how in the world the Catalyst was able to copy Shepard's essence into digital form... the only thing we see is Shepard being electrocuted to death.  Was the Catalyst copying Shepard's cells before they disintegrated into charred bits?

The Reapers act like the victims they indoctrinate all the time.  So a surface-level Shepard imitation isn't surprising.

So that whole "the man/the woman I used to be" stuff means nothing to you?

Not when the Catalyst still refers to Shepard as a separate entity.  "Now, my purpose."  "His sacrifice."

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 27 juillet 2013 - 06:18 .

[AlanC9]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

So the kid's stopping the war and repairing the relays because reasons, eh?

This is starting to sound even worse than IT.

[Cainhurst Crow]

This whole the catalyst is lying thing can only be taken so far when logic and reason begin contradicting the accusation.

The reapers are behaving in a significantly altered way now, directly after shepard picks the control option. Trying to say that the catalyst is still in control of the reapers, when in the endings themselves we are told about this new catalyst having shepards memories and stating how it will change how the reapers will act, a contradiction to the previous catalyst actions, just seems illogical.

So basically, trying to say shepard doesn't control the reapers in the control ending when there are empirical evidence to show otherwise just raises too many questions.