140 réponses à ce sujet

[lqutois]

Malfurus wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

I think JackDresden has summed it up fairly well. Just because a rather extremist church (the chantry) sees blood magic as 'evil' doesn't mean that it is considered to be that way everywhere in the world, or that spirits give a crap what the mortal races think is god or evil.

In fact, chantry doctrine states that magic itself is neither good nor evil, but a gift from the Maker that must be used responsibly. It doesn't have a legaleeze paragraph at the back of all the holy texts excluding blood magic. The aversion to blood magic is of human manufactre.

I could be wrong but didn't the Old Gods teach human kind Blood Magic? Wasn't that the reason the Maker imprisoned them? Isn't it against the Chant of Light  "Magic is meant to serve man and not rule over him?" something along those lines. I think being able to boil the blood of enemies (or innocents) and/or having them under your will is definitely something dark and evil and you're "ruling" over other creatures own "Maker given" free will...if the Maker exists.. I mean its not just "cast a spell here and there" like they show you in combat, but more like what Jowan did, cutting yourself or using the blood of other people to use your spells. 

Here you are again assuming the chant of light is correct!  NOT a good idea, as we are going to find out I expect in awakening the chant of light is very much only an interpretation.  Even alistar in the begining mentions there is a difference between what the chantry tells us and REALITY.  The opening movie shows that very well also..

[lqutois]

Malfurus wrote...

Blood Magic has nothing to do with demons. So many spirits are able to understand human emotions and from what I understand they are termed "demons" because their purpose is always purely selfish and destructive. Then there are those spirits who are benevolent like Wynne explains..ones that nurture and heal and, in this case, are connected with her and save her from dying. Are you implying that these benevolent spirits don't understand the actions being taken by Humans unlike their evil counterparts? That they don't understand that the person they kept from dying was actually an evil blood mage who was bent on destroying the world, instead of Wynne, a good hearted, wise old woman? And think about it in lore terms, why would anyone "good" practice these arts? What motives would they have? And Viglin, Fireball and Cone of Cold and all the other spells come from the Fade, they don't require blood to work and certainly don't require the blood and lives of others. The more powerful the spell, the more blood it needs, the more lives it takes. I don't think we will ever see a character in the game who uses Blood Magic for good (I can't imagine anything good coming out of it) but then again it is a possibility. And go post in the Cleric forum if you want to talk about Clerics, don't bring something unrelated to this forum please.

You are again assuming that anyone who uses blood magic is bent on destroying the world.  Certainly the enemies we see in the game are that way but that doesn't mean YOU have to be.  I learned blood magic on my elf mage because it was forbidden, and powerful and I wanted to bring down the chantry and humanity for what they did to the elves...as my character evolved however his opinons evolved ((especialy after the elven part gah for the ability to post spoilers)) so now he uses blodd magic yes but he uses it to save people from the blight not to destroy them.  The tool isn't good or evil just how it is used, like in real life.

[krylo]

mousestalker wrote...

I've been thinking over this issue off and on for about four months. I think the OP may have a point, but not in the way he meant.

Blood Magic and Spirit Healing do not go well together. The Blood Magic spells all have a reddish brown theme to them (blood, go figure). While the Spirit Healing Spells are all restful blues. Put side by side they really do clash. If you had a house you would not use those shades to decorate it. Similarly, a car with those tones would really look grotesque.

So the OP does have a point.

On the other hand, however, any properly decorated room that is predominantly of one color, should have at least one object--piece of furniture, statuette, perhaps the trim--that is of a color that would be located opposite on the color wheel.  It helps to relax the eyes and create a more soothing atmosphere.

So you should really have one blood magic spell on a spirit healer, and/or one spirit healer spell on a blood mage for proer decor in your spell catalogue.

Modifié par krylo, 09 mars 2010 - 07:37 .

[Allison W]

Malfurus, the problem is, you approached morality in Dragon Age from the wrong angle entirely--namely, you assume that it's black and white, that the Chantry must be good, that the things they declare evil must be evil, etc. What you don't understand is that Dragon Age isn't about black and white morality. Shades of grey are fundamental to the setting. The Chantry is not lily white--it commits acts both noble and ignoble, just like everyone.



As far as blood magic being used for human sacrifice and the like: do you have any evidence that the Warden has to do this if they become a blood mage? Blood magic can be used for evil things, and very easily, but it does have non-evil uses, and being a blood mage does not make one inherently evil or force them to use blood magic for evil. It doesn't even make them non-benevolent.



My mage is both a Spirit Healer and a Blood Mage because her personality includes benevolence and a fascination with knowledge, especially forbidden knowledge, in equal measure--she puts freedom before order. There is no contradiction between the specializations or the things that lead her to them.

[UberuceIAm]

I approve of the the fact Bioware have given us the product but left the Please Roleplay Responsibly warnings unsaid.

It's almost like they think roleplayers are not morons that need scripted restrictions to stop them doing implausible things.

Powergamers? They paid the same money as roleplayers, it's just bad business sense not to let them play with all the combinations.

I started a Circle playthrough and took Blood Mage, but I found it really annoying because I prefer, as those amusingly low-trousered chaps in rap videos say, to keep it real. When you're out in the sticks with the likes of Morrigan as your party, I'd use it with gay abandon, but the number of times I wanted to use the spiffy abilities but wouldn't because there were army-owning NPCs watching who would go "Argh bloogey, burn the witch" was too high for my tastes.

Reaver gives me some problems too, because of the Frightening Appearance talent. If it means you've cut your face to ribbons like the Reavers from Serenity, then it's just silly - anyone in the know will know you're a deeply bad lad. Then again, maybe it's so obscure that outwith your party there is no-one in the know, so everyone thinks 'daft git used a chainsaw to shave.'

I can kind of fuzz it to mean you look okay when in a good mood, but like Gully Foyle you look hideous when angry, but I'd prefer it if there was more lore about it.



Life would be much easier if I was more of a powergamer, poor me.

Modifié par UberuceIAm, 09 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[krylo]

UberuceIAm wrote...
I can kind of fuzz it to mean you look okay when in a good mood, but like Gully Foyle you look hideous when angry, but I'd prefer it if there was more lore about it.

I'm like 99.999999% sure this is what it is, as that you can turn it on and off at will.

It would be a passive if it was that other thing you said.

Modifié par krylo, 09 mars 2010 - 09:18 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

I gotta agree with this to some extent.



Templar-Reavers anybody?

[EternalWolfe]

ReconTeam wrote...

I gotta agree with this to some extent.

Templar-Reavers anybody?

First of all, none of the Templar skills are inherently 'good'.  They are simple skills that any warrior can learn - its not even required to believe in the Maker - or any religion - to learn them.

Second, most of the Reaver skills aren't inherently 'evil' either.  The only exception that might be made is Devour and that depends on whether the 'lingering energy' is a soul or the residual life energy.  I would assume the latter as Blood Magic has already shown the use of life energy as magical properties and I believe this is how Death Magic and Death Syphon work as well - drawing the residual life energy from dead bodies before it dissapates.

Nothing about either make them incompatible for use.  If your character WOULDN'T use them, then don't - but there is no good reason why they can't coexist.  This goes for Blood Magic-Spirit Healer too - they aren't inherently opposites, both can coexist.  Good and evil are perceptions, nothing more.  Controlling someone with Blood Magic is no more evil then burning them to death or turning their corpse into a servant for yourself.

A note: While I don't believe they should be made incompatible, I do wish I could learn Blood Magic and Reaver from somewhere else - the skills themselves may not be good or evil, but the actions that let you learn them definitly are pretty evil.  And, yes, I know it's fully avaible after unlocking it once, but still, I'd like to 'learn' it with the character who is going to use it.

[DragoonKain3]

I think people are forgetting about scale. Just like in the real world where hydrogen bombs are a major nono in warfare because of the widespread destruction it causes, in Thedas Blood Magic is frowned upon because of the large scale effect it has in comparison to the other schools.

Slinging a fireball or summoning a storm can wreak havoc in a 15m radius at best for a single mage, and they can do this with maybe only a few casts before they're exhausted. With blood magic, apparently a SINGLE skilled mage can sacrifice thousands upon thousands of lives to power up their spells, and they can do it regardless if your target is willing or not. If that isn't bad enough, they can use this power to summon hundreds upon hundreds of storms to wreak even MORE havoc on people, forcing other nations to slavery, which in turn provides more lives to fuel spells, and the cycle continues on.

You see where I'm going with this? This is exactly how almost the entirety Thedas was conquered by old Tevinter. Seriously, for all its faith in the Maker or Andraste or whatnot, the Chantry is as much, if not more as a 'treaty' for all the nations of Thedas to ban the use Blood Magic to prevent this from happening again. Hence the reason why its deemed as 'evil' when all Blood Magic really is just a means to an end.

So really, just like hydrogen bombs aren't inherently 'evil', Blood magic isn't really evil either. But fact is, misuse of blood magic has FAR more devastating consequences than other schools of magic, just like hydrogen bombs IRL is far more devastating than any other method of warfare known to man. That's why in Thedas people really frown upon blood magic, just like countries IRL frown upon the use of nukes in warfare.

Granted, nuclear power can be used for other more useful means, like generating electricity for example, but that opens up a whole other debate where whether nuclear power should be an acceptable way of generating electricity when its 'wastes' are harmful for the environment for God knows how many hundreds of years. Which to be quite frank, is beyond the scope of this thread, so I won't get into that, but that presents the same question to Blood Magic. Just like you can use nuclear power to generate electricity at the cost of harming the environment, you can use Blood Magic to stop the darkspawn at the cost of your own and/or others lives.

So does the end justifies the means? To Grey Wardens it does at least, where they don't care how they win, as long as they win. The rest of Thedas (or at least Ferelden and its Chantry) don't seem to agree with them in this regard concerning Blood Magic though...

[Victor_Meldrew]

I made Alistair a Reaver, that will really fry your noodle.

[Faohlun]

I cant tell the diffrence between entropy and blood magic even in the codex people mistake the two I cant see blood magic being evil

[wowpwnslol]

Malfurus wrote...

Bioware...I'm slightly disappointed with you. In fact I don't think you gave this much thought and I hope you remedy the problem in the future. Please, for lore sake, for balancing sake, for making sense sake, disallow some specializations and/or spells once others of the contradictory nature are learned. Why would a a Blood Mage, who uses dark and evil magic be allowed to also learn the ways of a Spirit Healer, one that draws power from the benevolent, benevolent being the key word, spirits of the fade? That doesn't add up in my mind. Can you do something about that please? 

Relax nerd. If people want to play SH/BM, let them. It's not like thier "wrong" role playing choice impacts you in some way.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

I disagree. It can be a grey area if you see it as the spirit healer wanting to strengthen their healing, and them not seeing it as bad. Then it's just seen as bad to others. They're still using the holy power/healing/whatever, they just wanted to make it stronger.



Also, if they're already using the good spirits, why not use the bad ones

[DragonShepard138]

That is the whole point of roleplaying, you can choose to make the best and most powerful character learning all sorts of abilities, or you can choose to have a very specific character strong in more specific talents staying true to their role.

[Si-Shen]

I dont know why those two choices should not be allowed to be made together, after all, shouldn't one be able to choose a more grey path? And it was mentioned, although Blood Magic is taught through demons initially, its not evil by nature. Is a stick evil? No, can it be used by someone to help another? yes, can it be used for evil? yes. Blood magic is the stick, its all about how you use it.

[CybAnt1]

Blood Magic and Reaver are so terrible and horrible you can buy books to learn them in Awakenings.



Sure, in Origins, sans a mod/hack, you couldn't learn them without making deals with demons or mad cultists. Of course, there was also the cheese exploit of saying "yes", reloading your game from an earlier save, saying "no" the 2nd time around, but bonus it's still unlocked!



However, whatever tinge of nastiness surrounded them, has been shorn in Awakening; it's just a matter of buying the instruction manual from a merchant. They're so "forbidden" and "horrible" you can learn how to do them at the corner grocer.

[TitaniumGene]

Dragon Age MMORPG imo.

[Zottle]

Blood Magic's just a school, like the other four. The chantry doesn't like it, it's powerful thus the power-hungry are drawn to using it, but that's about it. There's no reason a spirit healer can't (or won't) use BM.

Modifié par Zottle, 05 avril 2010 - 12:53 .

[AlexRD]

what i dont agree is that you can have wynne to become a blood mage, even though she is the one against blood magic. duh?

[TriggerHappy64]

Well, the chantry aside, a certain mage in a certain DLC seems to use blood magic in a very inhumane way which I would see as infringing upon the freedoms of others. Furthermore, it is the whole reason for the problem that you're sent in to correct. Also, since it is knowledge gathered from demons, demons who despise the living and are always trying to cross into the mortal realm, how can it be considered good? How can one justify knowledge learned from an evil being as neutral or even good? I can't think of one instance in the game lore or story where blood magic is considered as a "shade of grey" by any of the game's characters. I don't think there is one instance where blood magic is used to do good (well maybe one, but that problem even started because of blood magic). It's hard to argue in the "no spoilers" forum...

[joey_mork84]

Short post to simply answer the title:



Blood Mage and Spirit Healer CAN GO TOGETHER.. If the player so chooses.. That's what makes it an RPG.

[Boredmad]

TriggerHappy64 wrote...

Well, the chantry aside, a certain mage in a certain DLC seems to use blood magic in a very inhumane way which I would see as infringing upon the freedoms of others. Furthermore, it is the whole reason for the problem that you're sent in to correct. Also, since it is knowledge gathered from demons, demons who despise the living and are always trying to cross into the mortal realm, how can it be considered good? How can one justify knowledge learned from an evil being as neutral or even good? I can't think of one instance in the game lore or story where blood magic is considered as a "shade of grey" by any of the game's characters. I don't think there is one instance where blood magic is used to do good (well maybe one, but that problem even started because of blood magic). It's hard to argue in the "no spoilers" forum...

Outside the original source of Blood Magic being the less savory spirits of the fade how is the school anymore evil than any other. There are spells that alter the enemies mind, drain health, and drain residual life energy within Entropy, magi can animate the dead using spirit, kill with primal and arcane, and even creation has less savory spells. Each and every school of magic can be used for good and evil. Blood Magic is no different it's a tool no different than any other. It isn't inherently evil no more than a sword is inherently evil how it is used is completely up to the user.