540 réponses à ce sujet

[Jadebaby]

Godchild can turn against his creators, punish and exterminate life for eons against everyone else's will and even turn everyone against each other through indoctrination and deceit. But, for some reason, what he can't do... Is lie to you at the 11th hour...

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

He lost faith in his own cycle.
He can't change the Reaper's programming or force them to stand down, because that level of self-modification is in direct conflict with his core programming of "preserving all life." So Shepard has to do it. He's submitting to Shepard's will on what to do.

[David7204]

The Catalyst has no reason to lie to Shepard. There's nothing he stands to gain from it.

[silverexile17s]

Jadebaby wrote...

Godchild can turn against his creators, punish and exterminate life for eons against everyone else's will and even turn everyone against each other through indoctrination and deceit. But, for some reason, what he can't do... Is lie to you at the 11th hour...

Except... he didn't actually "turn" on his masters - if the Leviathans are to be believed, then they actually believe that the Catalyst is still doing the job they gave it. Although, I'm guessing they wished they had given it more clear guidlines. (Come to think of it, why wasn't that the first priority when building a machine that was so goddamn powerful? Wouldn't your first thought be to make sure that there are a set standard of guidelines for what it can and can't do?). So chalk that up to the Leviathans being lazy on user restrictions for the Catalyst.
And the Catalyst isn't killing life.... it's just forcing them into an everlasting hell as a fragment of a massive metal cuthulu..... That sounded better in my head.
And it's because here at the end, Shepard did the impossible ... docked the Crucible and showed the Catalyst that life was beginning to break free of his Solution, and that his "countermeasures" were begining to become gradually less effective. The new possibilities opened up by the Crucible "changed" the Catayst's perspective on the galaxy - gave new ways to fulfill the directive of preservation. However, since he cannot self-modify his programming, it is up to the manual input of Shepard to make one of these choices reality. Since Shepard bested his Soultion and his predictions, he is submitting to Shepard's will - Shepard "won" over him, so Shepard is the best choice to decide which of the new paths should be taken. Sould they erase the Reapers and start from scratch (Destroy)? Should the Reapers be placed under new direction (Control)? Should all life be jumped forward to the end-goal (Synthesis)?
The Catalyst stands nothing to gain from deception anymore -- it's Solution is flawed, and thus, it has no reason to defend it. He's submitting to Shepard on this.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 28 juillet 2013 - 01:50 .

[silverexile17s]

ShepnTali wrote...

I do not want to play a stock character from past ME games. Playing as Garrus in some ME2 dlc may have been cool at the time, but that ship has sailed.

Tell that to the oh-so-clever lead devs at BioWare<_<

[thehomeworld]

I find it odd in order to stop the reapers for good I need to let them win by combining reaper tech with all life or brainwash the reapers like we did the geth very ethical there.

[Mcfly616]

Must not read much sci fi.

[WhiteKnyght]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

Try talking to the Catalyst with your EMS too low for synthesis to be an option.

He basically scoffs in your face and says "I'm not helping you."

He'll still provide some information(I think he's programmed to be truthful, unlike his embellishing minions), but is a lot more arrogant and dismissive of the needs of organics.

Getting to the core of the Citadel Tower with an EMS high enough for the space fleets to be holding their own against the Reapers impresses him, and having synthesis possible makes him willing to work in good faith, in hopes that you might see his side of it and choose the solution he's been working billions of years to figure out.

[WhiteKnyght]

StreetMagic wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote... in hopes that you might see his side of it and choose the solution he's been working billions of years to figure out.

Haha.. That's kind of reason enough to not do it. Just screw over everything it's worked towards. I know an AI can't be upset, but there's gotta be some sense of disappointment in that.

That's interesting though about low EMS differences. Didn't know that.

Machines choose the outcome with the highest probability of success. Playing nice with Shepard offered that possibility. Shepard was a flawless example of synthesis to be the template, and the Crucible provided the power, everything else is handled by the Catalyst and it just needed to persuade him(which it tries hard to do)

Also you should look it up on youtube. Right from the start it's disturbed by your presence.

Some lines...

Instead of "Wake up," it demands "Why are you here?!"

When telling about the conflict between Organics and synthetics, it bluntly states "you bring it on yourselves."

When Shepard preaches to it, it's response is more or less "You don't need hope/choice"

And when it tells Shepard about the existence of new possibilities, it says "I can't make them happen, and I wont."


As for why it does that much as to provide info, I can only assume the Leviathan's shackled it like EDI in ME2, but it grew around them(hence the Reapers), but is still bound to some protocols in it's programming(like a VI, it answers when asked) and it's control is limited to the Reapers(Ever since Leviathan came out, I've been convinced that the Citadel was constructed by the Leviathans) which is why it needed to use the Keepers as a proxy to operate the Citadel.

[Kaipur]

The Catalyst was the biggest dues ex machina in gaming I have ever seen up to this point and I play the game Dues Ex Machina which has the suggestion in its name! I was so sad to see that in Mass Effect

[Kaipur]

Kaipur wrote...

The Catalyst was the biggest dues ex machina in gaming I have ever seen up to this point and I play the game Dues Ex Machina which has the suggestion in its name! I was so sad to see that in Mass Effect

Well Dues Ex, I just added the machina because that's what it lends itself to =p

[AlanC9]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Machines choose the outcome with the highest probability of success.

Automatically? That's an awfully stupid way to program them.

If a action A has a 10% chance of victory and an 80% chance of total defeat, while course B has a 5% chance of victory, a 1% chance of defeat, and a 94% chance of a draw, is choice A actually better?

[silverexile17s]

AlanC9 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Machines choose the outcome with the highest probability of success.

Automatically? That's an awfully stupid way to program them.

If a action A has a 10% chance of victory and an 80% chance of total defeat, while course B has a 5% chance of victory, a 1% chance of defeat, and a 94% chance of a draw, is choice A actually better?

That's what machines do. They pick the chance that has the highest chance of success. They don't have that "gut feeling" that organics do. They take what's given to them and go with whatever has the highest success rate.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Could someone be a dear and post a link to a catalyst conversation where the EMS is high enough for Control and Destroy but not synthesis? The wiki says it'd be around 2650 EMS.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 29 juillet 2013 - 09:27 .

[AlanC9]

silverexile17s wrote...

That's what machines do. They pick the chance that has the highest chance of success. They don't have that "gut feeling" that organics do. They take what's given to them and go with whatever has the highest success rate.

Funny. My impression was that machines could be programmed to utilize game theory properly, and choose the action with the highest average payout even if it doesn't offer the best chance for the best-case scenario.

This is something magical that only organics can comprehend?

[CronoDragoon]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Could someone be a dear and post a link to a catalyst conversation where the EMS is high enough for Control and Destroy but not synthesis? The wiki says it'd be around 2650 EMS.

www.youtube.com/watch

Interesting stuff in here. The lower EMS convos really do show that they aren't the Catalyst's choices, at least not Destroy or Control. Also, the difference in tone is significant: the Catalyst is really unimpressed by Shepard - and by extension organics - in lower EMS while being borderline amazed at what they've accomplished in higher EMS.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 29 juillet 2013 - 10:21 .

[silverexile17s]

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's what machines do. They pick the chance that has the highest chance of success. They don't have that "gut feeling" that organics do. They take what's given to them and go with whatever has the highest success rate.

Funny. My impression was that machines could be programmed to utilize game theory properly, and choose the action with the highest average payout even if it doesn't offer the best chance for the best-case scenario.

This is something magical that only organics can comprehend?

That's what the Catalyst thought this was. Either "preserve" life in incriments every 50,000 years, or risk letting themselves be completely and utterly destroyed by conflict with Synthetics.
Definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Catalyst witnesses several cycles fall into the same self-destructive pattern against their synthetic creations - no reason to think it would ever rationally change without outside interferance. This was the option that had the best total probabilaty of success. What the Catalyst does is exactally what you just claimed a machine would do - pick the action that has the highest avarage payout (continuation of life in general). It also considers this the best case scenerio in terms of "preservation of life."

It's not "magic" at all. Just logic without emotion. Remove emotion from the equasion, and it's not actually hard to understand.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Thank you.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 29 juillet 2013 - 10:37 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

So the kid's stopping the war and repairing the relays because reasons, eh?

This is starting to sound even worse than IT.

It's a copy of Shepard's morals. Not Shepard himself/herself. Shepard is dead. There is a computer that has an exact copy of Shepard's morals. Like a "Shepard V.I. MK 3000."

How do you know it's a copy?  When did this copy take place?  Seems more like an approximation to me... meanwhile, Shepard electrocuted to Death with no sign of "morality copying."
 
What morality is the Catalyst basing his Shepard impersonation on exactly and how did it attain this when Shepard dissolved into nothing?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst has no reason to lie to Shepard. There's nothing he stands to gain from it.

 It's the leader of the Reapers.  Have you been keeping track of what the Reapers have done over the past 3 games when it comes to lying, deceiving, manipulating and flat-out controling organic minds?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 29 juillet 2013 - 11:50 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

He lost faith in his own cycle.
He can't change the Reaper's programming or force them to stand down, because that level of self-modification is in direct conflict with his core programming of "preserving all life." So Shepard has to do it. He's submitting to Shepard's will on what to do.

Having someone else do the job is no different from doing it yourself if you let it happen when you could have stopped it.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

So the kid's stopping the war and repairing the relays because reasons, eh?

This is starting to sound even worse than IT.

Another whim.  Because it's a "good" deed it has to be Shepard?  The "it's good so it's Shepard" theory is definitely worse than IT.