230 réponses à ce sujet

[NRieh]

That is the main issue of DA2...who is Hawke? What is Hawke?

A person who can do anything, defying the law (city law and Chantry law), kill anyone, assassinate anyone, being a busy body in Templar business, in everybody business...even worse if Hawke is an apostate

Yeah, you just described what being a Main Hero usually looks like, gratz.

And also. I think, you should decide which subject you want to discuss here. It's either how PC Inquisitor (if confirmed) Mage gameplay may look like, or how you dislike DA2 treating Mage!Hawke. With those multiple colorful screens you just posted (Anders looks cool, by the way) it's more like latter.

edit: typos

Modifié par Nrieh, 23 décembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[Saibh]

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...

[quote]She won't live, because you're a mage. So if you go to Kirkwall, you have only your skin to worry about. Regardless, it doesn't matter if you think you wouldn't go to Kirkwall, anymore than it matters that you think you wouldn't want to fight the Blight as the Warden. Leandra says that they have money and power and Kirkwall, don't forget. They thought they were high-ranking nobility who had nothing to fear. If your Hawke wouldn't have gone, it hardly matters, because then the game wouldn't have happened.[/quote]The story is the same with Mage Hawke and non-Mage Hawke, the difference is only your sibling, the rest is the very same storyline, no different at all.[/quote]

The difference being that if go to Kirkwall as a mage, you have only your own skin to worry about. You're not bringing along a mage sister. Only your warrior brother and your normal mom.

[quote]In DA:O, yes, we may don't want to against the Blight, but we have Alistair who is also a Grey Warden, maybe we don't want, but we else we want to go? The story have some logic in it.[/quote]
What? This didn't make sense. Where else could you have gone in DAO, is that what you're saying? I'll point out the question is no more pertinent in DAII. Alistair is of little consequence to the player, unless the player got inordinately attached to him in the span of 12 hours. 

So tell me, then, why does it make more sense for your Warden to have no choice to continue fighting the Blight? At this point you don't actually know why the Wardens are so damn important, and you actually could have been Conscripted against your will, fighting the whole way there. Why do you suddenly just smile pretty and do what Duncan wanted once he dies? It makes no more sense, you're just willing to ignore it.

[quote]But in DA2, despite Leandra said there is a family fortune there, it is still a Templar city, at the time Leandra give the suggestion, we have Bethany a Mage too, we have two Mages here...apostate mages here...then we meet Wesley who directly threaten us...LOGICALLY Hawke still want to go to Kirkwal? Logically when arrive at Kirkwal and learned there is no family fortune, Hawke still want to stay?[/quote]
No, you have ONE mage. You either have Bethany, or you have Hawke. One or the other. If you care about your sister, it's actually possible less definsible to go to Kirkwall as a non-mage--because then you're risking your sister, not yourself. 

[quote]Yep, we cannot run away from being a grey Warden, it is not a big issue, if we run away we still nobody, and nobody will bother us (except maybe as ex-Circle mage, Templar will hunt us), still, if we don't become a grey Warden, it is not a big issue and the game don't progress. We must become a grey Warden, because we must took a part in a battle of ostagar.[/quote]This really was mostly gibberish. Tell me why it's more believable for a Warden who fought the Right of Conscription to keep fighting the Blight after Duncan died, than it is for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall because she has family and a title?

[quote]What weight for Mage Hawke to go to Kirkwal?[/quote]Why not? I already gave you plenty of reasons why you might want to--you have family there, you initially thought you had a fortune and power and prestige, and pretty much every country nearby is closing up to refugees. And, as I pointed out, you probably can't even afford to sail anywhere else. 

Other places have Templars, too, you realize, unless you thought it made more sense to go to the Imperium. Which I can't see your family agreeing to. 
[quote]- you said if we leave Bethany, she get caught, but if Hawke him/self is an apostate? He/she don't get caught[/quote]Yes, because after Act I, you become a powerful noblewoman. Bethany was already inducted into the Circle, you can't free her. But post Act I, you are rich and have quite a bit of sway with the Viscount. The people who do know
[quote]- even a child of Arlessa cannot defy Chantry law, a mage cannot inherit[/quote]This is when Meredith is cracking down. You are Champion at this point, and free from retribution. 
[quote]- Kirkwal don't need Hawke to duel with Arishok, nor even messing with Qunari[/quote]The Viscount needed Hawke to talk with the Qunari and Arishok, as the Arishok had some respect for Hawke at this point. He wouldn't talk to anyone but Hawke. 

[quote]- Champion? What is "Champion"? Does WWE champion or boxing champion are so powerful and can defy any laws in the world?[/quote]Are you a troll? This is a troll-like thing to say. The Champion of Kirkwall is a title. You are protector of the city. It's a special title conferred to Hawke to indicate that's the case. Remember, you save ALL of the nobility at the end of Act II--they are all grateful to you. 

[quote]Morrigan in DA:O tell a story how Templar kill a Chasind men because they a mistaken that Chasind man is an apostate.[/quote]You did not address what I said. I said that the templars who, in-story, discover you are an apostate in Act I have reason to keep it a secret, as you saved their lives. 

Modifié par Saibh, 23 décembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Icesong]

Nizaris1 wrote...

the subject is...based on how badly Mage Hawke is written in DA2, i predicted the same will going on with Mage Inquisitor in DA3

If this the only thing you're saying then I'm also a touch concerned about that. People in this thread making comments about having faith in BioWare sound clownish.

[NRieh]

Nizaris1 wrote...

the subject is...based on how badly Mage Hawke is written in DA2, i predicted the same will going on with Mage Inquisitor in DA3

1. You don't even 100% know whether PC IS an Inquisitor. As I said - it's just a self-maintained speculation, twitter thread has nothing about it.

2. Your logic implies that if something happened once - it inevitably will happen once and once again. It's...false (to put it mildly). E.g. you got a bottle of milk that was sour once. Does it mean all the past and future bottles of milk are to blame?

[Saibh]

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...

That is main reason not step into Kirkwal after learning there is nothing in Kirkwal but problems. Mom and carver can stay if they want, but Hawke must leave[/quote]

Yeah, and then the game would have abruptly ended. You do not have 100% control over your character. Just as you can't make a Warden forget the Blight and move to Orlais, you cannot make Hawke abandon her family. Just like you can't kick Alistair out of the party or kill him for following you, you HAVE to go to Kirkwall. I have already given you rational reasons why you CAN, and these reasons are why Hawke goes to Kirkwall. It doesn't matter what you do think your Hawke would do.

[quote]When we reach Ostagar, we can't escape, the story force us to join Grey Warden, yes...but considering if we don't join the order, it is nothing unless we are from Mage Origin or Dalish Elf, other than these two, we are nothing andd no one will ever bother...so the game must progress by joining the order. It is not the same with Mage Hawke forced into Kirkwal.[/quote]

So? So what if you're a Grey Warden? Why does that immediately mean you have to stop the Blight? Why not just leave then, start a new life somewhere else? Your character, unlike Hawke, is actually allowed to protest being a Grey Warden. You're allowed to make your motivation power, or heroics, or whatever--but why can't you leave the Wardens, as Alistair can? 

Until you can think of a rational reason why the Warden needs to stay with the Wardens, your arguments are just meaningless.

[quote]if we have Bethany, then we are not a Mage, and Bethany can stay at home, we are not forced to bring her along with us anywhere, there is logic in that. I never say non-Mage Hawke don't make sense, i say Mage Hawke don't make sense.[/quote]

Hawke always cares about her family. You don't get a choice in that. No game has ever made a character that 100% was yours. 

[quote]- A City full of Templar
- Got harassed by a Templar on the road (Wesley) is a good sign not going to Kirkwal
- No family fortune as soon as set foot on Kirkwal GALLOW
- Fight the owner of the estate, yes, the slavers are the rightful owner of that manor, we kill them in cold blood (just because they are slavers doesn't give us right to kill them in their home, the manor is no longer ours)
- problems, problems, and more problems in Kirkwal in Act 1[/quote]

There are templars everywhere. Wesley trying to take you into custody is going to happen anywhere you go short of Tevinter. 

Actually, no, the slavers were not the rightful owners of the manor. The manor was left to Leandra, not Gamlen. He sold it under her. 

I know you can think of reasons why you don't want to be there, but I can also think of reasons why you DO. These reasons are the reasons Hawke is choosing. YOU might not want to be there, but that doesn't matter. In this game, Hawke does. 

[quote]So by means, our riches is nothing because we cannot free Bethany...as a Mage Hawke how come those riches save us?[/quote]

Because she's already in the Circle. You can't extract her. However, you are never inducted into the Circle. Plus, she actually likes being there--she doesn't want to leave.

[quote]So being a Champion we can go to hell with everything? Wow...a Champion is more powerful than a king...[/quote]

The Champion is actually one of the most powerful figures in Kirkwall. I expressed to you clearly why you are able to get away with it. Yes, the Champion has a special status and this is acknowledged directly in game. 

[quote]Anyway...Redcliff..Connor...ring a bell?[/quote]

What about him? Your English is extremely poor.

[quote]yeah, but does that give any meaning? let say a group of terrorists asking for you and only you, in a hostage case, does that make you special? Does that make you can defy law and become a super powerful in USA? "i am powerful, because Osama ben Laden only want to talk to me"...in contra people will see you as agent of the terrorist. [/quote]

Except for they don't. You're trying to argue they should, but they DON'T. The Viscount does not want to threaten the Qunari because they are powerful--he wants you to reason with them. So you are safe.

[quote]if Hawke never have any dealing with the Qunari, do you think Kirkwal will get invaded?[/quote]

Kirkwall will get invaded? What? Your English is terrible, you know. Kirkwall getting attacked by Qunari in Act II is not Hawke's fault. 

[quote]Let say i save some nobility in Britain, does that make me special and can deny Britain law? i think you just want to rise the title "Champion" while that title is not so great. Okay, hawke save some pathetic nobles but the whole city is in ruin...it was Hawke who FAILED negotiation with Arishok that lead to the invasion...remember?[/quote]

Uh, actually, your nobility in medieval England WOULD have given you some power to ignore law. And powerful people do ignore the law in modern times, yes. 

Hawke didn't fail the negotiation, the Qunari were antagonized into attack. Even if she had, it doesn't matter because the nobility don't care. You saved their lives. 

[quote]There is no reason for a police officer to let robbers go just because those robbers help him.[/quote]

Stop pic spamming. 

And maybe some police officers will--these templars DO let you go. You seem to be ignoring the fact that these characters ARE willing to do the things you claim they shouldn't. And we live in a more lawful time than they would have.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I think Bioware is by now aware of this, and will do something with mage class - probably if we are mage, then we won't have background with "anti-chantry flavor" or some blood magic addiction. Though i am sure we can become rogue during the game (and become a blood mage), in similar fashion like Inquisitors in W40k do.

Its even possible, that mage class will be replaced by something new with spells - or be a Force Mage right off the start, with new jedi-like spells (meaning mainly telekinesis)

[Boss Fog]

Nizaris1 wrote...

1. You don't even 100% know whether PC IS an Inquisitor. As I said - it's just a self-maintained speculation, twitter thread has nothing about it.

if the PC is not the Inquisitor, then what? i believe the PC is the Inquisitor...at least that is the original idea unless they toss it away

2. Your logic implies that if something happened once - it inevitably will happen once and once again. It's...false (to put it mildly). E.g. you got a bottle of milk that was sour once. Does it mean all the past and future bottles of milk are to blame?

History always repeat itself...what once happened, no reason for it not happening again...

1.  You or anyone else that isn't working on DA3 doesn't even know who the inquisition is or who they will be potentially working for; so perhaps you should just stop assuming it's a pro chantry org.

2.  That logic is wrong and isn't even the correct phrase.  No, history does NOT always repeat itself.  Tossing out mis worded quotes made by Karl Marx doesn't make your point any more valid; only less so.

[MaggieSh]

Saibh, I'd just like to say, I love you. You say all the things I think of when reading Nizaris's posts.

[XX-Pyro]

MaggieSh wrote...

Saibh, I'd just like to say, I love you. You say all the things I think of when reading Nizaris's posts.

Agreed. Thanks for taking one for the team so that I don't have to. <3

[NRieh]

if the PC is not the Inquisitor, then what? i believe the PC is the Inquisitor...at least that is the original idea unless they toss it away

You have no idea what BW's original idea is or was. Deal with it. And something tells me you should've titled the thread "I believe the PC is Inquisitor".

History always repeat itself...what once happened, no reason for it not happening again...

Cool! So, anyone building relationship with someone who already broke up with someone in his past is inevitably doomed to divorse...what a pity!..

You make your own assumptions and build some kind of logic around them. Occam definitely objects.

[Steppenwolf]

The Inquisition is not a branch of the Seekers, it's not full of Templars, and it has never been either of those things. The Inquisition was originally it's own group that hunted demons, abominations, blood mages and malificars. The Inquisition then joined the Chantry and was essentially split into the Templars and Seekers.

[bombspy]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I am concerned on how Mage Inquisitor would be, considering how badly Mage Hawk is written in DA2, i think it will be a major disaster in DA:I

Inquisitor work for the Seeker, meaning work with an organization established by the Chantry.

- How come they hire a mage?
- How it will blend with Blood Magic specialization?
- How people will co-orporate with an Inquisitor that is also a Mage?
- How people perceive a Mage that is also an Inquisitor?

The world in DA3 is the the world where Mage and Templar is fighting eachother, so if the main character that is an Inquisitor sent by the Chantry, also a Mage, how it will blend with anything?

Who says you will be part of the inquisition in DA:I? I did not read this anywhere.

The Inquisition will be a main factor in the storyline, but maybe one will be able to oppose them. I'd rather fight them than being one of them. Or at least I'd like to have the choice to pick a side like in The Witcher 2.

Modifié par bombspy, 23 décembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[DarkSpiral]

Good grief. Not merely wild, but BASELESS speculation.

Don't you ever get tired of people pointing out your fallacies of logic, Nizaris?

[Dhiro]

BasilKarlo wrote...

The Inquisition is not a branch of the Seekers, it's not full of Templars, and it has never been either of those things. The Inquisition was originally it's own group that hunted demons, abominations, blood mages and malificars. The Inquisition then joined the Chantry and was essentially split into the Templars and Seekers.

Pretty much. We have no idea of how DA: I's Inquisition will behave. For all we know they may be an independent group that is trying to ressurect the ideals of the Inquisition of old or something, since somebody has to clean up the mess the war is leaving and protect the people.

[Zerker]

Who says you will be part of the inquisition in DA:I? I did not read this anywhere.

It was said that you play an inquisitor, if I remember correct.

[Direwolf0294]

They could always have being a mage not as a class but something that happens to all players during the course of the story. Like being a Jedi in KoTOR. You start off as just a rogue of warrior Inquisitor, at some point in the story you learn you have magic or perhaps you're gifted with magic and then it's up to the player whether they want to play the class as a mage, keep on playing as just a rogue or warrior or try and combine the magic with their rogue and warrior stuff and play as a sort of hybrid class. Even if you do keep playing as just a rogue or a warrior you'd still have the magic so all characters would treat you as a mage, though you'd of course be given the option of denying you're a mage or refusing to believe you have magic.

Modifié par Direwolf0294, 23 décembre 2012 - 10:51 .

[Wulfram]

Maddok900 wrote...

It was said that you play an inquisitor, if I remember correct.

Was in the leaked survey.  Pretty sure it hasn't been officially confirmed anywhere.

[HTTP 404]

Ultimashade wrote...

The Inquis. does not work with the Chantry or the templars...or even the mages. So it doesn't matter.

yes, people should ignore the fact you are a mage in da3

[Steppenwolf]

The leaked surveys are the only indications we have of playing The Inquisitor, but if you're going off the surveys then you also have to go off the story they tell as well.
According to the surveys the new Inquisition is formed after a massive, magical explosion levels the area where peace talks between the mages, chantry and Templars were about to take place and rips open the veil. You're then recruited into the Inquisition and are tasked with investigating the cause of the attack and finding a way to stop it.
So it would seem to me that someone being a mage would be very secondary to their ability to get the job done. What Templar is going to try to impede the Inquisitor that's trying to save the world?

[d4eaming]

I think the entire argument is just plain silly. You either accept the premise, or you don't. You accepted that you had absolutely no choice but to stop the blight. My Warden was conscripted involuntarily and hated every moment of it. He wanted nothing to do with it, he wanted to stay in his clan even though it meant he'd die. He didn't want to be a savior or a warrior, he didn't want to defend the entire land. Why couldn't he just say sod it and disappear into the distance? He told Alistair that's what he wanted to do, but it still wasn't an in-game option. The premise of DAO was "you stop the blight." You can't excuse having no option to leave any more than you can excuse Hawke having no choice but to go to Kirkwall.

The premise of DA2 is Hawke's "rise to power" (whether or not it was implemented in a way everyone agrees with is moot- that was the point of the game, full stop). Hawke had no where else to go. The other kingdoms/cities/whatever were refusing refugees. You barely get into Kirkwall as it is, and you get sold into indentured servitude in order to do so. You have no money to take another ship out, and even if you did, no other place would let you enter. You went to Kirkwall because you had no home left.

Meridith even tells Hawke she knows what he/his sister is but she ignores it because she has more important things to deal with, and he's earned some immunity by earning wealth and prestige. It happens in real life all the time. If you have money, you don't have to go to jail in some circumstances. A lot of shady politicians get away with a lot of horrible things because of their wealth and prestige- Hawke does the same exact thing.

You're willing to excuse DAO railroading you into saving the blight, but you're not willing to excuse DA2 into railroading you into Kirkwall. You seem to hate DA2, so that really seems to be the only basis that you'll excuse Origins but not 2, and you're not even comparing them equally. You had no more choice in your destiny in DAO than you had in DA2 and saying otherwise is sheer fantasy.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...


[quote]So tell me, then, why does it make more sense for your Warden to have no choice to continue fighting the Blight? At this point you don't actually know why the Wardens are so damn important, and you actually could have been Conscripted against your will, fighting the whole way there. Why do you suddenly just smile pretty and do what Duncan wanted once he dies? It makes no more sense, you're just willing to ignore it.[/quote]When we reach Ostagar, we can't escape, the story force us to join Grey Warden, yes...but considering if we don't join the order, it is nothing unless we are from Mage Origin or Dalish Elf, other than these two, we are nothing andd no one will ever bother...so the game must progress by joining the order. It is not the same with Mage Hawke forced into Kirkwal.[/quote]

It is exactly the same.  Once you reach Kirkwall you can't escape, the story forces you to stay.  I you don't stay you're nobody and no one will ever bother...so the game must progress by staying in Kirkwall.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...


[quote]Why not? I already gave you plenty of reasons why you might want to--you have family there, you initially thought you had a fortune and power and prestige, and pretty much every country nearby is closing up to refugees. And, as I pointed out, you probably can't even afford to sail anywhere else. [/quote]- A City full of Templar
- Got harassed by a Templar on the road (Wesley) is a good sign not going to Kirkwal
- No family fortune as soon as set foot on Kirkwal GALLOW
- Fight the owner of the estate, yes, the slavers are the rightful owner of that manor, we kill them in cold blood (just because they are slavers doesn't give us right to kill them in their home, the manor is no longer ours)
- problems, problems, and more problems in Kirkwal in Act 1

Why not just leave Kirkwal and going anywhere else?[/quote]

Because nowhere else in the Free Marches is going to be any better, you just ran from Fereldan, you don't exactly have the money to travel anywhere farther than that, and unlike Kirkwall you don't have family who will not only ensure you get into the city (not a guarantee anywhere else) but will house you once inside.  Gamlen might not be the best of relatives but he's better than nothing.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...



[quote]Yes, because after Act I, you become a powerful noblewoman. Bethany was already inducted into the Circle, you can't free her. But post Act I, you are rich and have quite a bit of sway with the Viscount. The people who do know[/quote]So by means, our riches is nothing because we cannot free Bethany...as a Mage Hawke how come those riches save us?[/quote]

Bethany is taken to the Circle before you can sell your loot, so your riches can't keep her from going in and there's no way to buy somebody out.  Furthermore Bethany wants to be in the Circle, you ever try to "rescue" someone from somewhere they want to be?

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...



[quote]The Viscount needed Hawke to talk with the Qunari and Arishok, as the Arishok had some respect for Hawke at this point. He wouldn't talk to anyone but Hawke. [/quote]yeah, but does that give any meaning? let say a group of terrorists asking for you and only you, in a hostage case, does that make you special? Does that make you can defy law and become a super powerful in USA? "i am powerful, because Osama ben Laden only want to talk to me"...in contra people will see you as agent of the terrorist.[/quote]
 
Realistically speaking Hawke can't officially defy the law until after the Qunari are dealt with.  So in your example if terrorists refused to talk to anyone but you, and then you killed them all, yeah I'm sure you'd get some preferrential treatment.

Prior to that Hawke can defy the law because he or she is capable of killing anybody sent to arrest him or her and Aveline, who's running the guard, knows that.  Hawke's kind of like Batman in that the person running the police knows that you're an overall positive force and not worth the effort of bringing in or taking down.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...
if Hawke never have any dealing with the Qunari, do you think Kirkwal will get invaded?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...



[quote]Are you a troll? This is a troll-like thing to say. The Champion of Kirkwall is a title. You are protector of the city. It's a special title conferred to Hawke to indicate that's the case. Remember, you save ALL of the nobility at the end of Act II--they are all grateful to you. [/quote]Let say i save some nobility in Britain, does that make me special and can deny Britain law? i think you just want to rise the title "Champion" while that title is not so great. Okay, hawke save some pathetic nobles but the whole city is in ruin...it was Hawke who FAILED negotiation with Arishok that lead to the invasion...remember?[/quote]

Champion is a title in the Free Marches that carries a lot of wait.  We don't have anything comparable in real life but Hawke's a hero, that earns him/her a lot of slack.

As for the invasion thing it was technically Aveline who failed.  It was her negotiation she just brought Hawke along in the hopes he/she could smooth things over.  Besides which the cause of the invasion was the theft of the book and the Qunari's disgust with the state of affairs in Kirkwall, Aveline's little incident was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote..



[quote]You did not address what I said. I said that the templars who, in-story, discover you are an apostate in Act I have reason to keep it a secret, as you saved their lives. [/quote]There is no reason for a police officer to let robbers go just because those robbers help him.
[/quote]

You're not familliar with the concept of leniency in exchange for cooperation are you?  Police regularly let a lot worse than thieves go in exchange for assisstance.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 23 décembre 2012 - 11:52 .

[Sol Downer]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

The Inquis. does not work with the Chantry or the templars...or even the mages. So it doesn't matter.

yes, people should ignore the fact you are a mage in da3

That's not what I said, nor do I agree with your statement.