Modifié par CbBurt, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:40 .
Blood Mage and Spirit Healer DO NOT GO TOGETHER
Débuté par
Malfurus
, janv. 06 2010 10:24
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#52
Guest_iRipper_*
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:46
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I mean, Spirit Healers can be bad guys and heal their companions while they are fighting.
#53
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:47
Godak
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Erm...You see, the Dark Side is inherently evil...That's just Star Wars Lore, go ask George Lucas about it.
In Thedas, things don't work the same way. The Chantry would have everyone believe that magic as a whole is a necessary evil, but Blood Magic is just where they draw the line (and apostates, and run-aways (who they later name apostates)). The Chantry is where the rumors of "evil" Blood Magic stem. In Thedas, you can be a Blood Mage and remain in control of yourself (As Jowan demonstrated...it just seems that he has really bad judgment). In Star Wars, the Dark Side consumes your being until you return to the Light Side. George is just far more preachy than Mr. Gaider and the rest of the creative minds behind the Dragon Age Lore.
In Thedas, things don't work the same way. The Chantry would have everyone believe that magic as a whole is a necessary evil, but Blood Magic is just where they draw the line (and apostates, and run-aways (who they later name apostates)). The Chantry is where the rumors of "evil" Blood Magic stem. In Thedas, you can be a Blood Mage and remain in control of yourself (As Jowan demonstrated...it just seems that he has really bad judgment). In Star Wars, the Dark Side consumes your being until you return to the Light Side. George is just far more preachy than Mr. Gaider and the rest of the creative minds behind the Dragon Age Lore.
#54
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:51
ModernMystic
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AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...
What disappoints me about blood magic is that there is no repercussions on ANY character for taking it. You can even make the most ardent anti-blood mage speaker, Wynne, a blood mage and her in game dialogue being all anti-blood mage doesn't change.
I don't want to give away any spoilers but I recall the choice to become a blood mage havng an extreme negative effect on an NPC. It was the reason I chose no to access it for my character.
#55
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 12:57
ladydesire
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ModernMystic wrote...
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...
What disappoints me about blood magic is that there is no repercussions on ANY character for taking it. You can even make the most ardent anti-blood mage speaker, Wynne, a blood mage and her in game dialogue being all anti-blood mage doesn't change.
I don't want to give away any spoilers but I recall the choice to become a blood mage havng an extreme negative effect on an NPC. It was the reason I chose no to access it for my character.
Sounds vaguely familiar, but minus becoming one myself, if you're thinking of the same NPC I am.
#56
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:03
RangerSG
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It's hard to discuss this topic without getting into spoilers. Blood magic is seen as evil for two reasons.
1) As noted already, it frequently involves coopting the will of another person to power your own magic. Ferelden has a very strong culture of individual will (the Landsmeet, their view on slavery, power is granted to the King by the freeholders through the Banns and Arls). So that kind of coercion magic is viewed very dimly.
2) Blood Magic does seem to be a short step from becoming an abomination in the game. Almost every blood mage you see IG is either making themself an abomination or someone else one. So I think there's a slippery slope there.
As far as Wynne and Blood Magic goes...I do think the designers should have made it so that certain PCs cannot choose certain specializations. Without going into spoilers, it's clear certain class choices are anathema to certain characters, and that's especially clear for that with her.
1) As noted already, it frequently involves coopting the will of another person to power your own magic. Ferelden has a very strong culture of individual will (the Landsmeet, their view on slavery, power is granted to the King by the freeholders through the Banns and Arls). So that kind of coercion magic is viewed very dimly.
2) Blood Magic does seem to be a short step from becoming an abomination in the game. Almost every blood mage you see IG is either making themself an abomination or someone else one. So I think there's a slippery slope there.
As far as Wynne and Blood Magic goes...I do think the designers should have made it so that certain PCs cannot choose certain specializations. Without going into spoilers, it's clear certain class choices are anathema to certain characters, and that's especially clear for that with her.
#57
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:13
VenorikVelv
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Well, you have to think about the fact as well that Blood Mages do not all have to dabble in demonology. Spirit Healer draws from benevolent spirits, Blood Mage does not necessarily draw from dark ones. They don't have to be related.
#58
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:17
spiritage
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Viglin wrote...
Malfurus wrote...
Bioware...I'm slightly disappointed with you. In fact I don't think you gave this much thought and I hope you remedy the problem in the future. Please, for lore sake, for balancing sake, for making sense sake, disallow some specializations and/or spells once others of the contradictory nature are learned. Why would a a Blood Mage, who uses dark and evil magic be allowed to also learn the ways of a Spirit Healer, one that draws power from the benevolent, benevolent being the key word, spirits of the fade? That doesn't add up in my mind. Can you do something about that please?
What exactly is evil about Blood Magic....hell, from what lve seen, its kinda lame. Its basically just another power source.
Animating Dead ld have considered evil..and thats a normal spell. Or you know, the spells that cause bodies to explode....hexes....list goes on.
And your "for the sake of balancing"...quite amusing considering the Cleric thread you have running
#59
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:20
Wolfwing0100
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Just to tell you I Actually used blood mage and Spirit Healer in one character.. Did not Die so far but, the concept of using it kinda Freaks me out.. I felt really Sten
#60
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:26
Zandilar
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Heya,
The Chantry says many things, and not all of them are true. In fact, I think BioWare went to great lengths to portray the Chantry as a complex organization, with as many darker hues, if not more, as brighter.
They deliberately addict their Templars to Lyrium, for example. They all but keep mages prisoner in their own towers, and would happily kill every single last man, woman and child in the tower rather than attempt to rescue any of them from the blood mages and abominations that are running rampart, for another. They would quite happily convert anyone and everyone, at the point of a sword... What on Thedas do you think those Exalted Marches are all about? These are not the actions of an organization on moral high ground. Sure, the Chantry claims to be the moral high ground, but they're not.
Blood Magic is a tool. Like any tool, it's how it is used that counts. What the Chantry says about it should be taken in the whole context of the Chantry, not just those bits that please the person perceiving it.
The Chantry says many things, and not all of them are true. In fact, I think BioWare went to great lengths to portray the Chantry as a complex organization, with as many darker hues, if not more, as brighter.
They deliberately addict their Templars to Lyrium, for example. They all but keep mages prisoner in their own towers, and would happily kill every single last man, woman and child in the tower rather than attempt to rescue any of them from the blood mages and abominations that are running rampart, for another. They would quite happily convert anyone and everyone, at the point of a sword... What on Thedas do you think those Exalted Marches are all about? These are not the actions of an organization on moral high ground. Sure, the Chantry claims to be the moral high ground, but they're not.
Blood Magic is a tool. Like any tool, it's how it is used that counts. What the Chantry says about it should be taken in the whole context of the Chantry, not just those bits that please the person perceiving it.
#62
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:41
RangerSG
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VenorikVelv wrote...
Well, you have to think about the fact as well that Blood Mages do not all have to dabble in demonology. Spirit Healer draws from benevolent spirits, Blood Mage does not necessarily draw from dark ones. They don't have to be related.
Your PC learns this, in game, yes. But what do most people--even mages---see? They see a repeated correllation. And there's LOTS of evidence why even mages would view it as suspect in game.
#63
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 01:46
jmp0505
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You know... the thing about a SINGLE PLAYER GAME is I can do what I want and no one cares. And you can do what you want, and I don't give a crap! So - you look at the blood school of magic and it's eeeeeevil. That's fine - if your spirit healing character is so good and brain-washed by the religion dominated society, then you, as the controlling factor, never pick it. Don't push your need for strict rules on my game, however. If I want a spirit healing blood mage, then dammit, I will have one. In fact, I may go create one right now! 
Joking aside, in a game context, the Blood school of magic is probably outlawed because of the Chantry. If you note the codex entries for the different schools, you do find the blood mage info in Irving's study, taken out of circulation, as it were. Clearly it is, or was, a legitimate line of study of magic. The Chantry fears the power of all magic, probably from both a political and a general control perspective. (Bear in mind this is my interpretation.) Blood magic has maybe a scarier element to it because a rogue mage could use the lifeforce of others to maintain his power, whereas most other schools of magic might be able to boost health or mana for a short burst from a victim (friend of foe, in theory, if not in practice in the game). The whole aspect of the Chantry's control over mages and their tacit agreement to it (they allow, even promote, the right of tranquility - Ugh) is an interesting aspect of the game to me.
How many of you let the wounded blood mage go when doing the Broken Circle quest?
Joking aside, in a game context, the Blood school of magic is probably outlawed because of the Chantry. If you note the codex entries for the different schools, you do find the blood mage info in Irving's study, taken out of circulation, as it were. Clearly it is, or was, a legitimate line of study of magic. The Chantry fears the power of all magic, probably from both a political and a general control perspective. (Bear in mind this is my interpretation.) Blood magic has maybe a scarier element to it because a rogue mage could use the lifeforce of others to maintain his power, whereas most other schools of magic might be able to boost health or mana for a short burst from a victim (friend of foe, in theory, if not in practice in the game). The whole aspect of the Chantry's control over mages and their tacit agreement to it (they allow, even promote, the right of tranquility - Ugh) is an interesting aspect of the game to me.
How many of you let the wounded blood mage go when doing the Broken Circle quest?
#64
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:16
metalfenix
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If I remember correctly one could build an EVIL Cleric back in Neverwinter nights, and the rules of D&D seem to allow it, so I fail to see why a character who uses the healing spirit class have to be good, and, some say that blood magic is inherently evil, but let's see....why is more evil than other magic schools? for example entropy or creation, or better yet, some argue that blood magic enslaves other's people's minds, so what's the difference between that and spells like curse of mortality?
An evil character could learn the spirit healer school and still follow their evil ways, and conversely, even though a character make a deal with a demon to learn blood magic, he/she may want to use it only in special cases and hurting only themselves (drawing their own blood) and still following their righteous path ... so I don't know why these schools have to be separated, the human beings are not entirely good or bad...
In my first game, even though my warrior character learned from both the champion and reaver class, it only did the reaver skills when needed, AND they only hurt my character, so why not use it for a good goal? at the end, my first character got the goody two shoes ending.
On the other side, I'm playing with my second character right now (The one of my avatar) and is inspired on the evil clerics of NWN, he will learn both the spirit healer school and the blood magic school...but the evil seeds of my character are beginning to show way before he can learn the blood magic, so is the blood magic the cause of his evil ways? no, it's just a tool.
Hell, you think exactly the same way I am. It still infuriates me the discrimination and control that that chantry does over mages, and specially blood magic.
And yes, my first character (a good one by the way) let the blood mage run back in the broken circle quest.
EDIT: And yes, I know that my english is horrible
An evil character could learn the spirit healer school and still follow their evil ways, and conversely, even though a character make a deal with a demon to learn blood magic, he/she may want to use it only in special cases and hurting only themselves (drawing their own blood) and still following their righteous path ... so I don't know why these schools have to be separated, the human beings are not entirely good or bad...
In my first game, even though my warrior character learned from both the champion and reaver class, it only did the reaver skills when needed, AND they only hurt my character, so why not use it for a good goal? at the end, my first character got the goody two shoes ending.
On the other side, I'm playing with my second character right now (The one of my avatar) and is inspired on the evil clerics of NWN, he will learn both the spirit healer school and the blood magic school...but the evil seeds of my character are beginning to show way before he can learn the blood magic, so is the blood magic the cause of his evil ways? no, it's just a tool.
jmp0505 wrote...
You know... the thing about a SINGLE PLAYER GAME is I can do what I want and no one cares. And you can do what you want, and I don't give a crap! So - you look at the blood school of magic and it's eeeeeevil. That's fine - if your spirit healing character is so good and brain-washed by the religion dominated society, then you, as the controlling factor, never pick it. Don't push your need for strict rules on my game, however. If I want a spirit healing blood mage, then dammit, I will have one. In fact, I may go create one right now!
Joking aside, in a game context, the Blood school of magic is probably outlawed because of the Chantry. If you note the codex entries for the different schools, you do find the blood mage info in Irving's study, taken out of circulation, as it were. Clearly it is, or was, a legitimate line of study of magic. The Chantry fears the power of all magic, probably from both a political and a general control perspective. (Bear in mind this is my interpretation.) Blood magic has maybe a scarier element to it because a rogue mage could use the lifeforce of others to maintain his power, whereas most other schools of magic might be able to boost health or mana for a short burst from a victim (friend of foe, in theory, if not in practice in the game). The whole aspect of the Chantry's control over mages and their tacit agreement to it (they allow, even promote, the right of tranquility - Ugh) is an interesting aspect of the game to me.
How many of you let the wounded blood mage go when doing the Broken Circle quest?
Hell, you think exactly the same way I am. It still infuriates me the discrimination and control that that chantry does over mages, and specially blood magic.
And yes, my first character (a good one by the way) let the blood mage run back in the broken circle quest.
EDIT: And yes, I know that my english is horrible
Modifié par metalfenix, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:40 .
#65
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 02:58
padewan0913
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Another facet of blood magic/spirit healing that I was surprised to see no one address...
What about the BM/SH that sacrifices his own life force in battle to restore that of his allies? Would that be evil? And maybe he does siphon off some life from an ally, (for arguments sake I'll use game technical crap). So he takes 50 hp from an ally, but grants even MORE than that amount back with a heal spell. Is that evil? He is simply recycling the life energy. ~100 hp gives me more than one extra heal in a fight.
I think I know the best way to say it... BM/SH are the Investor class combo. No, no...it's not that they have pyramid schemes or crashing national banks. They take off an initial penalty, your investment, and in return for the one hit, you recieve roughly 4 Heal spells, depending on fatigue from sustains and the like, making your return at at LEAST 300% (the last 100 makes up for the 100 lost, so no, not 400%) and that's only if your heals do a small 50. By taking one, they create four. This is my current mage's theme
And if you're still bent on it being evil... Couldn't you say they fit the GREY area that wardens inhabit even better by this combo? While they commit one evil act, they perform 4 benevolent acts. I believe this would fall under something called repentance no? By sacrificing their own ticket to "live with the maker" or whatever it is called, they increase their ability to alleviate(lessen for those less eloquent
) others suffering. Is that evil? I believe not.
Edit: Corrected for redundancy
What about the BM/SH that sacrifices his own life force in battle to restore that of his allies? Would that be evil? And maybe he does siphon off some life from an ally, (for arguments sake I'll use game technical crap). So he takes 50 hp from an ally, but grants even MORE than that amount back with a heal spell. Is that evil? He is simply recycling the life energy. ~100 hp gives me more than one extra heal in a fight.
I think I know the best way to say it... BM/SH are the Investor class combo. No, no...it's not that they have pyramid schemes or crashing national banks. They take off an initial penalty, your investment, and in return for the one hit, you recieve roughly 4 Heal spells, depending on fatigue from sustains and the like, making your return at at LEAST 300% (the last 100 makes up for the 100 lost, so no, not 400%) and that's only if your heals do a small 50. By taking one, they create four. This is my current mage's theme
And if you're still bent on it being evil... Couldn't you say they fit the GREY area that wardens inhabit even better by this combo? While they commit one evil act, they perform 4 benevolent acts. I believe this would fall under something called repentance no? By sacrificing their own ticket to "live with the maker" or whatever it is called, they increase their ability to alleviate(lessen for those less eloquent
) others suffering. Is that evil? I believe not.Edit: Corrected for redundancy
Modifié par padewan0913, 07 janvier 2010 - 03:03 .
#66
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 04:19
Blue_dodo
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think about this activating blood magic and using your health to heal your allies ...whats so evil about that ?
as for blood magic being "evil" it is only considered evil by how it was used in the past, aka summoning demons,controlling other peoples mind etc,it doesn't mean it is inherently evil and anyways it has been hinted that spirit healers are the ones that are most often tempeted by demons do to their connection to spirits and such
game mechincs I am glad they didn't restrict people from certain specialization combination as that would be rather irritating.
as for blood magic being "evil" it is only considered evil by how it was used in the past, aka summoning demons,controlling other peoples mind etc,it doesn't mean it is inherently evil and anyways it has been hinted that spirit healers are the ones that are most often tempeted by demons do to their connection to spirits and such
game mechincs I am glad they didn't restrict people from certain specialization combination as that would be rather irritating.
#68
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 04:12
emyln
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Malfurus wrote...
Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.
If you're being so high brow than ALL magic is evil as stated by the Chantry, regardless of the soure.
Just because "YOU" consider a Spirit Healer to be good does not make it so. The fade is neither good nor evil. It is a place where spirits reside and is one power source for mages.
If you were a Spirit Healer Mage of old and suddenly found all your friends and family slaughtered in front of your eyes by reglious zealots, wouldn't you want revenge? And since the chantry controled the sources of Lyrium the mages of old had to resort to Blood Magic to combat them. Hence, Blood Magic was born. Why is using your own Blood or the Blood of willing Volunteers to fuel spells evil? It is ONLY when mages cross the line and use the blood of unwilling subjects that this becomes evil.
While it is true that many current Blood Mages kill without exception, this is intent. If you consider ALL Blood Magic to be evil then consider Loghain Mac Tir. Are his actions not evil? And by your same logic, all Warriors are evil.
You seriously need to stop thinking in Black and White as the Chantry and all religious orders do. The world we live in (and Fereldan) is gray.
#69
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 04:41
dlavizzo
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A. This isn't D&D, so applying D&D "laws" to magical schools is inappropriate.
B. The other two specializations suck. Hard.
C. In reality, Blood Mages would make perfect Spirit Healers regardless of what the "Chantry Laws" dictated since Blood Mages already have a deep understanding of how magic affects the body. Further, you'd think Blood Mages would be very, very interested in Spirit Healing, since you know, their own life force fuels their spells. You'd think, logically, that they'd want a way to regain that life force.
B. The other two specializations suck. Hard.
C. In reality, Blood Mages would make perfect Spirit Healers regardless of what the "Chantry Laws" dictated since Blood Mages already have a deep understanding of how magic affects the body. Further, you'd think Blood Mages would be very, very interested in Spirit Healing, since you know, their own life force fuels their spells. You'd think, logically, that they'd want a way to regain that life force.
#70
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 10:11
Sylvius the Mad
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That the Chantry thinks something is evil is not evidence that it is evil.Malfurus wrote...
I could be wrong but didn't the Old Gods teach human kind Blood Magic? Wasn't that the reason the Maker imprisoned them? Isn't it against the Chant of Light "Magic is meant to serve man and not rule over him?" something along those lines. I think being able to boil the blood of enemies (or innocents) and/or having them under your will is definitely something dark and evil and you're "ruling" over other creatures own "Maker given" free will...if the Maker exists.. I mean its not just "cast a spell here and there" like they show you in combat, but more like what Jowan did, cutting yourself or using the blood of other people to use your spells.
That the Maker thinks something is evil is not evidence that it is evil.
#71
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 11:45
Sarielle
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dlavizzo wrote...
B. The other two specializations suck. Hard.
Pfft. Arcane Warrior is awesome.
#72
Posté 07 janvier 2010 - 11:52
bzombo
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that's it! it's your opinion. this was not overlooked. the devs chose to do it this way. the dex bug was indeed a bug that was overlooked and ultimately fixed. not the same thing at all.Malfurus wrote...
Viglin wrote...
Malfurus wrote...
Bioware...I'm slightly disappointed with you. In fact I don't think you gave this much thought and I hope you remedy the problem in the future. Please, for lore sake, for balancing sake, for making sense sake, disallow some specializations and/or spells once others of the contradictory nature are learned. Why would a a Blood Mage, who uses dark and evil magic be allowed to also learn the ways of a Spirit Healer, one that draws power from the benevolent, benevolent being the key word, spirits of the fade? That doesn't add up in my mind. Can you do something about that please?
What exactly is evil about Blood Magic....hell, from what lve seen, its kinda lame. Its basically just another power source.
Animating Dead ld have considered evil..and thats a normal spell. Or you know, the spells that cause bodies to explode....hexes....list goes on.
And your "for the sake of balancing"...quite amusing considering the Cleric thread you have running.
That makes no sense, my Cleric post and this post have nothing in common so how about you lay off ya? Cool. And Blood Magic IS evil. I'm sorry, but being able to control the will of others, or sacrificing a bunch of elf slaves so you can increase your own health...what exactly would you call that if not evil? Or are you going to sit there and justify it? psh. And sure I can choose not pick it and play the game, so would you tell people to not have complained about the dexterity issue with rogues and just not play one? My point is that its something that was overlooked and needs to be fixed in my opinion. I play RPG games for lore sake, and when I think that something is out of place it kinda makes me itch. I'm explaining to you why its evil explain to me how its not? Or do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? ITS MY OPINION.
I mean honestly, if you can explain to me how Blood Magic is NOT evil, and that somehow Lore wise you should have the ability be able to be a Spirit Healer and Blood Mage, then maybe you'll sway me into your way of thinking. Otherwise, I stand by what I posted.
#73
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 12:07
Sarielle
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Ease up everyone. I think the OP is currently drowning in all the logic.
#74
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 12:12
Sloth Of Doom
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Sarielle wrote...
Ease up everyone. I think the OP is currently drowning in all the logic.
You got chocolate in my peanut butter!
#75
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 12:16
Whailor
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Semantics. There's nothing evil in the "tool", but how one uses it. Like the cold hard fact from real life - guns don't kill people, people kill people. Blood magic is just a tool, has - in some sense - some more extreme possibilities - but it's not evil on it's own, it's how the person uses it. Basically same nonsense like in SW "lore" - dark side of the force and the light side. There's no dark or light side, it's how one uses it.
And don't think that all the tools what you use and claim to be "good" would be just as "good" to everyone, just as acceptable. What may be "good" in one place may be "evil" in another place and you wouldn't be the one to decide this for others. Else you'd be just as "bad" as you claim others to be.
Like the elders say - only a bad worker blames the tools.
And don't think that all the tools what you use and claim to be "good" would be just as "good" to everyone, just as acceptable. What may be "good" in one place may be "evil" in another place and you wouldn't be the one to decide this for others. Else you'd be just as "bad" as you claim others to be.
Like the elders say - only a bad worker blames the tools.
