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Blood Mage and Spirit Healer DO NOT GO TOGETHER


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#26
Malfurus

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Sloth Of Doom wrote...

I think JackDresden has summed it up fairly well. Just because a rather extremist church (the chantry) sees blood magic as 'evil' doesn't mean that it is considered to be that way everywhere in the world, or that spirits give a crap what the mortal races think is god or evil.

In fact, chantry doctrine states that magic itself is neither good nor evil, but a gift from the Maker that must be used responsibly. It doesn't have a legaleeze paragraph at the back of all the holy texts excluding blood magic. The aversion to blood magic is of human manufactre.


I could be wrong but didn't the Old Gods teach human kind Blood Magic? Wasn't that the reason the Maker imprisoned them? Isn't it against the Chant of Light  "Magic is meant to serve man and not rule over him?" something along those lines. I think being able to boil the blood of enemies (or innocents) and/or having them under your will is definitely something dark and evil and you're "ruling" over other creatures own "Maker given" free will...if the Maker exists.. I mean its not just "cast a spell here and there" like they show you in combat, but more like what Jowan did, cutting yourself or using the blood of other people to use your spells. 

#27
Viglin

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HolyRomanCousinConsort wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

HolyRomanCousinConsort wrote...

The old mage lady with the fine rack ...


I just almost snorted my drink out my nose at work. Thanks. :pinched:


I had to use a description to avoid giving out spoilers ;)


I snorted and applauded you....Wynne so needs a Romance update!:)

#28
Sarielle

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AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

What disappoints me about blood magic is that there is no repercussions on ANY character for taking it.  You can even make the most ardent anti-blood mage speaker, Wynne, a blood mage and her in game dialogue being all anti-blood mage doesn't change.


Sorry, I just saw this.

I honestly wonder why people aren't a little leery of spirit healers as well...since you're more likely to draw the attention of demons than a lot of the other types of magic. I mean, you healed them, great...they just have to hope they're not snoring by the campfire when one possesses you or something, lol.

#29
Wompoo

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Blood Magic isn't evil... now the Chantry turning Templars (poof Paladins) into drug addicts and a lifetime dependency on lirium (spelling), knowing it has diminishing returns. Chantry equal evil, self-righteous religious types always are..

#30
Viglin

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Sarielle wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

What disappoints me about blood magic is that there is no repercussions on ANY character for taking it.  You can even make the most ardent anti-blood mage speaker, Wynne, a blood mage and her in game dialogue being all anti-blood mage doesn't change.


Sorry, I just saw this.

I honestly wonder why people aren't a little leery of spirit healers as well...since you're more likely to draw the attention of demons than a lot of the other types of magic. I mean, you healed them, great...they just have to hope they're not snoring by the campfire when one possesses you or something, lol.


Another good point...l guess cause we, as Grey Wardens, are neither blindling good or ultimate evil, we take what we can get?
It surprised the hell out of me when Viglin Cousland, in Wardens Keep, told Levi that Grey Wardens dont apose the use of Blood Magic...after Alistair and Co ****ing about it.

#31
Schneidend

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Being able to do anything to enemy combatants ought to be considered evil to you, then. How about turning their bodies into walking bombs, or causing them to experience horrific waking nightmares, siphoning energy from their dead bodies to renew yourself or repelenish your mana? You can do all of these and more without the aid of Blood Magic.

Just because the Chantry, or any religion for that matter, says something is evil, does not make it so.

Wompoo wrote...

Blood Magic isn't evil... now the Chantry
turning Templars (poof Paladins) into drug addicts and a lifetime
dependency on lirium (spelling), knowing it has diminishing returns.
Chantry equal evil, self-righteous religious types always are..


Also an excellent point. Just how "evil" do you think enslaving men through lyrium addiction is, Malfurus?

Modifié par Schneidend, 06 janvier 2010 - 11:11 .


#32
Viglin

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Wompoo wrote...

Blood Magic isn't evil... now the Chantry turning Templars (poof Paladins) into drug addicts and a lifetime dependency on lirium (spelling), knowing it has diminishing returns. Chantry equal evil, self-righteous religious types always are..


Well said.

#33
Malfurus

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Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.

#34
Cybercat999

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I see none here forcing you to play Blood Mage, Malfurus, so please restrain yourself from trying to force Bioware to make the game the way YOU think it should be made.

I am happy being evil. Bite me.


#35
Sarielle

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Malfurus wrote...

Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.


You seem to think good and evil are extremely black and white. If that's your take, I guess I can see your issue...though personally I think that's an overly simplistic viewpoint, and that motivation determines good and evil, not the means.

You also seem to cherry pick which posts you respond to...you've skipped several good questions challenging your views. ;) I'd love to see what you have to say about the Lyrium addiction...

#36
Sylvius the Mad

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Double

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 06 janvier 2010 - 11:26 .


#37
Sylvius the Mad

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Malfurus wrote...

That makes no sense, my Cleric post and this post have nothing in common so how about you lay off ya? Cool. And Blood Magic IS evil. I'm sorry, but being able to control the will of others... ...what exactly would you call that if not evil?

I wouldn't call it anything.  Even if I concede that ACTUALLY controlling the will of others is evil, simply being able to control the will of others has no moral position at all.  Is every weapon evil because you can kill children with it?  Is every man evil because he has the ability to commit rape?

That's nonsense.  Simply learning how to do something is not evil, and blood magic has other uses than the evil you describe.  If Blood Wound is evil, then Blizzard and Fireball are evil.

#38
Viglin

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Cybercat999 wrote...

I see none here forcing you to play Blood Mage, Malfurus, so please restrain yourself from trying to force Bioware to make the game the way YOU think it should be made.
I am happy being evil. Bite me.


My Rogue got a big grin here.

And again, another good post indicating Player Choice vs demanding change that not everyone would want.

#39
Viglin

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Sarielle wrote...

Malfurus wrote...

Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.


You seem to think good and evil are extremely black and white. If that's your take, I guess I can see your issue...though personally I think that's an overly simplistic viewpoint, and that motivation determines good and evil, not the means.

You also seem to cherry pick which posts you respond to...you've skipped several good questions challenging your views. ;) I'd love to see what you have to say about the Lyrium addiction...


You have a good eye, Rogue right?:)...wait, now lm not sure if l should be flattered he's been answering me or not:o

Modifié par Viglin, 06 janvier 2010 - 11:29 .


#40
ladydesire

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I can recall at least one place in the game so far that a Blood Mage has used the ability for good, but since this is the "no spoilers" forum I won't say where it is; I'm sure those folks that have chosen the option know it well, including the consequences.

#41
Catwall

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wonko33 wrote...

Do you really care that people you don't know, in their living room, are choosing to play their mages that way? Do you really think Bioware should pull their limited resources to "fix" something that in your opinion should not be in the game when you can just choose not to pick these two specializations on the same character? Why would it matter to you that other people would?


Quoted for emphatic agreement.

#42
essarr71

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Malfurus wrote...
The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility.


So if a Warden sacrificed a company of soldiers to flank a troop of darkspawn it'd be evil?  If a blood mage sacrificed 100 civilians to save a city of thousands, it'd be evil?  As it's been said: whats stopping a blood mage from doing a good deed?

Everything has a flip side.  Who's to say that a powerful blood mage didn't take the time to learn some spirit healing or vice versa.  Freedom of choice.  Can you learn to be a doctor and how to torture or maim?  I'd say you'd learn a bit of both as you were educated.  But doctors don't torture or maim because they physically cannot.  If YOU feel that blood magic is evil, grats - you have the foundation to RP a very Chantry-centric toon - why demand the removing of the freedom to have that choice and not stand out by playing an opinion and not a pretermined role?

#43
Schneidend

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Malfurus wrote...

Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.


What about the MAIN character, you know, who could be played as a mage? A mage that uses blood magic to save the entire world of Thedas from a horde of feral barbaric monstrosities we laymen like to call darkspawn.

#44
Guest_Tassiaw_*

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My blood mage giveth and taketh away. I think they fit together perfectly well. Blood magic manipulates life energy into magic, while spirit healing restores people to good health. It's the ultimate life control.

#45
Sarielle

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Viglin wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Malfurus wrote...

Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.


You seem to think good and evil are extremely black and white. If that's your take, I guess I can see your issue...though personally I think that's an overly simplistic viewpoint, and that motivation determines good and evil, not the means.

You also seem to cherry pick which posts you respond to...you've skipped several good questions challenging your views. ;) I'd love to see what you have to say about the Lyrium addiction...


You have a good eye, Rogue right?:)...wait, now lm not sure if l should be flattered he's been answering me or not:o


No, he still didn't refer to any of the actual pertinent points you made. You're good. :P

#46
miltos33

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Arcane Warrior and Shapeshifter do not go together either, as well as many other things in the game. However, the options are there and should be there so you can role play different characters who are limited only by your imagination, or even try crappy builds to make the game more challenging, but only if you choose to do so.

#47
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How is Spirit Healer good? They can heal bad guys aswell. So it depends on who's wielding the power.



Personally, I never get 2 specializations. Doesn't seem right to me. I just get the Arcane Warrior, while making Sten a Reaver. Everyone's unique that way. :)

#48
KethWolfheart

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Malfurus wrote...

Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.


A few errors in this post.

First - Blood magic was originally learned from demons.  It is often learned by making a pact with demons, as is the case in DAO with your character.  This information is in the game and the lore.

Second - Spirits who are labeled demonsare labeled as such because they take on negative human emotions.  All are spirits and each spirit tends to take on a single human emotion.  Most people refer to those creatures as "spirits" who take on "good" emotions while those creatures who take on "dark" emotions are labelled demons.

Third - Jowan uses Blood magic for good (to rescue someone ... can't say more since it would be a spoiler).  Just because no one else does doesn't mean it can't happen.

IMO Blood magic LENDS itself more easily to evil use but is not, itself, evil.  Like most things in life it is the user that makes something good or evil.  However I say it lends itself more to evil because anything that controls free will is fairly universally considered on the evil side.  Just like the anvil of the void isn't itself evil, it can be used in a less than ethical manner, just like Blood Magic.

Maybe you are getting confused by two things.  The word "Blood" may make you think it is evil because its ... well bloody.  Second because the Chantry says it is evil you believe them - and thats just a load of crap.  The Chantry is like most organized religion - full of propaganda and their own belief systems.

None of my characters in the game ever used it - in fact I have no plans on ever unlocking that achievement.  I consider it a dark magic because of its association with dark spirits and how easy it is to abuse. BUT I do not consider it inherently evil.  For that matter none of my mages will ever use the entropy talent line that deals in death magic or the spirit line that deals with corpses. I think they are just as "dark", if not more so, then blood magic. But none of them are inhernetly evil. 

DEATH IS DEATH whether by life sucking energy or being burnt to a crisp by a fireball.

But that is my own role playing decision.

PS - The one thing I do think is a horrible design decision, however, is teaching Wynne to be a blood mage.  Not because of the blood magic being dark and she is "white" but because she is 100% against blood magic in any form or shape, so letting herself learn it is totally against her personality and character and hence breaks her reality completely.  One would think they would have just locked out that talent from being able to be used with a simple script.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:29 .


#49
CbBurt

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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Star Wars and the Dark Side. Most of us recall why little Anakin turned to the dark side; to gain power over life and death in order to save the one he loved. So, while his intentions may have been benevolent--though selfish--he turned to a power that had the ability to corrupt. Was it he who corrupted himself by means of his emotions, or was it the uninformed promise of power? I won't commit to an answer.

I imagine, though, that bioware was attempting to reclaim a part of the old epic good versus evil conflict, though with the understanding that such a thing does not exist in today's age. Certainly, there are a few gaps in the story line--as discussed regarding Wynne--but the allure of weiling Blood Magic is difficult to deny. My first mage actually was a Blood Mage/Spirit Healer, and I wouldn't change him a bit.

While I agree that Blood Magic is not inherently evil, I like to pretend it is; it adds to the DA:O world that I've created in my head, in which I fill in the gaps. I like to tell myself, I can handle the power (though it really isn't that powerful), unlike those other fools, and then remind myself of little Anie.

P.S. If I've screwed up the Star Wars refs, please don't freak out, I'm not a die hard fan.

#50
Godak

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iRipper wrote...

How is Spirit Healer good? They can heal bad guys aswell. So it depends on who's wielding the power.

Personally, I never get 2 specializations. Doesn't seem right to me. I just get the Arcane Warrior, while making Sten a Reaver. Everyone's unique that way. :)


Well, if a mage practiced Spirit Healing, and only Spirit Healing, they couldn't be that evil. I mean, what are they going to do? Heal me to death?

*Spoilers?*

On a related note, I'd like BioWare to make a Blood Mage practicing NPC who is actually good. Jowan may just be misguided, but he always ends up doing evil things...

I'd find it interesting for a Tevinter Mage who practices Blood Magic to walk around Ferelden using his own life force to heal the injured...Suck it, Chantry!

Image IPB

Modifié par Godak, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:37 .