230 réponses à ce sujet

[MaggieSh]

Just a note for that one particular bit about cops never letting robbers go 'just because those robbers help him' just in case Nizaris wants to be stubborn about it. Cops regularly work with lesser drug dealers to bring down the bigger fish. It happens all the time. As in the case of Ser Thrask, he works with Hawke, a mage who he has seen do good, to bring in some mages that he knows are not doing good because he wants to do so without creating conflict.

It's the concept of the bigger picture, the greater good, which I honestly don't think you'll understand as you've shown yourself to be rather narrow sighted.

If my usage of metaphors confused you, say so and I'll use simpler English, because I think you are (perhaps willfully) misunderstanding some of us, as your English appears to be choppy.

[HTTP 404]

d4eaming wrote...

I think the entire argument is just plain silly. You either accept the premise, or you don't. You accepted that you had absolutely no choice but to stop the blight. My Warden was conscripted involuntarily and hated every moment of it. He wanted nothing to do with it, he wanted to stay in his clan even though it meant he'd die. He didn't want to be a savior or a warrior, he didn't want to defend the entire land. Why couldn't he just say sod it and disappear into the distance? He told Alistair that's what he wanted to do, but it still wasn't an in-game option. The premise of DAO was "you stop the blight." You can't excuse having no option to leave any more than you can excuse Hawke having no choice but to go to Kirkwall.

The premise of DA2 is Hawke's "rise to power" (whether or not it was implemented in a way everyone agrees with is moot- that was the point of the game, full stop). Hawke had no where else to go. The other kingdoms/cities/whatever were refusing refugees. You barely get into Kirkwall as it is, and you get sold into indentured servitude in order to do so. You have no money to take another ship out, and even if you did, no other place would let you enter. You went to Kirkwall because you had no home left.

Meridith even tells Hawke she knows what he/his sister is but she ignores it because she has more important things to deal with, and he's earned some immunity by earning wealth and prestige. It happens in real life all the time. If you have money, you don't have to go to jail in some circumstances. A lot of shady politicians get away with a lot of horrible things because of their wealth and prestige- Hawke does the same exact thing.

You're willing to excuse DAO railroading you into saving the blight, but you're not willing to excuse DA2 into railroading you into Kirkwall. You seem to hate DA2, so that really seems to be the only basis that you'll excuse Origins but not 2, and you're not even comparing them equally. You had no more choice in your destiny in DAO than you had in DA2 and saying otherwise is sheer fantasy.

whether you intended it, you bring up a good point.  As a gamer buying a game, we essentially have bought (or attempt to) into the story and what the goals of the main character will be.  Otherwise we don't play the game or finish it.  I wasn't the biggest fan of the main story of DA2 but I bought the game and role played Hawke towards the game's intended goal.

[Saibh]

Nizaris1 wrote...

There are too many to quote, but i summarize it

In DA:O the Warden is from many background/Origin, the motivation to join Grey Warden is different

- Cousland, the only way to revenge on Howe is to join the order
- Dalish, joining the order is the cure of his/her "illness"
- Mage, the only way not to become tranquil and apostate hunted down by Templar is by joining the order
- Dwarf, the only way to survive the surface is to join the order
- City Elf, he/she is in debt with Dincan who save his/her skin

And your motivation for going to Kirkwall as a Hawke is that you are nobility there and you have family.

No one is debating that you should have been given another option than become a Warden. We are asking why you think it's okay that your never given an option to give up on the Blight?

You seem to misunderstanding people: it's not about motivation to become a Warden. It's about motivation to stop the Blight. I think you are purposefully ignoring parts of people's arguments. 

These are the motivation to become a Grey Warden, there is logic when the game force you to become a Grey Warden and stop the Blight.

After Ostagar, and once you are a Warden, why can't you simply go to the forest and live as a hermit? What if your character doesn't want to fight the Blight? 

- what is the motivation of Mage Hawk to go to Kirkwal?

You have family there and riches. Your power will make you immune to templars. You only find out this isn't the case once you're there.

- what motivation for Hawk to stay in Kirkwal?

Once you are there you have no money to leave and the other countries are no longer accepting refugees. You have no where else to go. Your family connections also allow you to join a gang of criminals who can protect you from templars, something that you don't get in other cities.

- what motivation for Hawk to become a hero fighting Qunari?

Not wanting the Qunari to attack your new estate, not wanting to be thrown into the Circle, getting into the Viscount's good graces. Also money and prestige.

- what motivation for Hawk to deal with Kirkwal problem?

Personal glory, money, love of battle, respect for the community, gaining the nobility's favor, keeping your family safe, doing favors for friends, because you're being threatened, because you want to, because Andraste told you so, etc. There's an infinite number of reasons. 

Who is Hawk? he/she have no authority over anything, even after become a Champion, he/she have no authority over Templar and Mages

The title Champion gives Hawke authority just like the title Viscount could. You forget it is Meredith who grants the title in the first place.

Not to mention that everybody seems to DODGE the fact that Mage Hawk is badly written in DA2, and only want to ****** me off with replies to defend DA2

Nobody is dodging anything. You have said why you think mage Hawke is badly written, but you are being extremely inconsistent. People here have addressed literally every point you've made in their replies, but you keep ignoring them. 

Let me say this extremely plainly, because maybe it's a language barrier issue:

1. Hawke wants to go to Kirkwall because her family is nobility there. Nobility = power & protection. Nobility are safe from Templars. 
2. When you arrive at Kirkwall, you find you are poor, but you can't go anywhere else. You must stay. 
3. You eventually get your money and lands back, meaning it's safer for you in Kirkwall than another Templar-run country where you have no power.
4. You become Champion, a very powerful person that cannot be touched. 

We KNOW that Hawke can have a reason to avoid Kirkwall. That doesn't matter. All that matters is that you DO have a reason to stay. I have given you all of them. 

Why does the Warden have to go to Redcliffe, the Dalish, the Circle, or Orzammar? Why can't you kick Alistair out or kill him? Why can't you try to kill Duncan? Why can't you abandon your quest to stop the Blight? 

I know you can think of reasons why you wouldn't want to. That's not the point. The point is that there IS motivation. You must accept the premise of the game, provided there is motivation. And there is. 

Modifié par Saibh, 24 décembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[Dhiro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

There are too many to quote, but i summarize it

In DA:O the Warden is from many background/Origin, the motivation to join Grey Warden is different

- Cousland, the only way to revenge on Howe is to join the order
- Dalish, joining the order is the cure of his/her "illness"
- Mage, the only way not to become tranquil and apostate hunted down by Templar is by joining the order
- Dwarf, the only way to survive the surface is to join the order
- City Elf, he/she is in debt with Duncan who save his/her skin

These are the motivation to become a Grey Warden, there is logic when the game force you to become a Grey Warden and stop the Blight.

But
- what is the motivation of Mage Hawk to go to Kirkwal?
- what motivation for Hawk to stay in Kirkwal?
- what motivation for Hawk to become a hero fighting Qunari?
- what motivation for Hawk to deal with Kirkwal problem?

Why not Hawke go to Tevinter? Fenryl go to Tevinter and mastering his skill

Who is Hawk? he/she have no authority over anything, even after become a Champion, he/she have no authority over Templar and Mages

Not to mention that everybody seems to DODGE the fact that Mage Hawk is badly written in DA2, and only want to ****** me off with replies to defend DA2

Some time ago everybody are excited playing as the Inquisitor in DA3, now when i bring up this issue, everybody want to deny being the Inquisitor in DA3, what the hell you guys?

Origins also had forced choices, I'm not sure why you're acting as if it only happened in DA II. No one is trying to make you mad, yo. People are just presenting and defending their opinions, as they always do.

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...
In DA:O the Warden is from many background/Origin, the motivation to join Grey Warden is different

- Cousland, the only way to revenge on Howe is to join the order
- Dalish, joining the order is the cure of his/her "illness"
- Mage, the only way not to become tranquil and apostate hunted down by Templar is by joining the order
- Dwarf, the only way to survive the surface is to join the order
- City Elf, he/she is in debt with Duncan who save his/her skin

My Warden had no motivation to be the Warden. He was a Dalish elf who would rather have died than be a warden. Or, after being FORCED to become a warden (he refused, vocally, and said so every single time the option came up that he did not choose to be a Grey Warden, Duncan had to drag him from his clan), why couldn't he just say screw it, go find his clan again, and ignore the blight?

Oh yeah, because that wasn't the premise of the story.

Nizaris1 wrote...

But
- what is the motivation of Mage Hawk to go to Kirkwal?
- what motivation for Hawk to stay in Kirkwal?
- what motivation for Hawk to become a hero fighting Qunari?
- what motivation for Hawk to deal with Kirkwal problem?

-because he had family there, and presumed wealth
-his family was still there and he was responsible for them
-he didn't choose to fight the Qunari, it was forced on him just like the Warden was forced to become the Warden. Or, his motivation was surviving the attack on the city, and becoming the Champion afterword was a reward, not a goal. He didn't want to be a hero, he simply had no choice
-his family was still there, or after his mother died, his friends and home were still there. people remain in crappy cities all the time because that is just where their family is, or it is where they grew up, or it's where their friends are

Nizaris1 wrote...

Why not Hawke go to Tevinter? Fenryl go to Tevinter and mastering his skill

He had more potential to become a slave there than a magister. Feynrial had innate power. Hawke did not. Hawke's magic was nothing special, and therefore not enough to prevent him from becoming a magister's pet. Tevinters took other mages as slaves.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Who is Hawk? he/she have no authority over anything, even after become a
Champion, he/she have no authority over Templar and Mages

Of course he didn't have authority. That's not what the Champion is. What he had was immunity. His wealth and status protected him, not necessarily his power.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Not to mention that everybody seems to DODGE the fact that Mage Hawk is
badly written in DA2-

Your personal opinion does not a fact make. I have no problem with how mage Hawke is written, and I've had about 5 of them so far. They certainly could have made more nods to the fact he was a mage, but not doing so does not make his writing bad.

Nizaris1 wrote...

-, and only want to ****** me off with replies to
defend DA2

:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:HAHAHAHAHA. Oh honey, you are not that special that we're only defending DA2 just to ****** you off. You are not that important nor that mighty that anything we say is a personal affront directly to you. Full of yourself much?

Nizaris1 wrote...

Some time ago everybody are excited playing as the Inquisitor in DA3,
now when i bring up this issue, everybody want to deny being the
Inquisitor in DA3, what the hell you guys?

That's what you're taking out of this discussion? You really enjoy putting your own spin on other people's words, don't you? I don't care if my character will be an Inquisitor or not, I trust Bioware to make it work whether or not he is, and whether or not he's a mage. Nothing you've said will make a mage Inquisitor a problem, and it's not our fault that you can't imagine a plausible scenario. You will either accept the premise BW lays out for the character, and play the game, or you refused the premise BW lays out and not play the game. Personally, once more information comes out, I doubt sincerily that I will have any problem whatsoever reconciling a mage Inquisitor.

[Saibh]

Nizaris1 wrote...

And your motivation for going to Kirkwall as a Hawke is that you are nobility there and you have family.

So that is what the game is about?

It is a potential motivation for Hawke. The game is about Hawke's rise to power and the events surrounding it. But you asked why can a mage Hawke want to go to Kirkwall, and I told you. I know you can think of reasons why Hawke wouldn't. I am giving you a reason why Hawke would, and pointing out Dragon Age: Origins didn't let you say 'no', either.

Also, you ignored everything I said. I'm going to be very cross if your reply is just restating your past points by ignoring all of my counterpoints, you know. If you do, I'm going to quote myself saying this everywhere you go, following you no matter where you turn.

[d4eaming]

@Saibh I swear I did not see your reply, it was posted while I was writing mine, but it is funny how we hit nearly the same exact points

[XX-Pyro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Ok...if you guys have no motivations to become a Grey warden in DA:O, why bother playing the game?

the game is about being a Grey warden and stop the Blight.

What DA2 is about?

I know DA3 is about Inquisitor investigating Mage-Templar war. At least that is the motivation.

DA2 is about Hawke's rise to power in Kirkwall (and arguably the Free Marches). His motivation is to keep his family alive. His motivation in Act 1 is to regain wealth/nobility, his motivation in Act 2 is to help the city in ways he can via the Viscounts requests, and his motivation in Act 3 is to keep the city calm. There's 3 motivations throughout his lifetime.

If you have no motivation to play Hawke through his rise to power (which I might add, was the basis of their marketing) why bother playing DA2?

[Sol Downer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Ok...if you guys have no motivations to become a Grey warden in DA:O, why bother playing the game?

the game is about being a Grey warden and stop the Blight.

What DA2 is about?

I know DA3 is about Inquisitor investigating Mage-Templar war. At least that is the motivation.

Now you're stretching it. The thing is, it's all FORCED on you. You don't get to make the choice, you didn't choose wardenship, and you didn't choose to be the Champion. DA2 was about Hawke, that's your motivation, okay? Your motivation is making Hawke powerful in every meaning of the word. Same with the Warden.

[Dhiro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

DA2 is nothing other than a story of a guy or girl who mess with everything...that is all

even for that, Mage Hawk is badly written for that role.

Hawk is not the hero, he/she is the one who DESTROY KIRKWAL

...Yes? DA II isn't the history of a bigger-than-life hero that saves the world.

The Warden was the one who saved the world after killing the Archdemon. Hawke is just an excepcional person. You speak as if not being a world-shaking hero was inherently bad.

[XX-Pyro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

right...the issue now is not about forcing or not forcing...the issue is Mage Hawk is BADLY WRITTEN in DA2, and that will happen in DA3

Mage Warden is beautifully written in DA:O

No he's not because my Mage Warden didn't want to go help the struggle against the Blight. What motivation did he have? None. It was terribad writing not letting me avoid the whole Ostagar mission altogether. 

[Saibh]

Nizaris1 wrote...

DA2 is nothing other than a story of a guy or girl who mess with everything...that is all

even for that, Mage Hawk is badly written for that role.

Hawk is not the hero, he/she is the one who DESTROY KIRKWAL

So, you acknowledge there is motivation for Hawke to be in Kirkwall? Now you're just complaining that Hawke wasn't the Big Damn Hero. 

I agree that Hawke isn't exactly a savior--but this isn't because she is actively doing evil, it is because she has no control over anything. She can't stop Meredith from going crazy, Anders from blowing up the Chantry, the Qunari from attacking, the Viscount or his son from dying, Isabela from stealing the book, and so on. Hawke does not have the power to stop these things, only contain them. DAII is not telling the story of an all-knowing, all-powerful protagonist. You may not like that in your video games, but that is not inherently bad writing.

Nizaris1 wrote...

right...the issue now is not about forcing or not forcing...the issue is Mage Hawk is BADLY WRITTEN in DA2, and that will happen in DA3

I'm going to regret asking, but: how? And I think if your answer is just restating your previous points, you will actually succeed in making me crazy. Like shooting Barbara in the spine.

Modifié par Saibh, 24 décembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Sol Downer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

right...the issue now is not about forcing or not forcing...the issue is Mage Hawk is BADLY WRITTEN in DA2, and that will happen in DA3

Mage Warden is beautifully written in DA:O

Alright, instead of you trying to tell me what makes Hawke bad, tell me what makes the Warden better. I'll dispute your points and we'll see what you think.

[Dhiro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

nothing happen in Kirkwal if Hawke don't go to Kirkwal...this is simple, the story is about how Hawke mess up everything, if you guys don't realize that then you guys are deluded...it started with Cassandra interrogating Varric on Hawke involvement in Mage-Templar war, there you got it, Hawke is the center of everything, everything is Hawke fault

even for that role, Mage Hawke is badly written for that role, illogical

Why?

[XX-Pyro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

nothing happen in Kirkwal if Hawke don't go to Kirkwal...this is simple, the story is about how Hawke mess up everything, if you guys don't realize that then you guys are deluded...it started with Cassandra interrogating Varric on Hawke involvement in Mage-Templar war, there you got it, Hawke is the center of everything, everything is Hawke fault

even for that role, Mage Hawke is badly written for that role, illogical

Yes it is illogical for a MageHawke to start/support a rebellion of mages when that particular Hawke believes their cause is just. Completely illogical. 

[Sol Downer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

nothing happen in Kirkwal if Hawke don't go to Kirkwal...this is simple, the story is about how Hawke mess up everything, if you guys don't realize that then you guys are deluded...it started with Cassandra interrogating Varric on Hawke involvement in Mage-Templar war, there you got it, Hawke is the center of everything, everything is Hawke fault

even for that role, Mage Hawke is badly written for that role, illogical

Incorrect. The Qunari already landed in Kirkwall if you weren't paying attention. They still would've attacked, the only difference being that everybody would've died. If they somehow survived that event the Mage-Templar conflict would've still been sparked by the death of the Viscount. Meredith was at Orsino's throat after that, and THEN everything would've been destroyed. Anders was still in Kirkwall if you don't recall. Hawke SAVED that city.

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Ok...if you guys have no motivations to become a Grey warden in DA:O, why bother playing the game?

the game is about being a Grey warden and stop the Blight.

What DA2 is about?

I know DA3 is about Inquisitor investigating Mage-Templar war. At least that is the motivation.

I "bothered" to play Origins because I accepted the premise that I could not simply leave and not do it. So I came up with a plausible reason why I would (my character adored Alistair and couldn't leave him alone with all that responsibility, no matter how much he personally hated it, and once he helped out his friend, he ran off with Zevran).

DA2 is about regaining the wealth and nobility of the Amells and rising to power. Then he has to hold onto that, and defeating the Qunari is a direct action to do so. Gaining the title of Champion is incidental- it is a reward bestowed by Meredith, it is not something Hawke saught out. But gaining that title gave him the immunity that he needed to remain safe within the city. His motivation to stay there is, it is his home, and he is no longer at risk because of his wealth and status within the city, giving him his reason to remain during Act3 where his friends screw crap up and start a war.

The whole point is watching Hawke regain his nobility. The point is also watching the events that led up to a massive civil war. Hawke simply happened to be in the right place at the right time, through a series of seemingly random events that are all interconnected.

Even if he tells Anders to get lost or never talks to him or whatever, Anders still does what he wants to do, leaving Hawke to fight for his life. Incidentally, my first Hawke killed Anders for what he did and sided with the Templars at the end. Motivation? Staying the f--- alive. He is, once again, rewared with a title (Viscount).

Even still, DA2 is a different kind of story than DAO. DAO is an epic, with a traditional hero that traverses grand and disparate lands to conquer an evil.

DA2 is about how a common man, through a series of seemingly random events and pure (terrible?) luck, that just happened to be there, who just happened to have a friend who blew up the Chantry. DA2 was never an epic, in the traditional sense. It's the common man's rags-to-riches story. What is the common person's motivation? To be safe, to gain wealth and status. How that happens, and what other incidences happen along the way are simply side-stories that happen as he plods along to his ultimate goal of safety and regained wealth.

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...

right...the issue now is not about forcing or not forcing...the issue is Mage Hawk is BADLY WRITTEN in DA2, and that will happen in DA3

Mage Warden is beautifully written in DA:O

Stop moving the sodding goalposts when someone dismantles your atrocious arguments and admit that you are wrong about DA2. Hate the game if that's what you want to do, but your personal issue with Hawke's motivations are extremely thin.