272 réponses à ce sujet

[Twinzam.V]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

And you might have everything going in your favor in a game of chess but when the other player stands up and cracks you around the skull with a chair that favor disappears quite fast as you lay unconscious. The whole what if nonsense is just silly. There is no 'what if' because of 'what is'.

They could of written ME3 in way that tips the battles in your favor all the way through, they could of written is as a cake walk if chosen to do so however they chose to write it in favor events wise on the side of the Reapers. Any battle, any event can go either way but in games, movies or books it will always go in favor of whatever side the writer or creator decides and they write the content around that. It is impossible to win conventionally in ME3 because they wrote it in a way that events would not allow it to be possible. Everything else is fanfiction.

The correct analogy would be, they flipped the table pointed at you and said "Ah ah. I win.".
It's just childish and for what?
Ok we cant win conventionaly because of the writers, but dont tell me to agree with "deep meaning ending", existencialism crap and whatnot compressed in the last 10 minutes of the game.
Other games do it better and even if you "dont get it" it doesnt hinder the game, because conventional victory was possible by the end of ME2 and the writers choose not to just because "stuff" and "things". <_<

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 22 décembre 2012 - 01:39 .

[Armass81]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.

And it was possible. In ME2 you're completely overpowered if you do everything right .
If you make every upgrade to the Normandy SR2 she can face a dreadnought, you have the M920 Cain that vaporizes everything in range and every race in the galaxy has access to this tecnology not forgeting that at least the Turians and Humans as races with a history of war would make this tecnology standart, especially the Thanix cannons.

And it was not possible in ME3 because of how they wrote it. You missed the point. They can write any game to make anything possible but once they have written the game what is possible is limited to what they allowed. They did not allow it in ME3, it was not possible in ME3. They could of wrote it so was a possible outcome in ME3 but they did not therefore it is not.

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

Soldier vs soldier, maybe.

Soldier vs advanced death machine no... not comparable. Single Reaper is more than a match for several cruisers, and there are too many of them. They had numerical and technological superiority, this isnt too hard 1+1 logic here.

I keep hearing this over and over again, people wanted reapers to be this terrifying force of unstoppable eldritch abominations but then also want conventional victory against them. Things dont add up in here.

Do you people even know what the hell you wanted?

Modifié par Armass81, 22 décembre 2012 - 01:47 .

[Reorte]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Sure, they're not invincible, in the same way as a modern army isn't invicible against a bunch armed with bows and arrows. All they need is the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy...

That's one poor comparison, since the Codex also states that it takes three dreadnoughts to destroy one Reaper capital ship.

Guerrilla warfare. Thanix weapons. The knowledge that a Reaper must transfer power from its kinetic barriers to its mass effect field generators to land on a planet, leaving its shields at partial strength.

Hey, what do you know. The allied forces can do all three.

OK, make it WWI technology vs. todays. A WWI battleship could do immense damage against modern forces, if it could somehow get within range, find a target, and fire without being destroyed itself first.

Three dreadnoughts vs. one Reaper capital ship. Well, we're screwed then, aren't we? There certainly doesn't seem to be a 3:1 ratio of Council dreadnaughts to Reaper capital ships. And that's only thanks to the aforementioned Thanix weapons. Guerilla warfare isn't going to achieve very much, particularly against an enemy with no qualms about anything at all and whos ground forces consist of turning your own people against you anyway. If things get too awkward they can simply give up on the ground side and trash a planet from orbit.

As I've said before it would look franky ridiculous if we could win in a straightforward fight, or even impose substantial damage to Reaper forces, when every single cycle before has failed to do so. A conventional victory would make the entire premise of the Mass Effect plot stupid, instead of just its resolution.

Modifié par Reorte, 22 décembre 2012 - 01:46 .

[Twinzam.V]

Armass81 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.

And it was possible. In ME2 you're completely overpowered if you do everything right .
If you make every upgrade to the Normandy SR2 she can face a dreadnought, you have the M920 Cain that vaporizes everything in range and every race in the galaxy has access to this tecnology not forgeting that at least the Turians and Humans as races with a history of war would make this tecnology standart, especially the Thanix cannons.

And it was not possible in ME3 because of how they wrote it. You missed the point. They can write any game to make anything possible but once they have written the game what is possible is limited to what they allowed. They did not allow it in ME3, it was not possible in ME3. They could of wrote it so was a possible outcome in ME3 but they did not therefore it is not.

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

Soldier vs soldier, maybe.

Soldier vs death machine no... not comparable. Single Reaper is more than a match for several cruisers, and there are too many of them.

In the begining of WW2 smaller german warships were sinking bigger more powerfull warships and being a headache to the british basically spoiling their tea time. The british were then able to win by resorting to traps or cornering them in places that dont allow proper manouvers. In open waters they were a headache again.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 22 décembre 2012 - 01:48 .

[Armass81]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.

And it was possible. In ME2 you're completely overpowered if you do everything right .
If you make every upgrade to the Normandy SR2 she can face a dreadnought, you have the M920 Cain that vaporizes everything in range and every race in the galaxy has access to this tecnology not forgeting that at least the Turians and Humans as races with a history of war would make this tecnology standart, especially the Thanix cannons.

And it was not possible in ME3 because of how they wrote it. You missed the point. They can write any game to make anything possible but once they have written the game what is possible is limited to what they allowed. They did not allow it in ME3, it was not possible in ME3. They could of wrote it so was a possible outcome in ME3 but they did not therefore it is not.

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

Soldier vs soldier, maybe.

Soldier vs death machine no... not comparable. Single Reaper is more than a match for several cruisers, and there are too many of them.

In the begining of WW2 smaller german warships were sinking bigger more powerfull warships and being a headache to the british basically spoiling their tea time. The british were then able to win by resorting to traps or cornering them in places that dont allow proper manouvers.

Sigh, were not talking about human vs human here. More like a rat vs tiger in scope. And in this case there are more tigers than rats.

Modifié par Armass81, 22 décembre 2012 - 01:51 .

[Twinzam.V]

Armass81 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.

And it was possible. In ME2 you're completely overpowered if you do everything right .
If you make every upgrade to the Normandy SR2 she can face a dreadnought, you have the M920 Cain that vaporizes everything in range and every race in the galaxy has access to this tecnology not forgeting that at least the Turians and Humans as races with a history of war would make this tecnology standart, especially the Thanix cannons.

And it was not possible in ME3 because of how they wrote it. You missed the point. They can write any game to make anything possible but once they have written the game what is possible is limited to what they allowed. They did not allow it in ME3, it was not possible in ME3. They could of wrote it so was a possible outcome in ME3 but they did not therefore it is not.

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

Soldier vs soldier, maybe.

Soldier vs death machine no... not comparable. Single Reaper is more than a match for several cruisers, and there are too many of them.

In the begining of WW2 smaller german warships were sinking bigger more powerfull warships and being a headache to the british basically spoiling their tea time. The british were then able to win by resorting to traps or cornering them in places that dont allow proper manouvers.

Sigh, were not talking about human vs human here.

By that definition the humans would be obliterated in the "First contact war".

[Armass81]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I don't think it is impossible, anything is possible if those chose to write it in a way that made it possible. Hell they could write that the Reapers caught a bad case of the sniffles and were all blinded by their giant hankies. My view is it shouldn't happen for the dozens of reasons I have mentioned before in various threads about this topic on here of which I cba to repeat for the millionth time.

And it was possible. In ME2 you're completely overpowered if you do everything right .
If you make every upgrade to the Normandy SR2 she can face a dreadnought, you have the M920 Cain that vaporizes everything in range and every race in the galaxy has access to this tecnology not forgeting that at least the Turians and Humans as races with a history of war would make this tecnology standart, especially the Thanix cannons.

And it was not possible in ME3 because of how they wrote it. You missed the point. They can write any game to make anything possible but once they have written the game what is possible is limited to what they allowed. They did not allow it in ME3, it was not possible in ME3. They could of wrote it so was a possible outcome in ME3 but they did not therefore it is not.

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

Soldier vs soldier, maybe.

Soldier vs death machine no... not comparable. Single Reaper is more than a match for several cruisers, and there are too many of them.

In the begining of WW2 smaller german warships were sinking bigger more powerfull warships and being a headache to the british basically spoiling their tea time. The british were then able to win by resorting to traps or cornering them in places that dont allow proper manouvers.

Sigh, were not talking about human vs human here.

By that definition the humans would be obliterated in the "First contact war".

They would have been if the council did not stop turians.

[Twinzam.V]

Armass81 wrote...

They would have been if the council did not stop turians.

General Williams - "Maybe you're forgetting we took the planet back."

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 22 décembre 2012 - 01:53 .

[Armass81]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

They would have been if the council did not stop turians.

General Williams - "Maybe you're forgetting we took the planet back."

Yes they took it back from a small turian force, that was maybe couple of percent of the entire hierarchy. What would have happened when the turians went on full offensive? They have the biggest war fleet in the galaxy, do the math.

Modifié par Armass81, 22 décembre 2012 - 01:56 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

And you might have everything going in your favor in a game of chess but when the other player stands up and cracks you around the skull with a chair that favor disappears quite fast as you lay unconscious. The whole what if nonsense is just silly. There is no 'what if' because of 'what is'.

They could of written ME3 in way that tips the battles in your favor all the way through, they could of written is as a cake walk if chosen to do so however they chose to write it in favor events wise on the side of the Reapers. Any battle, any event can go either way but in games, movies or books it will always go in favor of whatever side the writer or creator decides and they write the content around that. It is impossible to win conventionally in ME3 because they wrote it in a way that events would not allow it to be possible. Everything else is fanfiction.

The correct analogy would be, they flipped the table pointed at you and said "Ah ah. I win.".
It's just childish and for what?
Ok we cant win conventionaly because of the writers, but dont tell me to agree with "deep meaning ending", existencialism crap and whatnot compressed in the last 10 minutes of the game.
Other games do it better and even if you "dont get it" it doesnt hinder the game, because conventional victory was possible by the end of ME2 and the writers choose not to just because "stuff" and "things". <_<

It is not that much different from ME2 in context of what is possible and what is not, the basic 'what if' scenarios. The only reason Shepard could even beat the human-reaper in ME2 is because Bioware decide to give it a weak spot (a win button) being the tubes you shoot of which they did not have to give him that weakness. In context of ME3 that weak spot they decided would be the crucible and catalyst. They are each the win buttons for each game from ME3 catalyst crucible or those red tubes in ME2 for the human reaper fight and the ship upgrades that they never had to write into the story if did not wish to from ME2 in order to beat collector ship. ME1 had just as much a win button in the dropping of shields on Sovereign when Saren dies which did not have to do either and that is no different in it's purpose is the win button for that game..

If the human-reaper never was given those weak spots, if they never created ship upgrades in ME2, if they never dropped Sovereigns shields when Saren dies...

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Reorte]

Twinzam.V wrote...

In the begining of WW2 smaller german warships were sinking bigger more powerfull warships and being a headache to the british basically spoiling their tea time. The british were then able to win by resorting to traps or cornering them in places that dont allow proper manouvers. In open waters they were a headache again.

Traps and so on was against U-boats. That turned into a battle of different technologies, but the difference was small enough so that one side could get ahead sometimes then the other (development of sonar and so on).

The only ship example I can think of that you're possibly thinking of is the sinking of the Hood by the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen which is nowhere near as unbalanced in size (and was also somewhat down to lousy design which meant both WWI and WWII British battlecruisers were apt to blow up when facing heavy guns).

A better example might be the Battle of the River Plate but that's pretty much equal technology-wise, just differences in deployment of it.

[Sejborg]

Conventional or unconventional the game disagrees with you. It can't be done.

[EnvyTB075]

A more current, and i'd say relevant, example.

Afghanistan.

[Twinzam.V]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

It is not that much different from ME2 in context of what is possible and what is not, the basic 'what if' scenarios. The only reason Shepard could even beat the human-reaper in ME2 is because Bioware decide to give it a weak spot (a win button) being the tubes you shoot of which they did not have to give him that weakness. In context of ME3 that weak spot they decided would be the crucible and catalyst. They are each the win buttons for each game from ME3 catalyst crucible or those red tubes in ME2 for the human reaper fight and the ship upgrades that they never had to write into the story if did not wish to from ME2 in order to beat collector ship. ME1 had just as much a win button in the dropping of shields on Sovereign when Saren dies which did not have to do either and that is no different in it's purpose is the win button for that game..

If the human-reaper never was given those weak spots, if they never created ship upgrades in ME2, if they never dropped Sovereigns shields when Saren dies...

 In the human-reaper case you could say that it wasnt complete, more than half was missing, no shields, etc.
In Soverign case is streetching a little but you could say maybe he didnt have time to reorganize is toughts or he suffered something similar as an OS crash because its more machine than organic, etc.
So maybe it could happen if proprely explaind or shown the reasons why there's a chance.
In ME3 they dont give good reasons for why cant we win except you just cant.
Shepard defeats Reapers (albeit smaller ones) on foot, what 3 times?
But related to the big ones they dont show reasons why not possible to win, like maybe new weapons or even assuming direct control over allied ships since everything is based on reaper technology, etc.
You just cant because they're strong, big, bad and even if you had your personal reaper fleet outnumbering them 10.000 to 1 you still cant and that's it.
Want a reason think for your self cuz the writers are tired.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[Someone With Mass]

Reorte wrote...

OK, make it WWI technology vs. todays. A WWI battleship could do immense damage against modern forces, if it could somehow get within range, find a target, and fire without being destroyed itself first.

Three dreadnoughts vs. one Reaper capital ship. Well, we're screwed then, aren't we? There certainly doesn't seem to be a 3:1 ratio of Council dreadnaughts to Reaper capital ships. And that's only thanks to the aforementioned Thanix weapons. Guerilla warfare isn't going to achieve very much, particularly against an enemy with no qualms about anything at all and whos ground forces consist of turning your own people against you anyway. If things get too awkward they can simply give up on the ground side and trash a planet from orbit.

As I've said before it would look franky ridiculous if we could win in a straightforward fight, or even impose substantial damage to Reaper forces, when every single cycle before has failed to do so. A conventional victory would make the entire premise of the Mass Effect plot stupid, instead of just its resolution.

Poor comparison, since I doubt a battleship like that can fire as fast as a Mass Effect dreadnought can, or has as many cannons. Nor do I think that the WWI guys could even begin to comprehend the technology of modern ships, let alone start to reverse-engineer it to use it on their own ships.

Also, Genghis Khan among other people have proved that you can win against a better equipped enemy if you outsmart them.

Which is possible for people in Mass Effect to do with the Reapers, since they don't have infinite wisdom as some seem to suggest they have.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:32 .

[The Spamming Troll]

vigil told me i could beat the reapers by uniting the galaxy.

whatever happened to that plot line?

[The Spamming Troll]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

If you say that we cant win because someone decided to write that we might have the power to face them but no we cant, i concede to that.
But the truth is we have everything going on our favor at the end of ME2 and then it's decided in ME3 that it doesnt count.
Real life wars were won with less, like 30.000 against 7.000 and guess who won.

And you might have everything going in your favor in a game of chess but when the other player stands up and cracks you around the skull with a chair that favor disappears quite fast as you lay unconscious. The whole what if nonsense is just silly. There is no 'what if' because of 'what is'.

They could of written ME3 in way that tips the battles in your favor all the way through, they could of written is as a cake walk if chosen to do so however they chose to write it in favor events wise on the side of the Reapers. Any battle, any event can go either way but in games, movies or books it will always go in favor of whatever side the writer or creator decides and they write the content around that. It is impossible to win conventionally in ME3 because they wrote it in a way that events would not allow it to be possible. Everything else is fanfiction.

The correct analogy would be, they flipped the table pointed at you and said "Ah ah. I win.".
It's just childish and for what?
Ok we cant win conventionaly because of the writers, but dont tell me to agree with "deep meaning ending", existencialism crap and whatnot compressed in the last 10 minutes of the game.
Other games do it better and even if you "dont get it" it doesnt hinder the game, because conventional victory was possible by the end of ME2 and the writers choose not to just because "stuff" and "things". <_<

It is not that much different from ME2 in context of what is possible and what is not, the basic 'what if' scenarios. The only reason Shepard could even beat the human-reaper in ME2 is because Bioware decide to give it a weak spot (a win button) being the tubes you shoot of which they did not have to give him that weakness. In context of ME3 that weak spot they decided would be the crucible and catalyst. They are each the win buttons for each game from ME3 catalyst crucible or those red tubes in ME2 for the human reaper fight and the ship upgrades that they never had to write into the story if did not wish to from ME2 in order to beat collector ship. ME1 had just as much a win button in the dropping of shields on Sovereign when Saren dies which did not have to do either and that is no different in it's purpose is the win button for that game..

If the human-reaper never was given those weak spots, if they never created ship upgrades in ME2, if they never dropped Sovereigns shields when Saren dies...

shoulda woulda coulda: the story of ME3.

in your opinion, from what youve seen here, do you think bioware choose the right ending? becase i feel like your just defending the ending, rather then argueing against different means of victory.

[Linkforlife]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

vigil told me i could beat the reapers by uniting the galaxy.

whatever happened to that plot line?

Artistic integrity.

[Armass81]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

vigil told me i could beat the reapers by uniting the galaxy.

whatever happened to that plot line?

Thats what you did, in a way.

Modifié par Armass81, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Someone With Mass]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

vigil told me i could beat the reapers by uniting the galaxy.

whatever happened to that plot line?

I'm pretty sure he just meant that Sovereign couldn't withstand the combined strength of the galaxy.

Even if he had meant the Reapers in general, how the hell would he know that?

[Twinzam.V]

Armass81 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

vigil told me i could beat the reapers by uniting the galaxy.

whatever happened to that plot line?

When did it ever say that?

When telling why the proteans didnt win.

[Armass81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Reorte wrote...

OK, make it WWI technology vs. todays. A WWI battleship could do immense damage against modern forces, if it could somehow get within range, find a target, and fire without being destroyed itself first.

Three dreadnoughts vs. one Reaper capital ship. Well, we're screwed then, aren't we? There certainly doesn't seem to be a 3:1 ratio of Council dreadnaughts to Reaper capital ships. And that's only thanks to the aforementioned Thanix weapons. Guerilla warfare isn't going to achieve very much, particularly against an enemy with no qualms about anything at all and whos ground forces consist of turning your own people against you anyway. If things get too awkward they can simply give up on the ground side and trash a planet from orbit.

As I've said before it would look franky ridiculous if we could win in a straightforward fight, or even impose substantial damage to Reaper forces, when every single cycle before has failed to do so. A conventional victory would make the entire premise of the Mass Effect plot stupid, instead of just its resolution.

Poor comparison, since I doubt a battleship like that can fire as fast as a Mass Effect dreadnought can, or has as many cannons. Nor do I think that the WWI guys could even begin to comprehend the technology of modern ships, let alone start to reverse-engineer it to use it on their own ships.

Also, Genghis Khan among other people have proved that you can win against a better equipped enemy if you outsmart them.

Which is possible for people in Mass Effect to do with the Reapers, since they don't have infinite wisdom as some seem to suggest they have.

Genghis Khan couldnt have even imagined something like the reapers.

Tier 1 tech versus Tier 2 isnt comparable, especially when Tier 2 has numerical superiority.

Modifié par Armass81, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:45 .

[Twinzam.V]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

vigil told me i could beat the reapers by uniting the galaxy.

whatever happened to that plot line?

I'm pretty sure he just meant that Sovereign couldn't withstand the combined strength of the galaxy.

Even if he had meant the Reapers in general, how the hell would he know that?

Maybe hes refering tactically. The reapers hitted the citadel first, loss of leadership, planets isolated, etc.
The inital attack would be something similar to the blitzkrieg. A rapid advance without opposition, by the time they knew what was going on was already late.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 22 décembre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Archonsg]

Sejborg wrote...

Conventional or unconventional the game disagrees with you. It can't be done.

You mean the writers and the script don't you?
Scripts *can* change. Just need ti be written so.
Given how bad and nonsensical the ending is now, its not like it'll take a leap of faith to write in a decent "refusal victory".

Then, ... There's "Art".

[Soultaker08]

nice troll and flame thread, 10/10 would bang again