230 réponses à ce sujet

[Sol Downer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

yup illogical...

- he/she freely in and out Kirkwal as apostate
- freely mess with Templar business as an apostate
- freely live in Kirkwal as apostate
- freely killing, assassinate, defying the law, do what he/she wilt as an apostate

Bioware only can justify that in DA3 by saying "Varric is lying"

Do you know how many apostates are in that city? The number breaches hundreds. Another one doesn't matter.

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...

nothing happen in Kirkwal if Hawke don't go to Kirkwal...this is simple, the story is about how Hawke mess up everything, if you guys don't realize that then you guys are deluded...it started with Cassandra interrogating Varric on Hawke involvement in Mage-Templar war, there you got it, Hawke is the center of everything, everything is Hawke fault...only that Varric trying to make Hawke look like a hero

even for that role, Mage Hawke is badly written for that role, illogical

If Hawke didn't go to Kirkwall....

-Cullen would probably have been murdered by Wilmod (Hawke didn't save him)
-with Wilmod escaping, more Templar recruits would have turned into abominations
-The Qunari would have sacked Kirkwall (they would have been angry about their stolen book and attacked eventually anyway- and maybe even sooner had Hawke not interacted with him)
-Bartrand and Varric would have still made their Deep Roads run and still found the relic (it might have taken longer to get the funding, but it would have happened anyway)
-Meredith would have trainquiled more mages, likely
-Anders would have still blown up the chantry, leading to Meredith killing all of the mages (since no one was strong enough to oppose her), and the Templar abominations would have gone free

The world would have continued along its path. Hawke just happened to be there when it occured. Hawke not going there would have resulted in Kirkwall's ruin just as much as his presence did- and probably worse because no one would have stopped the Qunari. They had killed the Viscount and were on the verge of killing the entire nobility because no one could oppose them.

If you're mad because Hawke wasn't an epic hero like the Warden, instead just some random dude who happened to be there when the civil war started, well then boo hoo.  You hate the game, so move on already.

Modifié par d4eaming, 24 décembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[Sol Downer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

-Cullen would probably have been murdered by Wilmod (Hawke didn't save him)

Wilmord become abomination because Hawke is there

-with Wilmod escaping, more Templar recruits would have turned into abominations

Like it is easy thing to do, if so, the Templar is so dumb

The Qunari would have sacked Kirkwall (they would have been angry about their stolen book and attacked eventually anyway- and maybe even sooner had Hawke not interacted with him)

or maybe they manage to catch Isabella, they have been in Kirkwal for 6 years. They attack Kirkwal because Hawke failed in negotiation. The tension between Qunari and Kirkwal is because of sister Petrice, and Hawke involve in it

-Bartrand and Varric would have still made their Deep Roads run and still found the relic (it might have taken longer to get the funding, but it would have happened anyway)

hawke who funded the expedition, Hawke who found the way to Premival Thaig, Hawke who give th lyrium idol to bartrabd, none of this happen if hawke don't go to kirkwal

-Meredith would have trainquiled more mages, likely

it is all Anders bull****, Meredith and Grand cleric rejected the idea of "Tranquil solution"

-Anders would have still blown up the chantry, leading to Meredith killing all of the mages (since no one was strong enough to oppose her), and the Templar abominations would have gone free

Maybe, but the cause of the blowing will not happen if Kirkwal still have the Viscount, Meredith not assume power, Anders have no way and no cause to blow up the Chantry. It is all because of Hawke. If hawke is not there, maybe Meredith and Orsino resolve things peacefully.

The Viscount was already dead, there was no way the Arishok was going to let him survive. With the Viscount dead Meredith assumed power, with her power she and Orsino began to conflict. With this conflict starting to bubble Anders destroyed the Chantry. There was no way to avoid this, not even if Hawke was there. And if you're assuming they could've settled this peacefully then you're thinking with the mind of a child here.

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...

-Cullen would probably have been murdered by Wilmod (Hawke didn't save him)

Wilmord become abomination because Hawke is there

-with Wilmod escaping, more Templar recruits would have turned into abominations

Like it is easy thing to do, if so, the Templar is so dumb

The Qunari would have sacked Kirkwall (they would have been angry about their stolen book and attacked eventually anyway- and maybe even sooner had Hawke not interacted with him)

or maybe they manage to catch Isabella, they have been in Kirkwal for 6 years. They attack Kirkwal because Hawke failed in negotiation. The tension between Qunari and Kirkwal is because of sister Petrice, and Hawke involve in it

-Bartrand and Varric would have still made their Deep Roads run and still found the relic (it might have taken longer to get the funding, but it would have happened anyway)

hawke who funded the expedition, Hawke who found the way to Premival Thaig, Hawke who give th lyrium idol to bartrabd, none of this happen if hawke don't go to kirkwal

-Meredith would have trainquiled more mages, likely

it is all Anders bull****, Meredith and Grand cleric rejected the idea of "Tranquil solution"

-Anders would have still blown up the chantry, leading to Meredith killing all of the mages (since no one was strong enough to oppose her), and the Templar abominations would have gone free

Maybe, but the cause of the blowing will not happen if Kirkwal still have the Viscount, Meredith not assume power, Anders have no way and no cause to blow up the Chantry. It is all because of Hawke. If hawke is not there, maybe Meredith and Orsino resolve things peacefully.

Blah blah blah. You don't want a discussion, you just want to make up justifications for your hate of DA2. Everything I listed is a possibility if Hawke weren't there. Just because you don't like it doesn't change that. Hawke is not an epic hero, he is not responsible for anything that happened in Kirkwall. The events in Kirkwall were already in motion before Hawke got there, none of that changes if he died in Lothering or went somewhere else. It would have still happened. Hawke is not the propelling force of the war, he's a bystander to it.

You can try to dismiss everything someone says to give his motivations and goals, but that doesn't change them from being his motivations and goals. Hawke is powerless. That is the point of DA2.

Bashing my brains out against a wall would be more productive than talking with you.

We've already dismantled your motivations for the Warden. Nothing makes him want to stop the blight unless we, the player, choose to have him do so. Almost anything the Warden did could have been done without being the Warden (except certain origin stories where the protag would have died if Duncan had not conscripted them). DA2 is no different than DAO, and DAO doesn't give you any more motivations than DA2 does.

[Saibh]

Nizaris1 wrote...

yup illogical...

- he/she freely in and out Kirkwal as apostate
- freely mess with Templar business as an apostate
- freely live in Kirkwal as apostate
- freely killing, assassinate, defying the law, do what he/she wilt as an apostate

Bioware only can justify that in DA3 by saying "Varric is lying"

Everyone alredy pointed out exactly why you are allowed to do as you do when you are an apostate. You have refused to acknowledge anyone's points. Either people don't know about you, or you are too powerful to stop.

Nizaris, it really doesn't matter if you think Hawke is a good guy or bad guy, becuase that's actually irrelevant to whether or not the story is "logical". It is not bad writing because you had different expectations of the PC of the game. The events that happened were out of Hawke's control. This is not "illogical". 

[Sol Downer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Viscount was already dead, there was no way the Arishok was going to let him survive. With the Viscount dead Meredith assumed power, with her power she and Orsino began to conflict. With this conflict starting to bubble Anders destroyed the Chantry. There was no way to avoid this, not even if Hawke was there. And if you're assuming they could've settled this peacefully then you're thinking with the mind of a child here.

Viscount will not dead if

- Hawke never be in Kirkwal
- Aveline never be in Kirkwal become the guard captain

When they are not in Kirkwal
- Sister Petrice may be dead in Lowtown killed by mobs, and so her plan to rise tension between Qunari and Kirkwaller failed
- Ser Varnel also maybe dead, so he and Sister Petrice will never kidnap Qunari
- Seamus maybe alive, not killed by sister Petrice, so no tension between Qunari and Kirkwaller
- Qunari don't have the gatlock (gun powder), that leave to Javaris maybe lost interest in the thing, thus lead to no stealing sar qamek case

It is all happen because Hawke is there

MAYBE. Everything is a big frickin' MAYBE! The events of Kirkwall could've happened, or maybe not! The fact is, it doesn't even matter at this point! The Qunari were spurred in to action ALREADY because they didn't like how people in Kirkwall were living their lives! Did you NOT pay attention to the conversation with him?

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Viscount was already dead, there was no way the Arishok was going to let him survive. With the Viscount dead Meredith assumed power, with her power she and Orsino began to conflict. With this conflict starting to bubble Anders destroyed the Chantry. There was no way to avoid this, not even if Hawke was there. And if you're assuming they could've settled this peacefully then you're thinking with the mind of a child here.

Viscount will not dead if

- Hawke never be in Kirkwal
- Aveline never be in Kirkwal become the guard captain

When they are not in Kirkwal
- Sister Petrice may be dead in Lowtown killed by mobs, and so her plan to rise tension between Qunari and Kirkwaller failed
- Ser Varnel also maybe dead, so he and Sister Petrice will never kidnap Qunari
- Seamus maybe alive, not killed by sister Petrice, so no tension between Qunari and Kirkwaller
- Qunari don't have the gatlock (gun powder), that leave to Javaris maybe lost interest in the thing, thus lead to no stealing sar qamek case

It is all happen because Hawke is there

The Viscount used Hawke to attempt peace with the Qunari because the Arishok did not respect anyone else. The Arishok would have still eventually decided to raze the city because he was not getting what he wanted- the book of Koslun. He would have eventually gotten fed up and attacked the city, and perhaps even sooner, had Hawke not been there, then he would have killed the Viscount and all of the nobles. Everything will still happen.

>>>>>>>That is the point of DA2, everything still happens without Hawke, and only Hawke can stop some of those events.<<<<<<<

[Allan Schumacher]

Viscount will not dead if

- Hawke never be in Kirkwal
- Aveline never be in Kirkwal become the guard captain

You can't definitively state this. The Arishok is in Kirkwall regardless of Hawke's return. The Arishok is the one that kills the Viscount, motivated by his hatred of the people that live in Kirkwall. Hawke is one of the few that the Arishok actually respects.

I see no reason why the Arishok would not have led his Qunari group to raze the city. Furthermore, without Hawke, I also don't see why it would not be possible for the Arishok to go even further. Hawke literally stops the Arishok.

[d4eaming]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Viscount will not dead if

- Hawke never be in Kirkwal
- Aveline never be in Kirkwal become the guard captain

You can't definitively state this. The Arishok is in Kirkwall regardless of Hawke's return. The Arishok is the one that kills the Viscount, motivated by his hatred of the people that live in Kirkwall. Hawke is one of the few that the Arishok actually respects.

I see no reason why the Arishok would not have led his Qunari group to raze the city. Furthermore, without Hawke, I also don't see why it would not be possible for the Arishok to go even further. Hawke literally stops the Arishok.

+9000

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Mr Allan

The Arishok only can move because Hawke help him, there are a lot of qunari leave the Qun, if Hawke not mess with the Tal Vasoth, maybe Arishok have no man power to do what he intend to do

Arishok become powerful because Hawke involvement in killing Tal Vasoth

Daww, you go telling the game devs how their own world works, it's cute <3

[d4eaming]

Nizaris1 wrote...

- Qunari don't have the gatlock (gun powder), Tal vasoth who have it,
Hawke steal from Tal Vasoth, that leave to Javaris maybe lost interest
in the thing, thus lead to no stealing sar qamek case

Hawke never got gaatlok. Javaris wanted it, but he never got it either. The Tal-Vashoth has nothing to do with that whatsoever. Javaris may even have died, since Hawke has to kill the spiders attacking him. The crazy elf stealing saar-qamek would have still occured, and had Hawke not stopped her, she would have escalated the tensions with the Qunari- leading to the attempted razing of the city.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

>>>>>>>That is the point of DA2, everything still happens without Hawke, and only Hawke can stop some of those events.<<<<<<<

No, Hawke is the cause of every event

If hawke NEVER steal the gatlok from Tal Vasoth and return it to Arishok, the Arishok never know Hawke, and nothing happen...maybe Arishok lost many Qunari to the Tal Vasoth

Hawke does nothing of the sort.  Hawke kills a number of Tal Vashoth because Javaris thinks it'll win him some goodwill.  The Tal Vashoth weren't a problem for the Qunari (Qunari were quartered inside the city walls, Tal Vashoth outside) they were a nuisance and a stain.  If Javaris survived the attack with the spiders he would have just hired someone else to kill Tal Vashoth for him.  Nothing changes.

[Saibh]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Mr Allan

The Arishok only can move because Hawke help him, there are a lot of qunari leave the Qun, if Hawke not mess with the Tal Vasoth, maybe Arishok have no man power to do what he intend to do

Arishok become powerful because Hawke involvement in killing Tal Vasoth

Edit : Qunari leaving the Qun, because they are fed up and bored being in Kirkwal too long under Arishok

That didn't make the Arishok powerful. 

And a game dev just told you you can't know what happens. 

As I said (which you sweetly ignored), it does not matter if Hawke is the great hero of Kirkwall or not, because that has nothing to do with how logical the story is.

Modifié par Saibh, 24 décembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[Sol Downer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Mr Allan

The Arishok only can move because Hawke help him, there are a lot of qunari leave the Qun, if Hawke not mess with the Tal Vasoth, maybe Arishok have no man power to do what he intend to do

Arishok become powerful because Hawke involvement in killing Tal Vasoth

Edit : Qunari leaving the Qun, because they are fed up and bored being in Kirkwal too long under Arishok

Wrong, one of the devs just told you the exact opposite situation. Your entire basis for this "Kirkwall would be fine" thing is now invalid. It's like arguing with a chef that's been baking for years and telling him how to toast bread.

[WhiteKnyght]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Viscount will not dead if

- Hawke never be in Kirkwal
- Aveline never be in Kirkwal become the guard captain

You can't definitively state this. The Arishok is in Kirkwall regardless of Hawke's return. The Arishok is the one that kills the Viscount, motivated by his hatred of the people that live in Kirkwall. Hawke is one of the few that the Arishok actually respects.

I see no reason why the Arishok would not have led his Qunari group to raze the city. Furthermore, without Hawke, I also don't see why it would not be possible for the Arishok to go even further. Hawke literally stops the Arishok.

And without Hawke stopping the Arishok, there would have been no events that happened afterward. Meredith and Orsino likely would have been captured and/or killed, and all the mages in the city, including Anders, would have been collared, had their tongues cut out, and their mouths sewn shut. Meaning no Anders' going terrorist on the chantry and no rite of annulment.

Everybody in Kirkwall owes Hawke a great debt.

[MisterJB]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
And without Hawke stopping the Arishok, there would have been no events that happened afterward. Meredith and Orsino likely would have been captured and/or killed, and all the mages in the city, including Anders, would have been collared, had their tongues cut out, and their mouths sewn shut. Meaning no Anders' going terrorist on the chantry and no rite of annulment.

Everybody in Kirkwall owes Hawke a great debt.

In retrospective, that would probrably have avoided the Templar-Mage war entirely. Kirkwall would now be a Qunari state in the Free Marches but it would still have Orlais, Nevarra, Anderfels and Rivain between itself and Par-Vollen.
It might have been better had the Arishok killed Hawke.

[TheBreadedOne]

MisterJB wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
And without Hawke stopping the Arishok, there would have been no events that happened afterward. Meredith and Orsino likely would have been captured and/or killed, and all the mages in the city, including Anders, would have been collared, had their tongues cut out, and their mouths sewn shut. Meaning no Anders' going terrorist on the chantry and no rite of annulment.

Everybody in Kirkwall owes Hawke a great debt.

In retrospective, that would probrably have avoided the Templar-Mage war entirely. Kirkwall would now be a Qunari state in the Free Marches but it would still have Orlais, Nevarra, Anderfels and Rivain between itself and Par-Vollen.
It might have been better had the Arishok killed Hawke.

Wouldn't the Qunari doing that violate that treaty (Llmoyren or something like that) and start another war with the Qunari?

[Allan Schumacher]

Wrong, one of the devs just told you the exact opposite situation. Your entire basis for this "Kirkwall would be fine" thing is now invalid. It's like arguing with a chef that's been baking for years and telling him how to toast bread.

Just to nip this sort of response in the bud, don't use my word entirely as absolute gospel ammunition for the idea that "Kirkwall would be fine" is not at all plausible.

If someone wishes to think that Hawke was the catalyst that set all these events in motion, I think that that is fine. However, given what we know from the game lore, I do think that definitively stating that it would not have happened is something we cannot conclude.

Hawke wasn't a small time player, but the Qunari are already a boiling pot. There's no logical reason to definitively state that without Hawke's influence, the Qunari situation would never have escalated. Although I do think, given Hawke is the one that breaks it up, Hawke does prevent it from becoming much, much worse.