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Synthesis is an Abomination:


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#276
jstme

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Rifneno wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Unfortunately, Shep has no input on the Reapers in Synthesis, Shep is dead.  "Control" allows Shepard to manage the Reapers, Synthesis does nothing of the sort.

Wich begs the question - what ARE the Reapers exactly in Synthesis?  Alive, but uncontrolled?  Do they have personalities?  If so, are their personalities domineering like Harbinger and Sovereign?  Are they each the embodiment of the species they were created from?  If so, what if that species was warlike, aggressive and expansionist, like the Krogan, Yagh or Batarians?

If the Reapers are uncontrolled, and if some are potentially aggressive or threatening to the rest of the races in the galaxy, what can stop them?  Could we see a Reaper civil war?


Don't be silly!  Everyone gets along forever and there's no more war or fighting or anything because bugs have bluetooth.  It makes complete sense!

Actually, in a weird sense, it makes sense. Everyone has in-built wifi so they all sit in internet forums (or worse - facebook and twitter) and do not have time for war.
Galaxy-wide peace - inevitable 

#277
Eterna

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Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organic vs synthetic conflict.

#278
jstme

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Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organics.

Fixed. You can thank me later.

#279
Eterna

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jstme wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organics.

Fixed. You can thank me later.


You're an idiot. 

#280
Rifneno

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Eterna5 wrote...

jstme wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organics.

Fixed. You can thank me later.


You're an idiot. 


He's right, if you actually paid attention.

#281
Humakt83

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Humakt83 wrote...

All you ever need to know about synthesis:

Shepard: "Reapers are machines, why they need humans at all?"
EDI: "Incorrect. Reapers are sapient constructs, a hybrid of organic and inorganic material."
EDI: "Exact construction methods are unclear but it seems probable that the Reapers have absorbed the essence of the species, utilizing it in their reproduction process."


Modifié par Humakt83, 24 décembre 2012 - 10:34 .


#282
Eterna

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Rifneno wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

jstme wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organics.

Fixed. You can thank me later.


You're an idiot. 


He's right, if you actually paid attention.


Not in the way he is implying. 

#283
Reorte

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wich begs the question - what ARE the Reapers exactly in Synthesis?  Alive, but uncontrolled?  Do they have personalities?  If so, are their personalities domineering like Harbinger and Sovereign?  Are they each the embodiment of the species they were created from?  If so, what if that species was warlike, aggressive and expansionist, like the Krogan, Yagh or Batarians?

The limited sample we get to speak to (Sovereign, Harbinger, the one we kill on Rannoch) all seem pretty similar in that regard and also act like they're acting independently enough, even if they've got to answer to the Catalyst. Shepard was right when (s)he told the Rannoch Reaper that whatever species was used to create them was long dead. Which makes sense - if you're going to create a big nasty machine to do your bidding you create one that's entirely in agreement with you so you don't need to keep it on a leash. If the Reapers turn friendly it's because they're either being coerced or have had their personalities completely replaced (which, to an individual at least, is as good as killing them and using their body for something else, husk-like).

Not a bunch that you want roaming around the galaxy doing whatever they want.

#284
Xamufam

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inversevideo wrote...

 The inclusion of synthesis goes beyond space magic, it actually breaks the logic of the Reapers existence.

Writer Arthur C. Clarke proposed that any civilization sufficiently advanced would have technology that is indistiguishable from magic.  

And that is the crux of the problem introduced by Starkid with synthesis.
Just how advanced would a technology need to be in order to combine
Shepard's DNA with all living things, galaxy wide, and with machines? 

Scientists have thought about the issue of advanced civilizations and their
theoretical capabilities, and even how to classify advancements.

The Kardashev
scale is a general method of classifying how technologically advanced a
civilization is. It was first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet astronomer
Nikolai Kardashev.

Kardashev defined three levels of civilizations, based on the order of magnitude and the amount of power available to them:

 
Type I: "Technological level close to the level presently (here
referring to 1964) attained on earth, with energy consumption at ≈4×1019
erg/sec[2] (4 × 1012 watts.) Guillermo A. Lemarchand stated this as "A
level near contemporary terrestrial civilization with an energy
capability equivalent to the solar insolation on Earth, between 1016 and
10 17 watts."[3]

Type II: "A civilization capable of harnessing the energy radiated by its own star (for example, the stage
of successful construction of a Dyson sphere), with energy consumption
at ≈4×1033 erg/sec.[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A civilization capable
of utilizing and channeling the entire radiation output of its star.
The energy utilization would then be comparable to the luminosity of our
Sun, about 4 × 1026 watts."[3]

Type III: "A civilization in possession of energy on the scale of its own galaxy, with energy
consumption at≈4×1044 erg/sec."[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A
civilization with access to the power comparable to the luminosity of
the entire Milky Way galaxy, about 4 × 1037 Watts."[3]

A fourth classification, Type IV, was added by Profesor Dr. Zoltan Galantai, and expanded upon by the late astrophysicist Carl Sagan, and also by theoretical physicist Dr. Michio Kaku. A Type IV civilization controls the energy output of the visible universe.

Another extension, to the Kardashev scale, was introduced by theoretical physicist and mathematician Dr. John D. Barrow who has postualated that civilizations may also and/or instead, focus on the micro rather than the macro.

"Type I-minus is capable of manipulating objects over the scale of
themselves: building structures, mining, joining and breaking solids; 

Type II-minus is capable of manipulating genes and altering the development
of living things, transplanting or replacing parts of
themselves, reading and engineering their genetic code; 

Type III-minus is capable of manipulating molecules and molecular bonds, creating new materials; 

Type IV-minus is capable of manipulating individual atoms, creating
nanotechnologies on the atomic scale and creating complex forms of
artificial life; 

Type V-minus is capable of manipulating the atomic nucleus and engineering the nucleons that compose it; 

Type VI-minus is capable of manipulating the most elementary particles of
matter (quarks and leptons) to create organized complexity among
populations of elementary particles; 

Type Omega-minus is capable of manipulating the basic structure of space and time"

Which brings us back to Synthesis. In order for Starkid to effect Synthesis,
and use Shepard's DNA to combine living tissue, plants, animals, both
levo-protein races (Asari, Human) and dextro-protein species (Quarians),
with non-organic technology,  Starkid, would need to understand and
have access to technology at the level of either a Type IV or Type
IV-minus civilization.

This would make Starkid a 'god'. To paraphrase Kirk 'what does god want with Shepard?'  

If Starkid has that type of power, the power of a Type IV or TypeIV-minus
civilization, then nothing, even Leviathan, nothing in the galaxy could
oppose him. At that level Starkid is truly invincible. The denizens of
the galaxy would be like amoeba in comparison to Starkid.

There
would be no reason for the Reapers.In fact the war would be over before
we knew there was supposed to be a war. Starkid could usurp Shepard's
DNA, enact Synthesis, and it would be a done deal.One moment human, the
next transhuman, with no explanation of how it was done.

 If the
designers, of the Crucible, were a type IV or Type Iv-minus
civilization, they would have far outpaced the Reapers and Starkid, and
would have destroyed or neutralized the threat.  

If the plans,
for the Crucible, originated with a Type IV civilization, why not just
outright help? Why give a super WMD to the, in comparison to them,
'amoeba'?

If Leviathan originated the Crucible, and the Crucible
is a tool made by a Type IV or Type IV-minus civilization, then
Leviathan are that Civilization, and they should not be running from
anything.  

And so at best, the introduction of Synthesis has created a paradox.

Why go through endless cycles of harvesting, when you have the power of creation?

It can't be nanites: there is not enough matter in the galaxy to
support a nanite wave that big.
the only way for synthesis to exist is atomic manipulation & to get that you have to have the secrets of the universe

Modifié par Troxa, 25 décembre 2012 - 11:09 .


#285
wac2791

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Wayning_Star wrote...

wac2791 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

 I find it odd that the highest EMS would grant you the option, Synthesis. Having replayed the whole series over again recently, the final epic in the series was about uniting the various races and overcoming the odds, together. 

The beauty of society is that we each bring something unique to the table. Synthesis essentially takes all of that away, and though it may be more efficient, it removes that in born want of a better existence. We strive to better ourselves, and that experience makes us stronger.

And of course, as Uncle Ben once said, "With power comes great responsibility." Had it just been handed to us (with or without our consent), it would create chaos, similar to rewarding a child for doing nothing.

Why? Because we didn't earn it, and most of all, it would have been the biggest troll of the Reapers yet. Essentially, it would have made us just like them. Maybe not in the same form, but it would remove that unique beauty that is our universe.

That said, for me the right choice would be Destroy. I loved EDI and Legion, however, their existence was a detriment to society. If you think I'm wrong, consider the Geth merging themselves with the Quarians suits, to "help" them develop better antibodies, etc. Without Destroy, the cycle would continue, albeit in a new form.

((Discuss))


I didn't read anything but the first post, but as a PS3 player who FINALLY finished his first playthrough of the first game, I'm never picking Synthesis again. I didn't understand that picking that option was essentially what Saren and by extension Sovereign wanted all along. The Reapers have you all the way to the end if you choose synthesis it seems. I don't necessarily like the endings all that much, but if it IS an ending where the reapers truly win, I quietly think that the ending might be either ridiculously stupid or somewhat brilliant that after fighting them for 3 games and countless battles, your logic fails and you succumb to what they wanted in the first place (or what they COULD want in the first place...What Sovereign wanted)...


I cannot help but suspect this post is patently untrue.


I legitimately have no way to respond to that. I don't know what you mean... 
"Patently untrue?" Huh?

I will say that my thoughts were sort've off the cuff and not thought out too much...but the way Saren described what he wanted, it was 100% synthesis to me...and I figured since he was being manipulated by Sovereign, maybe that was a possible goal or thought Sovereign had. Maybe it was just a delusion Saren wanted to believe in spite of what he was doing for Sovereign...IDK...

Modifié par wac2791, 25 décembre 2012 - 01:32 .


#286
Sejborg

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wac2791 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

wac2791 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

 I find it odd that the highest EMS would grant you the option, Synthesis. Having replayed the whole series over again recently, the final epic in the series was about uniting the various races and overcoming the odds, together. 

The beauty of society is that we each bring something unique to the table. Synthesis essentially takes all of that away, and though it may be more efficient, it removes that in born want of a better existence. We strive to better ourselves, and that experience makes us stronger.

And of course, as Uncle Ben once said, "With power comes great responsibility." Had it just been handed to us (with or without our consent), it would create chaos, similar to rewarding a child for doing nothing.

Why? Because we didn't earn it, and most of all, it would have been the biggest troll of the Reapers yet. Essentially, it would have made us just like them. Maybe not in the same form, but it would remove that unique beauty that is our universe.

That said, for me the right choice would be Destroy. I loved EDI and Legion, however, their existence was a detriment to society. If you think I'm wrong, consider the Geth merging themselves with the Quarians suits, to "help" them develop better antibodies, etc. Without Destroy, the cycle would continue, albeit in a new form.

((Discuss))


I didn't read anything but the first post, but as a PS3 player who FINALLY finished his first playthrough of the first game, I'm never picking Synthesis again. I didn't understand that picking that option was essentially what Saren and by extension Sovereign wanted all along. The Reapers have you all the way to the end if you choose synthesis it seems. I don't necessarily like the endings all that much, but if it IS an ending where the reapers truly win, I quietly think that the ending might be either ridiculously stupid or somewhat brilliant that after fighting them for 3 games and countless battles, your logic fails and you succumb to what they wanted in the first place (or what they COULD want in the first place...What Sovereign wanted)...


I cannot help but suspect this post is patently untrue.


I legitimately have no way to respond to that. I don't know what you mean... 
"Patently untrue?" Huh?

I will say that my thoughts were sort've off the cuff and not thought out too much...but the way Saren described what he wanted, it was 100% synthesis to me...and I figured since he was being manipulated by Sovereign, maybe that was a possible goal or thought Sovereign had. Maybe it was just a delusion Saren wanted to believe in spite of what he was doing for Sovereign...IDK...

Sovereing was indoctrinated. He fought for something that he could never have. But he believed it was possible, and that's what Sovereign benefitted from. Saren was doing alot of the work on his own. Sovereign just had to slighty adjust him now and then. If it was against what everything Saren believed in, Sovereign would have to take a more 'hands on' approach and ultimately turn Saren into a husk.

Sovereign was never going to just say: "Allright, thank you very much for helping me open the relay, now we will synthesise." No. Sovereign and the reapers were still going to perform the harvest. But Saren believed the reapers sweet lies. :)

Modifié par Sejborg, 25 décembre 2012 - 02:35 .


#287
fr33stylez

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Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organic vs synthetic conflict.

My question: Why do I need to alter every living being in the galaxy to solve one conflict, a conflict which cannot be even confirmed as even existing in the ME universe? A conflict that suddenly usurps the original conflict of the trilogy - The Reapers?

#288
The Night Mammoth

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fr33stylez wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organic vs synthetic conflict.

My question: Why do I need to alter every living being in the galaxy to solve one conflict, a conflict which cannot be even confirmed as even existing in the ME universe? A conflict that suddenly usurps the original conflict of the trilogy - The Reapers?


No data available.

#289
TheJediSaint

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Synthesis doesn't create galatic wide peace, it just ends the organic vs synthetic conflict.

My question: Why do I need to alter every living being in the galaxy to solve one conflict, a conflict which cannot be even confirmed as even existing in the ME universe? A conflict that suddenly usurps the original conflict of the trilogy - The Reapers?


No data available.


Writer fiat?

#290
spotlessvoid

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Image IPB

Synthesis. Legit.

#291
spockjedi

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My stomach can't handle Synthesis. It's worse than Dead Space or Mortal Kombat.

#292
Guest_Ashep123_*

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Synthesis stops the cycle.

#293
ziloe

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Ashep123 wrote...

Synthesis stops the cycle.


No, it doesn't. What about all the other galaxies who aren't synthesized? What happens to them, when a synthesized race finds them? Or even the Reapers who no longer have a real purpose? How do we know that now with freewill, those very Reapers won't just move on to do this elsewhere.

Modifié par ziloe, 25 décembre 2012 - 03:05 .


#294
SSPBOURNE

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It's been 9 months. We are well aware.

#295
Ieldra

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Intergalactic considerations are beyond the scope of the ME trilogy. The story is about what happens to our galaxy. Likely, intergalactic travel lies so far in the future that it doesn't need consideration at this time. Like in other highly speculative scenarios, there are too many other variables influencing possible scenarios.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 décembre 2012 - 03:21 .


#296
Wayning_Star

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ziloe wrote...

Ashep123 wrote...

Synthesis stops the cycle.


No, it doesn't. What about all the other galaxies who aren't synthesized? What happens to them, when a synthesized race finds them? Or even the Reapers who no longer have a real purpose? How do we know that now with freewill, those very Reapers won't just move on to do this elsewhere.


The reapers are/well actually 'were' ran by the catalyst experiment to find the end of the chaos. Once that's accomplished, there is NO need to harvest. End of reaper threat.

Also, the fini and resolution could be sent out to other beings that can/should receive them to explain the dangers of hapless creation of synthetic life,especially the concept of demeaning of life, no matter what it's consisting of. There will undoubtedly be other apex races existing out in deep space, may even be ones that cannot be defeated, nor can anyone/thing co exist with them. So the answers garnered from the MEU experiment by nature may/or need not apply.

The reapers free will is dependent on their contents, how that might affect their function as 'free' agents. Apparently, Shep has had something to 'say' about it, eventhough it's not touched on within the story, other than some sort of massive communication with all concerned. Everyone/thing has it's CPU set on "share". So it's just another interesting mystery.

#297
Wayning_Star

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Intergalactic considerations are beyond the scope of the ME trilogy. The story is about what happens to our galaxy. Likely, intergalactic travel lies so far in the future that it doesn't need consideration at this time. Like in other highly speculative scenarios, there are too many other variables influencing possible scenarios.


probably why the gov is remiss of informing the unwashed masses of any viablility of sentient guided UFO/extra terrestrials. Now that we're "only human", but are exploring, say, Mars... the odds are good that other 'life' can probably do the same thing.. or worse/better.. Uh oh...(everyone!! Quick!!!, key in your alien implants Today. :)

#298
ziloe

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Wayning_Star wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Intergalactic considerations are beyond the scope of the ME trilogy. The story is about what happens to our galaxy. Likely, intergalactic travel lies so far in the future that it doesn't need consideration at this time. Like in other highly speculative scenarios, there are too many other variables influencing possible scenarios.


probably why the gov is remiss of informing the unwashed masses of any viablility of sentient guided UFO/extra terrestrials. Now that we're "only human", but are exploring, say, Mars... the odds are good that other 'life' can probably do the same thing.. or worse/better.. Uh oh...(everyone!! Quick!!!, key in your alien implants Today. :)


Nah, we're good. If aliens know about us, we're probably like the south of the US, where the high council make fun of us at intergalactic board meetings, and everyone will want to leave us alone.

"Did you see what earth did today?"
"No, what?"
"They put some rover on mars. Can you believe it? They're trying to find *makes quotations* signs of life."
"Oh, humans."
"I know, right? Everyone and their mother knows that world was decimated in a nuclear holocaust."
*All of them pompously laugh*

Modifié par ziloe, 25 décembre 2012 - 04:12 .


#299
Han Shot First

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Even ignoring the moral implications of Synthesis, it disappoints in being a stalemate ending. The Reaper War ends with an intact Reaper fleet that has not been defeated in the 'field,' with the original Catalyst still firmly at the helm, and without either side in the conflict having achieved their main war aim of destroying the other.

#300
kal_reegar

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Wayning_Star wrote...
The reapers are/well actually 'were' ran by the catalyst experiment to find the end of the chaos. Once that's accomplished, there is NO need to harvest. End of reaper threat.


No need to harvest, but the reaper can still be a threat.

like the krogan or the rachni or the prothean. They are by far the strongest race now. They can become hegemonic, if they want.