540 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

Try talking to the Catalyst with your EMS too low for synthesis to be an option.

He basically scoffs in your face and says "I'm not helping you."

He'll still provide some information(I think he's programmed to be truthful, unlike his embellishing minions), but is a lot more arrogant and dismissive of the needs of organics.

Getting to the core of the Citadel Tower with an EMS high enough for the space fleets to be holding their own against the Reapers impresses him, and having synthesis possible makes him willing to work in good faith, in hopes that you might see his side of it and choose the solution he's been working billions of years to figure out.

Even when he's acting more like himself (disdain for organics, etc.), it doesn't change the fact that the Reaper leader still has to 'let' you win.

[AlanC9]

silverexile17s wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's what machines do. They pick the chance that has the highest chance of success. They don't have that "gut feeling" that organics do. They take what's given to them and go with whatever has the highest success rate.

Funny. My impression was that machines could be programmed to utilize game theory properly, and choose the action with the highest average payout even if it doesn't offer the best chance for the best-case scenario.

This is something magical that only organics can comprehend?

That's what the Catalyst thought this was. Either "preserve" life in incriments every 50,000 years, or risk letting themselves be completely and utterly destroyed by conflict with Synthetics.

Definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Catalyst witnesses several cycles fall into the same self-destructive pattern against their synthetic creations - no reason to think it would ever rationally change without outside interferance. This was the option that had the best total probabilaty of success. What the Catalyst does is exactally what you just claimed a machine would do - pick the action that has the highest avarage payout (continuation of life in general). It also considers this the best case scenerio in terms of "preservation of life."

It's not "magic" at all. Just logic without emotion. Remove emotion from the equasion, and it's not actually hard to understand.

Right. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. Never was. We got into this because of TheGreyNayr's silly argument upthread about letting Shepard use the Crucible, which is a different proposition altogether.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's what machines do. They pick the chance that has the highest chance of success. They don't have that "gut feeling" that organics do. They take what's given to them and go with whatever has the highest success rate.

Funny. My impression was that machines could be programmed to utilize game theory properly, and choose the action with the highest average payout even if it doesn't offer the best chance for the best-case scenario.

This is something magical that only organics can comprehend?

That's what the Catalyst thought this was. Either "preserve" life in incriments every 50,000 years, or risk letting themselves be completely and utterly destroyed by conflict with Synthetics.

Definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Catalyst witnesses several cycles fall into the same self-destructive pattern against their synthetic creations - no reason to think it would ever rationally change without outside interferance. This was the option that had the best total probabilaty of success. What the Catalyst does is exactally what you just claimed a machine would do - pick the action that has the highest avarage payout (continuation of life in general). It also considers this the best case scenerio in terms of "preservation of life."

It's not "magic" at all. Just logic without emotion. Remove emotion from the equasion, and it's not actually hard to understand.

Right. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. Never was. We got into this because of TheGreyNayr's silly argument upthread about letting Shepard use the Crucible, which is a different proposition altogether.

Well, not sure how accurate his argument is, even if you do remove emotion from the equation.

The Reapers could successfully preserve "life" if they kept a single planet of humans, but refused to allow them advanced technology. If organics are restricted to the tools of cave men, we're not likely to deal with Synthetics any time soon.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

Try talking to the Catalyst with your EMS too low for synthesis to be an option.

He basically scoffs in your face and says "I'm not helping you."

He'll still provide some information(I think he's programmed to be truthful, unlike his embellishing minions), but is a lot more arrogant and dismissive of the needs of organics.

Getting to the core of the Citadel Tower with an EMS high enough for the space fleets to be holding their own against the Reapers impresses him, and having synthesis possible makes him willing to work in good faith, in hopes that you might see his side of it and choose the solution he's been working billions of years to figure out.

Even when he's acting more like himself (disdain for organics, etc.), it doesn't change the fact that the Reaper leader still has to 'let' you win.

I think that's the big insult. It's not even just that the Catalyst is essentially compromising with Shepard, it's that he's compromising with Shepard regarding some ultimate deadly conflict which the player doesn't really deal with, certainly not more prominently than any other problem.

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


There's nothing to suggest that Shepard "ever" takes over for the Reapers as the new Catalyst.  The kid Catalyst is just acting like Shepard as far as I'm concerned.  The only thing we see the real Shepard do is die.

So the kid's stopping the war and repairing the relays because reasons, eh?

This is starting to sound even worse than IT.

It's a copy of Shepard's morals. Not Shepard himself/herself. Shepard is dead. There is a computer that has an exact copy of Shepard's morals. Like a "Shepard V.I. MK 3000."

How do you know it's a copy?  When did this copy take place?  Seems more like an approximation to me... meanwhile, Shepard electrocuted to Death with no sign of "morality copying."
 
What morality is the Catalyst basing his Shepard impersonation on exactly and how did it attain this when Shepard dissolved into nothing?

1 - Because it said so. It says that it is NOT Shepard. That it is a completely different entity, that has Shepard's experances, but is not Shepard.
2 - Really? You really have to ask that? It should be obvious - the moment Shepard touched the pylons, the Commander interfaced woth the Catalyst, which deleated the original (Starchild) and replaced it with a new program created from a template of Shepard's mind taken during interface.
It's not an approximation - since, you know, it announces the difference right away. Or perhaps you missed the part where the new Shepard-Catalyst says that Shepard's toughts and ideals give it direction. It has a template of Shepard's morals to use as a set of guidelines.
The moralaty is whatever Shepard's alingement is. If Paragon, the Shepard-Catalyst re-directs the Reapers to be guardians of peace, observers that will ONLY interfear with events if they spiral into conflict, and work to prevent war. If Renagade, then they are re-directed to be overseers and monitors, forcing co-existance and mandating peace by superiour force.
The  memory transfer was instantinous. Copied while it happened.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 juillet 2013 - 01:08 .

[Indy_S]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Well, not sure how accurate his argument is, even if you do remove emotion from the equation. 

The Reapers could successfully preserve "life" if they kept a single planet of humans, but refused to allow them advanced technology. If organics are restricted to the tools of cave men, we're not likely to deal with Synthetics any time soon.

Then the Catalyst will observe that fire keeps threatening to wipe out the humans and arranges a planet-wide fire to instill a fear of fire in the humans every 50,000 years or so. This has the side effect of devestating the human population every time.

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst has no reason to lie to Shepard. There's nothing he stands to gain from it.

 It's the leader of the Reapers.  Have you been keeping track of what the Reapers have done over the past 3 games when it comes to lying, deceiving, manipulating and flat-out controling organic minds?

And yet, none of the Reapers HAVE lied to us, now have they? If anything, they've been honest to the point of outright arrogance.
Sovergein never lied. Harbinger never lied. That Reaper on Rannoch never lied. They never bothered to lie about their purpose or their plans. They don't have any need to - they can wipe out everyone with a fleeting thought. They have no reason to lie. They are too arrogant and view us as too insignifigant to lie to.
And if you try and asspull that "indoctrination," keep in mind that the Dead Reaper shows us that indoctrination is an unconcious effect. They do not exert intentional control -- it's a reflexive trait.

[silverexile17s]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

He lost faith in his own cycle.
He can't change the Reaper's programming or force them to stand down, because that level of self-modification is in direct conflict with his core programming of "preserving all life." So Shepard has to do it. He's submitting to Shepard's will on what to do.

Having someone else do the job is no different from doing it yourself if you let it happen when you could have stopped it.

Nope. The Catalyst's own programming prevents it from self-modifying like that. It lacks the capability for the necessary manual input. It no longer knows which option is best. It knows which one it beleievs is best going off it's own logic, but as Shepard has shown it, logic can be overcome by willpower and drive. Shepard has viewpoints that the Catalyst will never have, and bested his Solution with those viewpoints. The Catalyst therefore submits to Shepard's judgement.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 juillet 2013 - 01:16 .

[silverexile17s]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's what machines do. They pick the chance that has the highest chance of success. They don't have that "gut feeling" that organics do. They take what's given to them and go with whatever has the highest success rate.

Funny. My impression was that machines could be programmed to utilize game theory properly, and choose the action with the highest average payout even if it doesn't offer the best chance for the best-case scenario.

This is something magical that only organics can comprehend?

That's what the Catalyst thought this was. Either "preserve" life in incriments every 50,000 years, or risk letting themselves be completely and utterly destroyed by conflict with Synthetics.

Definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Catalyst witnesses several cycles fall into the same self-destructive pattern against their synthetic creations - no reason to think it would ever rationally change without outside interferance. This was the option that had the best total probabilaty of success. What the Catalyst does is exactally what you just claimed a machine would do - pick the action that has the highest avarage payout (continuation of life in general). It also considers this the best case scenerio in terms of "preservation of life."

It's not "magic" at all. Just logic without emotion. Remove emotion from the equasion, and it's not actually hard to understand.

Right. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. Never was. We got into this because of TheGreyNayr's silly argument upthread about letting Shepard use the Crucible, which is a different proposition altogether.

Well, not sure how accurate his argument is, even if you do remove emotion from the equation.

The Reapers could successfully preserve "life" if they kept a single planet of humans, but refused to allow them advanced technology. If organics are restricted to the tools of cave men, we're not likely to deal with Synthetics any time soon.

But all organic life decays and ages. They figured that making them "immortal" saves time, effort, and is overall more efficant and for the better. It's only a solution that can be achieved through outright lack of empathy and emotion.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

silverexile17s wrote...

But all organic life decays and ages. They figured that making them "immortal" saves time, effort, and is overall more efficant and for the better. It's only a solution that can be achieved through outright lack of empathy and emotion.

 The entire crux of the Catalyst's (and Leviathans') argument rests on this idea of our extinction at the hands of Synthetics. Without the Reapers, Synthetics would kill all organics.

An emotional response would imply that I am against the Catalyst's interpretation based on some heartfelt message. It's not about what's ethical. It's about what works within the confines of the Catalyst's interpretation. The Reapers could farm us in a similar vein to the Matrix's machines. Letting us reach/discover the Citadel and acquire (even rudimentary) Reaper technology is not a good idea, if their ultimate plan is to harvest us. Recognizing that the Reapers can be killed and that organics, on occasion, have successfully killed Reapers makes me headscratch at the idea that the Reapers are just letting us have a party until they decide it's time to begin the harvest.

Just look at what the Reapers have to deal with on Earth in terms of collecting the humans. It's wasted time, effort, and resources that they have to hunt down these minor rebellious factions.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 30 juillet 2013 - 01:29 .

[Wolfva2]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?


Who's idea (in the ME universe) was that? lol.

"Okay the last thing we need... is the leader of the Reapers to be okay with this so we can fire off that Crucible, because we have no idea how to work this thing."


Doesn't that inadvertently suggest that the Crucible itself is a Reaper design (possibly pushed through by indoctrinated civilizations?)


Let the speculations continue

Try talking to the Catalyst with your EMS too low for synthesis to be an option.

He basically scoffs in your face and says "I'm not helping you."

He'll still provide some information(I think he's programmed to be truthful, unlike his embellishing minions), but is a lot more arrogant and dismissive of the needs of organics.

Getting to the core of the Citadel Tower with an EMS high enough for the space fleets to be holding their own against the Reapers impresses him, and having synthesis possible makes him willing to work in good faith, in hopes that you might see his side of it and choose the solution he's been working billions of years to figure out.

Even when he's acting more like himself (disdain for organics, etc.), it doesn't change the fact that the Reaper leader still has to 'let' you win.

I think that's the big insult. It's not even just that the Catalyst is essentially compromising with Shepard, it's that he's compromising with Shepard regarding some ultimate deadly conflict which the player doesn't really deal with, certainly not more prominently than any other problem.

In what way is the AI compromising with Shepard?  After all, there are only 3 things the beam can do.  Destroy reapers, control reapers, join you with reapers.  All the AI does is explain those choices.  It's more an users manual then anything else.

"But..but...but the catalyst is LYING!!!" some might say.  First off, Shepard is the Catalyst; he is the agent of change.  NOT the AI.  The Citadel is the gun, the Crucible is the battery that powers the gun, the AI is the users manual, and Shep is the agent of change that decides the new course of the universe*.  Second, in what way is the AI lying?  You mean...the beam DOESN'T kill the reapers, allow you to control them, or merge you?  Because we know that it DOES, through metagame data.  Namely, the epilogue, which exists to tell the GAMER what happened, not to tell Shepard. 

*Whether or not you like the users manual, it's necessary; otherwise Shep is sitting next to Anderson's corpse going, "WTF?!?  Why won't it shoot!  I'm gettin to old for this ****"  Remember folks, always read the users manual.

[Cobalt2113]

To answer the OP...

No, I didn't find it odd. At least no more than odd than stopping to have a nice little chat with Saren before fighting him. Or cooperating with The Illusive Man at all rather than just telling him to take a hike because he is so obviously evil.

Modifié par Cobalt2113, 30 juillet 2013 - 04:27 .

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

These things all work fine conceptually.. The AI as a user manual.

It's still lame though. It's an odd "delivery" system for a finale like this. It's reaks of an eggheaded, effeminate mentality. Someone who lost touch with the visceral mood that was required here. The ending needed more **** and balls. Sorry, can't put it any other way.

People still use"effeminate" that way? Actually, the whole metaphor's kinda tacky. But I guess you knew that.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 juillet 2013 - 04:40 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

To answer the OP...

No, I didn't find it odd. At least no more than odd than stopping to have a nice little chat with Saren before fighting him. Or cooperating with The Illusive Man at all rather than just telling him to take a hike because he is so obviously evil.

I think you misunderstand my question.  You never needed Saren or TIM's permission to defeat them/bring about galactic peace.  Those examples don't really compare.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

silverexile17s wrote...
Nope. The Catalyst's own programming prevents it from self-modifying like that. It lacks the capability for the necessary manual input. It no longer knows which option is best. It knows which one it beleievs is best going off it's own logic, but as Shepard has shown it, logic can be overcome by willpower and drive. Shepard has viewpoints that the Catalyst will never have, and bested his Solution with those viewpoints. The Catalyst therefore submits to Shepard's judgement.

The Catalyst said that the Crucible offered "new... possibilities..." not obligations.  And by no way, shape, or form does the Catalyst submit to Shepard's 'judgement.'  Shoot at it or reject the choices it presents, and it doesn't care what Shepard's judgement is.  The Catalyst's actions suggest a whim/impulse at best.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 30 juillet 2013 - 04:54 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wolfva2 wrote..."But..but...but the catalyst is LYING!!!" some might say.  First off, Shepard is the Catalyst; he is the agent of change.  NOT the AI. 

Catalyst:  "I am the Catalyst"


So are you saying the Catalyst was lying or.... what?

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
. The ending needed more **** and balls. Sorry, can't put it any other way.

People still use"effeminate" that way? Actually, the whole metaphor's kinda tacky. But I guess you knew that.

I'm not sure what the "metaphor" is either. I never intended to use one.

The italed bit's a metaphor, since you weren't saying that the ending needed images of male genitalia.

As for effeminate, it's getting rare these days to see the word used at all except maybe for males imitating female behavior, mostly because it opens up a whole sexist can o' worms that nobody who uses four-syllable words actually wants opened. (There are code words available for folks who want to go there while maintaining plausible deniability) But calling something "effeminate" because it's intellectual is something I haven't seen done much since the 70s. Still a recognized use, but dying out.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 juillet 2013 - 05:36 .

[Wolfva2]

Okay Gogetta, you got me there <LOL>.  Yeah, the AI says he's the catalyst.  Which I guess is as good a name as any; however it's SHEPARD that actually fulfills the definition of the word 'catalyst'.  Besides, it would have been confusing if the AI had said, "I am Joe."

StreetMagic wrote...

These things all work fine conceptually.. The AI as a user manual.

It's still lame though. It's an odd "delivery" system for a finale like this. It's reaks of an eggheaded, effeminate mentality. Someone who lost touch with the visceral mood that was required here. The ending needed more **** and balls. Sorry, can't put it any other way.

Not gonna argue with ya on that.  Although it's all subjective, I STILL say the game would have worked better with Shep and Anderson getting to the citadel, opening the shutters, then sitting back and watching the beam destroy the reapers. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Okay Gogetta, you got me there <LOL>.  Yeah, the AI says he's the catalyst.  Which I guess is as good a name as any; however it's SHEPARD that actually fulfills the definition of the word 'catalyst'.  Besides, it would have been confusing if the AI had said, "I am Joe."

Possibly... though the AI would technically fit the role of a Catalyst more because without the AI to bring Shepard up there and explain the choices, nothing would have got going on those ABC color tubes.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

csm4267 wrote...

... you need the 'permission' of the Reaper leader to do it?

Permission? Heh. This is an RPG. Shepard is a character. You control Shepard. What he does, what choices he makes. You do it all. No one forces you to make any choices. You are the one who chose to destroy the Reapers.

From Bioshock:

A man chooses, a slave obeys. 

You use "Force" in an interesting way.  Does a robber "force" you to give him your money when holding you at gunpoint?

//going a little dark here (but it's to make a point)... warning

If a terrorist captures you and forces you to pick which family member dies (or you all die)... are you being forced to condemn at least one of you to death?

Where do you draw the line for what's "your" choice and what's their choice?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 30 juillet 2013 - 06:02 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

csm4267 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Where do you draw the line for what's "your" choice and what's their choice?

Did you choose to cure the genophage, or did Shepard do it? How's that.

You live vicariously through Shepard (roleplaying or otherwise).  So that choice is your choice.  But your choice is not Mordin's choice.