1009 réponses à ce sujet

[Brownfinger]

Total agreement, Synthesis is nightmarish.

The whole "join us, it's bliiiissss" aspect, with no real choice given to the galaxy.
I love this game, and Synthesis is still profoundly creepy. Although it's apparently  the final evolutionary stage of organic life, or close to it, I'm not sure that obtaining it through outside means is the way to go about it. Maybe we lack the proper enlightenment to really understand techno-organic perfection, but yeah. Easily the most disturbing ending ever.

[Rifneno]

Brownfinger wrote...

Total agreement, Synthesis is nightmarish.

The whole "join us, it's bliiiissss" aspect, with no real choice given to the galaxy.
I love this game, and Synthesis is still profoundly creepy. Although it's apparently  the final evolutionary stage of organic life, or close to it, I'm not sure that obtaining it through outside means is the way to go about it. Maybe we lack the proper enlightenment to really understand techno-organic perfection, but yeah. Easily the most disturbing ending ever.

But duuuude!  Evolution is just a theory!  </sarcasm>

[Brownfinger]

Hehe.

It scares me when people say that (and actually mean it). I don't wish any specific harm to anyone, but if they were to be hit with a science book and somehow become less narrow individuals through osmosis, I wouldn't object.

[Meltemph]

The moral argument... I don't understand why people want to make this the focal point when there is much more wrong with it then that. The ending is just down right silly, a convoluted mess. Giving it moral implications is the equivalent of giving it more credit then it is deserving.

Modifié par Meltemph, 26 décembre 2012 - 08:03 .

[ziloe]

Meltemph wrote...

The moral argument... I don't understand why people want to make this the focal point when there is much more wrong with it then that. The ending is just down right silly, a convoluted mess. Giving it moral implications is the equivalent of giving it more credit then it is deserving.

I talk about the moral aspect, because the other stuff has been done a lot more already. I also love philosophy, and wanted to share my thoughts on the subject, and see where other people stood as well. 

And yes, in general, the endings sucked. But after playing through the whole series in this last month, it was an interesting experience knowing how it was all going to end, anyway.

[Xilizhra]

I admit, I don't quite comprehend emotionally why people say that Synthesis is inherently that disturbing. I can understand people not liking the means, which weren't well-implemented, but I see nothing wrong with the concept itself.

[Nette]

[Andromidius]

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, I don't quite comprehend emotionally why people say that Synthesis is inherently that disturbing. I can understand people not liking the means, which weren't well-implemented, but I see nothing wrong with the concept itself.

So being changed against your will into something different isn't disturbing?

And being changed against your will by beings that have been busy slaughtering, butchering, mutilating and essentially 'necromising' for billions of years isn't something that should be horrific to even consider?

...okay.

[Xilizhra]

Andromidius wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, I don't quite comprehend emotionally why people say that Synthesis is inherently that disturbing. I can understand people not liking the means, which weren't well-implemented, but I see nothing wrong with the concept itself.

So being changed against your will into something different isn't disturbing?

And being changed against your will by beings that have been busy slaughtering, butchering, mutilating and essentially 'necromising' for billions of years isn't something that should be horrific to even consider?

...okay.

My will is highly open to change. In any case, I doubt it'd be an unpleasant experience; from what we see of it, it certainly doesn't seem to be. If one becomes mentally integrated with one's changes at the exact instant one was changed to begin with, it'd cause no true emotional difficulty.

[ziloe]

Xilizhra wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, I don't quite comprehend emotionally why people say that Synthesis is inherently that disturbing. I can understand people not liking the means, which weren't well-implemented, but I see nothing wrong with the concept itself.

So being changed against your will into something different isn't disturbing?

And being changed against your will by beings that have been busy slaughtering, butchering, mutilating and essentially 'necromising' for billions of years isn't something that should be horrific to even consider?

...okay.

My will is highly open to change. In any case, I doubt it'd be an unpleasant experience; from what we see of it, it certainly doesn't seem to be. If one becomes mentally integrated with one's changes at the exact instant one was changed to begin with, it'd cause no true emotional difficulty.

And who are you to say that? What, because they showed us a few nice pictures, problems can't possibly exist? 

Look at real life and how they display people in movies, with good jobs, etc. There's a complete disparity between that and real life. The same with those pictures we were shown. They only show one side, because the writers didn't choose to show the negatives in another. 

If anything, renegade should have shown it, just to change it up a little.

[Ieldra]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Except that Synthesis doesn't destroy diversity. so that argument falls flat. Repeating it a hundred thousand times won't change what is shown in the epilogue, namely, that species and individuals appear very much like themselves. It's been months and I have yet to see any evidence for that claim.

The original ending carried the theme but provided no compelling evidence either way. The EC doesn't even carry the theme any more.

No bad consequences are shown, so it must be okay!

Sounds more reasonable to me than dismissing the good things shown and insisting everything is bad.

Having said that, the epilogue is a five-minute history show covering two hundred years. Even a five-year war between two star systems wouldn't necessarily be significant enough to make it into that show. So yeah, I can believe the epilogue, as it shows us a generally bright future but doesn't insist that absolutely everything is good. You even have the "some are slow to see the benefits" if you don't cure the genophage.

[Xilizhra]

And who are you to say that? What, because they showed us a few nice pictures, problems can't possibly exist?

Look at real life and how they display people in movies, with good jobs, etc. There's a complete disparity between that and real life. The same with those pictures we were shown. They only show one side, because the writers didn't choose to show the negatives in another.

If anything, renegade should have shown it, just to change it up a little.

So you openly say that there must be problems; moreover, there must be the exact kinds of problems you say there are, because... well, just because?

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, I don't quite comprehend emotionally why people say that Synthesis is inherently that disturbing. I can understand people not liking the means, which weren't well-implemented, but I see nothing wrong with the concept itself.

We agree on something?

[nataleighjvr]

So can EDI and Joker make baby bots now???

[Galbrant]

Nette wrote...

Ha!

[Wayning_Star]

Troxa wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

 The inclusion of synthesis goes beyond space magic, it actually breaks the logic of the Reapers existence.

Writer Arthur C. Clarke proposed that any civilization sufficiently advanced would have technology that is indistiguishable from magic.  

And that is the crux of the problem introduced by Starkid with synthesis.
Just how advanced would a technology need to be in order to combine
Shepard's DNA with all living things, galaxy wide, and with machines? 

Scientists have thought about the issue of advanced civilizations and their
theoretical capabilities, and even how to classify advancements.

The Kardashev
scale is a general method of classifying how technologically advanced a
civilization is. It was first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet astronomer
Nikolai Kardashev.

Kardashev defined three levels of civilizations, based on the order of magnitude and the amount of power available to them:

 
Type I: "Technological level close to the level presently (here
referring to 1964) attained on earth, with energy consumption at ≈4×1019
erg/sec[2] (4 × 1012 watts.) Guillermo A. Lemarchand stated this as "A
level near contemporary terrestrial civilization with an energy
capability equivalent to the solar insolation on Earth, between 1016 and
10 17 watts."[3]

Type II: "A civilization capable of harnessing the energy radiated by its own star (for example, the stage
of successful construction of a Dyson sphere), with energy consumption
at ≈4×1033 erg/sec.[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A civilization capable
of utilizing and channeling the entire radiation output of its star.
The energy utilization would then be comparable to the luminosity of our
Sun, about 4 × 1026 watts."[3]

Type III: "A civilization in possession of energy on the scale of its own galaxy, with energy
consumption at≈4×1044 erg/sec."[2] Lemarchand stated this as "A
civilization with access to the power comparable to the luminosity of
the entire Milky Way galaxy, about 4 × 1037 Watts."[3]

A fourth classification, Type IV, was added by Profesor Dr. Zoltan Galantai, and expanded upon by the late astrophysicist Carl Sagan, and also by theoretical physicist Dr. Michio Kaku. A Type IV civilization controls the energy output of the visible universe.

Another extension, to the Kardashev scale, was introduced by theoretical physicist and mathematician Dr. John D. Barrow who has postualated that civilizations may also and/or instead, focus on the micro rather than the macro.

"Type I-minus is capable of manipulating objects over the scale of
themselves: building structures, mining, joining and breaking solids; 

Type II-minus is capable of manipulating genes and altering the development
of living things, transplanting or replacing parts of
themselves, reading and engineering their genetic code; 

Type III-minus is capable of manipulating molecules and molecular bonds, creating new materials; 

Type IV-minus is capable of manipulating individual atoms, creating
nanotechnologies on the atomic scale and creating complex forms of
artificial life; 

Type V-minus is capable of manipulating the atomic nucleus and engineering the nucleons that compose it; 

Type VI-minus is capable of manipulating the most elementary particles of
matter (quarks and leptons) to create organized complexity among
populations of elementary particles; 

Type Omega-minus is capable of manipulating the basic structure of space and time"

Which brings us back to Synthesis. In order for Starkid to effect Synthesis,
and use Shepard's DNA to combine living tissue, plants, animals, both
levo-protein races (Asari, Human) and dextro-protein species (Quarians),
with non-organic technology,  Starkid, would need to understand and
have access to technology at the level of either a Type IV or Type
IV-minus civilization.

This would make Starkid a 'god'. To paraphrase Kirk 'what does god want with Shepard?'  

If Starkid has that type of power, the power of a Type IV or TypeIV-minus
civilization, then nothing, even Leviathan, nothing in the galaxy could
oppose him. At that level Starkid is truly invincible. The denizens of
the galaxy would be like amoeba in comparison to Starkid.

There
would be no reason for the Reapers.In fact the war would be over before
we knew there was supposed to be a war. Starkid could usurp Shepard's
DNA, enact Synthesis, and it would be a done deal.One moment human, the
next transhuman, with no explanation of how it was done.

 If the
designers, of the Crucible, were a type IV or Type Iv-minus
civilization, they would have far outpaced the Reapers and Starkid, and
would have destroyed or neutralized the threat.  

If the plans,
for the Crucible, originated with a Type IV civilization, why not just
outright help? Why give a super WMD to the, in comparison to them,
'amoeba'?

If Leviathan originated the Crucible, and the Crucible
is a tool made by a Type IV or Type IV-minus civilization, then
Leviathan are that Civilization, and they should not be running from
anything.  

And so at best, the introduction of Synthesis has created a paradox.

Why go through endless cycles of harvesting, when you have the power of creation?

It can't be nanites: there is not enough matter in the galaxy to
support a nanite wave that big.
the only way for synthesis to exist is atomic manipulation & to get that you have to have the secrets of the universe & a race that have that would have destroyed the reapers without blinking.

actually, the ' destroyed the reapers without blinking' isn't part of any 'cosmic' equation. The universe it's self may do that by chance alone, but NO race as advanced would consider 'destruction' as that would limit their ability to understand them selves.  This is a common organic trait to explain their fears as reality barters their existence.

For such advanced society, "life" would take a different meaning, just as Shepard was resurrected, no one complains about it at all, eventhough it makes Shep seem like a natural 'cheat code, in of themselves. For the aforementioned apex races, there would probably be more effort in even noticing the reapers, muchless dealing with the confused entities.

[Yate]

I don't see it...

[Wayning_Star]

Yate wrote...




I don't see it...

there's probably stranger beings out in unknow areas of deep space.

[Wayning_Star]

Yate wrote...




I don't see it...

there's probably stranger beings out in unknown areas of deep space.

[clennon8]

I prefer to avoid giving Synthesis the respect of discussing it as if it were a "real" ending. It's an indoctrination ending. Whether or not the concept of Synthesis is moral, transhumanistic, abominable, or whatever, is irrelevant.

[Sejborg]

nataleighjvr wrote...

So can EDI and Joker make baby bots now???

I don't think so. 

[ATiBotka]

clennon8 wrote...

It's an indoctrination ending.

Nope...

[Yate]

clennon8 wrote...

I prefer to avoid giving Synthesis the respect of discussing it as if it were a "real" ending. It's an indoctrination ending. Whether or not the concept of Synthesis is moral, transhumanistic, abominable, or whatever, is irrelevant.

really?

just... really?

[ATiBotka]

Yate wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I prefer to avoid giving Synthesis the respect of discussing it as if it were a "real" ending. It's an indoctrination ending. Whether or not the concept of Synthesis is moral, transhumanistic, abominable, or whatever, is irrelevant.

really?

just... really?

Really.

[clennon8]

Yep. Really.