I swear, Jade8aby88, I have yet to read a single post of yours on this forum that I agree with. It's like the universe scanned my thought patterns and completely reversed them, giving rise to my negative: Jade8aby88. You're entitled to your opinions and what-not, but you're all over these forums and I'm just blown away by how much head-shaking you alone induce. It amuses me so in a weird way I approve.
Conventional Victory is impossible!
Débuté par
Jadebaby
, déc. 22 2012 08:47
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#27
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 11:58
Dragoonlordz
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Just adding the letters "un" in front of it does not change anything other than your wording.
#28
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 11:59
Dragoonlordz
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David7204 wrote...
I'm sure he said it would take a lot of resources. Which it would. But I doubt it would be a huge impact compared to the war effort of the rest of the galaxy.
Alternative dimension theory. I await the threads popping up "We can win conventionally if we plunder other universes/dimensions for resources!"
Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:01 .
#29
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:01
EnvyTB075
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xsdob wrote...
You see them at the battle of earth, where the reapers actually take casualties. Look at palavan and than at earth, and you'll see the projectiles used by the fleets is different, as is the damage the reapers take.
Those are not Thanix weapons.
David7204 wrote...
There has to be some sort of tipping
point. Shepard has to personally and directly cause the battle to swing
in the favor of the allied fleets. And it has to be right at the finale.
Not before.
That would be tough.
I would have thought BioWare had that ability after the high that was ME2.,
Modifié par EnvyTB075, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:04 .
#30
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:08
Ridwan
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It's impossible if you're a quitter, real men fight to the end with super laser weapons, mysterious aliens and mega ships against the evil tentacles from the place that has no name!
#31
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:10
David7204
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An immensely small number of people have that ability.
#32
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:15
EnvyTB075
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David7204 wrote...
An immensely small number of people have that ability.
And given enough time, I think BioWare could have done it.
#33
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:25
Reorte
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A sensible alternative would involve re-writing the entire game from scratch so it's not going to happen.
Defeating the Reapers in a single instant with a Giant Reaper Defeating Microphone is stupid and massively implausible but so is taking them all out in a straightforward battle (is it really that likely that this cycle's military forces are that much more capable than every cycle before them, even with the unique advantage of not having lost the Citadel until the Reapers suddenly remember it and take it over with no effort anyway?)
So what alternatives are there? The only one I can see is if there's something about Shepard and his actions that starts convincing a few Reapers that their whole plan is a load of nonsense and convinces them change sides, or at least stop. You could still have the Control / Destroy thing there, or something similar - change them by persuasion or force; I could just about accept Control working on a single nearby Reaper. It would also leave the interesting question about whether Controlled Reapers or persuaded Reapers are the less dangerous thing to have around in the future.
Defeating the Reapers in a single instant with a Giant Reaper Defeating Microphone is stupid and massively implausible but so is taking them all out in a straightforward battle (is it really that likely that this cycle's military forces are that much more capable than every cycle before them, even with the unique advantage of not having lost the Citadel until the Reapers suddenly remember it and take it over with no effort anyway?)
So what alternatives are there? The only one I can see is if there's something about Shepard and his actions that starts convincing a few Reapers that their whole plan is a load of nonsense and convinces them change sides, or at least stop. You could still have the Control / Destroy thing there, or something similar - change them by persuasion or force; I could just about accept Control working on a single nearby Reaper. It would also leave the interesting question about whether Controlled Reapers or persuaded Reapers are the less dangerous thing to have around in the future.
#34
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:28
David7204
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No. That's pretty much what we got. The Crucible alone isn't worth jack. It's the Reaper tech built onto the Citadel that does the actual heavy lifting. Not the Crucible.
In addition it would be perfectly possible for the series the end with an overwhelming and decisive victory while still making clear that not every single Reaper across the galaxy is destroyed. It would be a good opportunity for post-ending DLC.
In addition it would be perfectly possible for the series the end with an overwhelming and decisive victory while still making clear that not every single Reaper across the galaxy is destroyed. It would be a good opportunity for post-ending DLC.
Modifié par David7204, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:30 .
#35
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:31
EnvyTB075
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Would have been perfectly happy with the Crucible being a giant reaper SHIELD off switch, since the codex says they're not that invincible without them.
For the first time ever, i think we can agree on something.
David7204 wrote...
In addition it would be perfectly possible for the series the end with an overwhelming and decisive victory while still making clear that not every single Reaper across the galaxy is destroyed. It would be a good opportunity for post-ending DLC.
For the first time ever, i think we can agree on something.
#36
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:33
Rifneno
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Conventional victory is stupid. Let's do some math. It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down one Reaper capital ship. A lot of people know this. What people don't seem to know is the numbers on each side. Before the invasion, all Council races combined had 85 dreadnoughts. Multiple dreadnoughts are confirmed destroyed in ME3, and many more are likely lost that we don't know about.
Now how many Reapers are there? Well let's start small. Remember that quick glimpse of a Reaper fleet at the end of ME2? Somebody counted. 292 ships are seen, and very likely they're all capital ships. Chances are, there's far, far more. The Leviathan of Dis was dated at about a billion years old. So the Reapers have been reaping for at least that long. One of the writers told us that the Reapers rarely lose even one capital ship per cycle. So let's assume they lose one every other cycle. So the most conservative estimate of their capital ship numbers is an astounding ten thousand. Which makes sense when you consider that everytime we're in a major city, be it on Earth or Thessia or whatever, you can see multiple capital ships prancing about. 10,000 capital ships vs. 85 dreadnoughts. Still think we've got a chance in a straight up fight? If so, I recommend rehab.
Now how many Reapers are there? Well let's start small. Remember that quick glimpse of a Reaper fleet at the end of ME2? Somebody counted. 292 ships are seen, and very likely they're all capital ships. Chances are, there's far, far more. The Leviathan of Dis was dated at about a billion years old. So the Reapers have been reaping for at least that long. One of the writers told us that the Reapers rarely lose even one capital ship per cycle. So let's assume they lose one every other cycle. So the most conservative estimate of their capital ship numbers is an astounding ten thousand. Which makes sense when you consider that everytime we're in a major city, be it on Earth or Thessia or whatever, you can see multiple capital ships prancing about. 10,000 capital ships vs. 85 dreadnoughts. Still think we've got a chance in a straight up fight? If so, I recommend rehab.
#37
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:34
Someone With Mass
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Even the Codex says that a conventional victory is theoretically possible.
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.
http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers
Also, to make it work from a gameplay perspective, simply have Shepard find ways to coordinate with different fleet groups that are effective against different things and have their effectiveness be affected by war assets or perhaps mission outcomes, like different shielding technology, weapons, troops, pilots and the likes.
Like the Suicide Mission in ME2, just on a larger scale.
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.
http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers
Also, to make it work from a gameplay perspective, simply have Shepard find ways to coordinate with different fleet groups that are effective against different things and have their effectiveness be affected by war assets or perhaps mission outcomes, like different shielding technology, weapons, troops, pilots and the likes.
Like the Suicide Mission in ME2, just on a larger scale.
#38
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:34
Reorte
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Only affects ones relatively nearby too, still a tough battle needed (and needing to cart the Crucible around with you)? Sovereign went down fairly easily once his shields had failed. That could just about work although if the Reapers had any sense they'd scarper off back to dark space for a bit of redesign as soon as they lost a few of themselves to that.EnvyTB075 wrote...
Would have been perfectly happy with the Crucible being a giant reaper SHIELD off switch, since the codex says they're not that invincible without them..
#39
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:35
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Sure, they're not invincible, in the same way as a modern army isn't invicible against a bunch armed with bows and arrows. All they need is the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy...Someone With Mass wrote...
Even the Codex says that a conventional victory is theoretically possible.
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.
http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers
Also, to make it work from a gameplay perspective, simply have Shepard find ways to coordinate with different fleet groups that are effective against different things and have their effectiveness be affected by war assets or perhaps mission outcomes, like different shielding technology, weapons, troops, pilots and the likes.
Like the Suicide Mission in ME2, just on a larger scale.
#40
Guest_vivaladricas_*
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:36
Guest_vivaladricas_*
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No point to play if you can't win since it is a video GAME. Games are meant to be won, not sort of handed to you by the enemy for the most part.
If stuff has to go that out there to beat em then let Shepard find the Infinity Gauntlet and then well... the tables turn drastically. Or call in the Avengers since Bioware wrote something that belongs in the Marvel Universe, even kind of stole the idea from Marvel possibly. Link. Just scroll a bit for the pretty picutre.
Anyway it doesn't matter how really, they could have went independence day style or all I care, the point is to write a sweet ending with explosions and epic music that Clint Mansell (sp) could have done. That = win!
If stuff has to go that out there to beat em then let Shepard find the Infinity Gauntlet and then well... the tables turn drastically. Or call in the Avengers since Bioware wrote something that belongs in the Marvel Universe, even kind of stole the idea from Marvel possibly. Link. Just scroll a bit for the pretty picutre.
Anyway it doesn't matter how really, they could have went independence day style or all I care, the point is to write a sweet ending with explosions and epic music that Clint Mansell (sp) could have done. That = win!
Modifié par vivaladricas, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:39 .
#41
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:38
Someone With Mass
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Rifneno wrote...
Conventional victory is stupid. Let's do some math. It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down one Reaper capital ship. A lot of people know this. What people don't seem to know is the numbers on each side. Before the invasion, all Council races combined had 85 dreadnoughts. Multiple dreadnoughts are confirmed destroyed in ME3, and many more are likely lost that we don't know about.
Now how many Reapers are there? Well let's start small. Remember that quick glimpse of a Reaper fleet at the end of ME2? Somebody counted. 292 ships are seen, and very likely they're all capital ships. Chances are, there's far, far more. The Leviathan of Dis was dated at about a billion years old. So the Reapers have been reaping for at least that long. One of the writers told us that the Reapers rarely lose even one capital ship per cycle. So let's assume they lose one every other cycle. So the most conservative estimate of their capital ship numbers is an astounding ten thousand. Which makes sense when you consider that everytime we're in a major city, be it on Earth or Thessia or whatever, you can see multiple capital ships prancing about. 10,000 capital ships vs. 85 dreadnoughts. Still think we've got a chance in a straight up fight? If so, I recommend rehab.
You know what's also stupid? To expect the allied forces to simply charge into the battle without implementing the most basic of warfare tactics, which they have more than likely developed plenty of during thousands of years.
#42
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:39
Twinzam.V
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I find it funny that people say conventional victory is impossible but are ok that Shepard in 2 endings becomes a wave of energy and something closer to God.
I dont see anyway to describe it better since Shepard loses is body, somehow it becomes a wave of energy and then is mind is everywhere.
I dont see anyway to describe it better since Shepard loses is body, somehow it becomes a wave of energy and then is mind is everywhere.
Modifié par Twinzam.V, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:39 .
#43
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:40
EnvyTB075
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Reorte wrote...
Only affects ones relatively nearby too, still a tough battle needed (and needing to cart the Crucible around with you)? Sovereign went down fairly easily once his shields had failed. That could just about work although if the Reapers had any sense they'd scarper off back to dark space for a bit of redesign as soon as they lost a few of themselves to that.EnvyTB075 wrote...
Would have been perfectly happy with the Crucible being a giant reaper SHIELD off switch, since the codex says they're not that invincible without them..
That would have been the perfect time to implement SM 2.0, where which world you choose to save first (since specific worlds will have higher Reaper concentrations surrounding them), which would strain alliegiences implementing charm convo options depending on rep.
Also whether or not you succeed could hinge on how many forces you have in total, or whether or not you have either Quarians, Geth or both. Give those supposed important alliegiences purpose. And after the battle, what you have left over is what you have. No speculations. Then you implement various death scenarios, survival scenarios, Shepard and Love interest survival or one of the pair dead or both, all tying into the choices made in the past three games.
Rifneno wrote...
Conventional victory is stupid. Let's do
some math. It takes 3-4 dreadnoughts to bring down one Reaper capital
ship. A lot of people know this. What people don't seem to know is the
numbers on each side. Before the invasion, all Council races combined
had 85 dreadnoughts. Multiple dreadnoughts are confirmed destroyed in
ME3, and many more are likely lost that we don't know about.
.
And those Reapers are shielded. Remove their shields and the SR-1 can demolish a single Reaper single handedly. Add in the SR2's (potentially, given player choice) Thanix cannons, and their proliferation throughout allied militaries, imagine what they could do to the entire Reaper Armada.
Modifié par EnvyTB075, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:43 .
#44
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:42
Dragoonlordz
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I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.
#45
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:48
Rifneno
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Someone With Mass wrote...
You know what's also stupid? To expect the allied forces to simply charge into the battle without implementing the most basic of warfare tactics, which they have more than likely developed plenty of during thousands of years.
And Wendy's food tastes like elephant taint. What's your point? I'm talking about the sheer physical power of the two sides. The difference is simply too much to overcome without some "I win" button. But since you brought it up, the Reapers clearly win in the tactics department too seeing as they're God only knows how much smart that us and have spent millions of years honing their tactics.
EnvyTB075 wrote...
And those Reapers are shielded. Remove their shields and the SR-1 can demolish a single Reaper single handedly. Add in the SR2's (potentially, given player choice) Thanix cannons, and their proliferation throughout allied militaries, imagine what they could do to the entire Reaper Armada.
You say "remove their shields" like that would be a trivial thing to do. That would be as much of an "I win" button as the Crucible. ... Well, almost. Besides we all know that BW won't go there. Most people would be okay with a few references to Independence Day, but ripping off the ending pretty much word for word would be... yeah.
#46
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:50
David7204
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It's true. The Crucible being a shield-buster would be worse than what it is now. At least now there's a reason for why it can do what it does in the first place.
Same thing for a super-virus, Reaper communications hub that controls them for some reason...any of that.
Same thing for a super-virus, Reaper communications hub that controls them for some reason...any of that.
Modifié par David7204, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:51 .
#47
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:51
DirtyPhoenix
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GT Zazzerka wrote...
I could deal with the Crucible if it wasn't a gigantic "fück you" machine.
Why did you change that beautiful dp of yours? And replaced that with a husk? >.>
#48
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:52
Twinzam.V
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Dragoonlordz wrote...
I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.
And it was possible. In ME2 you're completely overpowered if you do everything right .
If you make every upgrade to the Normandy SR2 she can face a dreadnought, you have the M920 Cain that vaporizes everything in range and every race in the galaxy has access to this tecnology not forgeting that at least the Turians and Humans as races with a history of war would make this tecnology standart, especially the Thanix cannons.
Modifié par Twinzam.V, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:53 .
#49
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:53
EnvyTB075
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Rifneno wrote...
You say "remove their shields" like that would be a trivial thing to do. That would be as much of an "I win" button as the Crucible. ... Well, almost. Besides we all know that BW won't go there. Most people would be okay with a few references to Independence Day, but ripping off the ending pretty much word for word would be... yeah.
Like ripping off the ending is even important even more given the current sequence's similarities to Deus Ex?
And no, it wouldn't be an "I win" button, because there would still be work involved that would either see your alliances pay off, or the complete and utter loss of everything and the continuation of the cycle (with no end, not some hand wavey gesture that someone else did it) that shows being a derp means you lose.
David7204 wrote...
Same thing for a super-virus, Reaper communications hub that controls them for some reason...any of that.
Dude thats exactly what happens in Control. Why is it suddenly wrong to use it for a better purpose?
Modifié par EnvyTB075, 22 décembre 2012 - 12:54 .
#50
Posté 22 décembre 2012 - 12:56
Dragoonlordz
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Twinzam.V wrote...
Dragoonlordz wrote...
I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.
And it was possible. In ME2 you're completely overpowered if you do everything right .
If you make every upgrade to the Normandy SR2 she can face a dreadnought, you have the M920 Cain that vaporizes everything in range and every race in the galaxy has access to this tecnology not forgeting that at least the Turians and Humans as races with a history of war would make this tecnology standart, especially the Thanix cannons.
And it was not possible in ME3 because of how they wrote it. You missed the point. They can write any game to make anything possible but once they have written the game what is possible is limited to what they allowed. They did not allow it in ME3, it was not possible in ME3. They could of wrote it so was a possible outcome in ME3 but they did not therefore it is not.
